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Thread: [Amendment] The Proconsuls

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    Default [Amendment] The Proconsuls

    This proposal was born of an attempt to write the Modding Curator proposal into constitutional text. I've since decided the same premise with a wider execution and different details is more practical. As far as urgency, value and so forth, this office is proposed to give an opportunity for people to expressly volunteer and help out, and does not come with inherent obligations to be filled. It is intended to be flexible so we create (or remove) what we need at a given time; to that end three starting positions are suggested in the amending text as primary areas of Curial reach. It is intended that this unique office be able to expand or contract to fill the need, without requiring constant amendments for these offices to exist. It also provides naming consistency, life to the curial operations forum (politia) and some manner of structure for the Curia to be productive unto itself with consequences reaching to the wider site.

    This office is the Proconsul, designed to hold people who dedicate to particular niches of the Curia for their improvement and operation. Unique powers are few, these users are encouraged to do their best with a citizen's natural abilities - given direction, I'd say that can be quite a lot. They hold a badge and group named Proconsul. They may be extension to, but not replacements of the Consul's abilities and reach. However if someone is elected to a Proconsul position, the Consul and Censors should assist them or at least not try to micromanage them. Ie, a proconsul of an area should be considered first, Consul second unless there is no proconsul available. See, the Proconsul office need only be filled when someone asks - it is not mandatory to fill it at a given time.

    Personally I think the idea is worth trying, but this is more of a 'what do you think' proposal and not something I will stress too heavily over, save to correct noted errors and make reasonable adjustments to its function.

    Constitutional revisions;
    Section 1, Article 2

    Citizens elect and can run for9 the following Curial Officer positions: Consul, and Magistrates.,and Proconsul.10

    The Consul acts as a local moderator of the Curia and its related fora and is responsible for ensuring the Curia's day-to-day tasks are accomplished. Two Censors, appointed by the Consul, assist with Curial tasks and review referrals from Curial infractions.11 Magistrates review Moderation actions in the Tribunal. 7 Proconsuls act as leaders for a specific function of the Curia and are entrusted to promote, maintain and innovate upon their chosen field with whatever reasonable strategies they deem fit.13

    The following electable fields for Proconsul are recognized by the Curia:


    • Proconsul of Awards: Elected to help in the fair distribution of Curial Awards to all deserving members, including to those less known in the forum and addressing conflicts in language and standards when they arise through amendments, suggestions and initiative.
    • Proconsul of History: Elected to oversee the Living History forum as well as help compile, preserve and present historical information about the Site.
    • Proconsul of Diplomacy: Elected to support the Curia's outreach, image and the principle award of Citizenship itself for those deserving.


    Section 1 R&P
    [...]

    10 Consuls, and Magistrates and Proconsuls are elected for four months from the day of their election. Censors are appointed to serve alongside the same term as the Consul but may be reappointed by future Consuls. Incumbent Magistrates remain in office at least until their successor has been elected, unless they actively resign or are removed from office. Proconsuls remain in office until their successor has been elected, but if the application time is extended and no citizen applies or no one is successfully elected, the office shall fall dormant until an election request is made to the Consul. This request becomes a new election with the requestor as the first applicant.

    11 Censors are appointed positions and as such the Consul is responsible for overseeing their activities.

    12 If the Consul is absent (has not logged into the site) for seven days without giving a notice of absence, is absent for more than fifteen days regardless of notice, resigns, or is subject to a successful Vote of No Confidence (VoNC), they are automatically removed from office along with any appointed censors. Any decisions of the office shall be held over until a replacement is elected. When such a decision is time-limited, time from the moment the office is empty does not count towards the limit until a new Consul is elected. When the office of the Consul is empty, The Censors will organize the election of a new Consul, and assume day-to-day administration of the Curia. Stipulating that the Consul or Censors may act, the same principles apply to the office(s) of Proconsul.13

    13 The Proconsuls are not bound to specific actions or activity, though should seek to achieve the spirit of office they are elected for. While they are not and should not be considered local moderators of the Curia, they are entitled to access the Politia and they may request local moderator rights with agreement from the Consul and overseeing Hex in areas where they have a clear clerical scope. These rights may not be used for any purpose other than the housekeeping that is explicitly permitted in their field.

    Section 2 R&P
    [...]

    Applicants for Curial offices must meet the minimum requirements of the position:

    • Consul - citizenship for at least three months; cannot have received a Curial or Moderation Warning for at least one month
    • Censor - citizenship for at least one month; cannot have received a Curial Warning for at least one month and must not have any active moderation warnings
    • Magistrate - citizenship for at least three months; cannot have received a Curial or Moderation Warning for at least six months; must not be a current staff moderator or tribune.
    • Proconsul - citizenship for at least two months; cannot have received a Curial or Moderation Warning for at least one month


    [...]

    6 Where more than one of the same position is vacant, the procedure is the same, and the members with the highest votes are elected. In the case of ties, a run off vote is held between the tied members lasting three days. If there is only one applicant, a ratification vote is held with options "Yes", "No", and "Abstain".

    If a Curial Officer wins an election for another Curial Office, they are required to immediately resign their original Curial Office. An election for the vacant Curial Office will be held. Proconsul cannot overlap with another Curial office, but they may hold title for up to two fields at a time. Which offices they hold at a time must be accessible, updated information through the Curia forum.

    [...]
    Section 4, Article 2

    TWC's Living History Forum exists as a place where the extensive history of Total War Center may be catalogued and chronicled. It is overseen by the Consul. and, if elected, the Proconsul of History.
    Last edited by Dismounted Feudal Knight; November 22, 2021 at 10:16 AM. Reason: ins, del and some little nonsense errors along the way
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    Default Re: [Amendment] The Proconsuls

    Just a technical tip: wrap your green into [ins] tags and the removed stuff into [del] tags - the normal format used for this. The red highlight in your text will be read as part of a sentence, distorting the meaning of your changes or at least requiring a conscious effort to ignore.

    Citizens elect and can run for9 the following Curial Officer positions: Consul, and Magistrates.,and Proconsul.10

    versus

    Citizens elect and can run for9 the following Curial Officer positions: Consul, and Magistrates.,and Proconsul.10
    Last edited by Gigantus; November 21, 2021 at 06:51 AM.




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    Default Re: [Amendment] The Proconsuls

    I thought there was something like that; noted and changed
    pesky twc socialite, wandering 'knight' and dreamer

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    Default Re: [Amendment] The Proconsuls





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    Default Re: [Amendment] The Proconsuls

    Support.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] The Proconsuls

    support, I can see myself sitting on the Proconsul of Diplomacy's chair pretty comfortably

    one point though

    Elected to help in the fair distribution of Curial Awards
    also, it would be nice to have the specific duties broken down into a more comprehensive list (at the least partially), in order to give new Proconsuls something to begin with.
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    Default Re: [Amendment] The Proconsuls

    I like this idea, but wonder if you will be able to find enough members to keep the seats filled on a regular basis.



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    Default Re: [Amendment] The Proconsuls

    Just one question

    I know you stated the roles can be interchange, but wouldn't this fall under the "history" since interpretation is often a archiving of changes (or history of changes)???
    addressing conflicts in language and standards when they arise through amendments, suggestions and initiative.
    It seems odd to put this in the duties of the proconsul of "awards"

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    Default Re: [Amendment] The Proconsuls

    On Flinn's advisement, Curial Awards is now specified for section 1. However, I did intend to keep the language broad. I wish for candidates to put forth how they want to realize their titles, primarily through the debate thread, and take initiative to realize them. Guidance is good, but in this case I'm careful to avoid imposing limits or boundaries for what are ultimately creative, not routine posts especially at the start.

    Keeping them filled is not required, a deliberate feature of the position. They are filled as people are motivated to do them, not because they have to be.

    I'd need more details to respond to the 'history' part. As for the Awards wording, it is a nod to the current lack of consensus in the handling of curial modding awards and suggests they consider steps of various types to help with that. But the language could be simplified;


    So for either comment regarding the wording, I'm open to alternative examples.
    .
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    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: [Amendment] The Proconsuls

    Thanks

    Keeping them filled is not required, a deliberate feature of the position. They are filled as people are motivated to do them, not because they have to be.
    I very much agree with this idea, but I'm not sure if that fits well for the Curia, where every office is elected and has a specific expiration date, so to say I mean, how you described it, it's more like it is working in the Staff, at the least partially.
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    Default Re: [Amendment] The Proconsuls

    I think constitutionally, it is better to have define roles. As you said, single person can take on multiple roles.
    For Proconsul of Awards you are free to use all or part of what I outlined in my proposal. I am incline to support his proposal.
    I would move the interpretation to the History Proconsul.
    I also like the Diplomacy proconsul as well, but not in favor of the name. Perhaps Proconsul of Public Affairs.

    Alternatively, this cab be the role of all three. A discussion could resolve disagreements.
    addressing conflicts in language and standards when they arise through amendments, suggestions and initiative.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] The Proconsuls

    and addressing conflicts in language and standards when they arise through amendments, suggestions and initiative.
    I believe this should exclusively be the Consul's job. The Consul should always be the final arbiter on Constitutional interpretation.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] The Proconsuls

    Currently, The final say is the Citizenry. If the consul makes an interpretation that is not popular, then a VoNC will decide.
    If the responsibility is spread over more than one person, then no one person can be held responsible and as a result protection from a VoNC.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] The Proconsuls

    Currently, The final say is the Citizenry.
    False.


    If the responsibility is spread over more than one person, then no one person can be held responsible and as a result protection from a VoNC.
    We shouldn't be formulating a system to intentionally circumvent the possibility of a VoNC....

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    Default Re: [Amendment] The Proconsuls

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    We shouldn't be formulating a system to intentionally circumvent the possibility of a VoNC....
    I'm curious to know why?

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    Default Re: [Amendment] The Proconsuls

    Because it's incredibly unethical.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] The Proconsuls

    Part 2, now with quotes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    I very much agree with this idea, but I'm not sure if that fits well for the Curia, where every office is elected and has a specific expiration date, so to say I mean, how you described it, it's more like it is working in the Staff, at the least partially.
    If so, perhaps it's something to encourage. It might not last, it might not kick off, but a majority of this proposal is predicated on trying it out and giving it a shot either way, so long as it is clerically functional enough to not make a mess or be easy to evict if we don't care for it. In this case, partially it's shooting for an opportunity for users to found a new set of conventions and heck, culture through positions that may become entrenched as the founding members find ways to go about the tasks. A bit of a soft reset of the playing field if you will, if people are willing to try it.


    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I I would move the interpretation to the History Proconsul.
    I also like the Diplomacy proconsul as well, but not in favor of the name. Perhaps Proconsul of Public Affairs.
    The placement of the interpretations is deliberate and negotiable only with a very convincing reason to circumvent mine; that the purposes of curial positions should be clear in one place, without their fields being scattered about the Constitution. References elsewhere should only exist as far as required for continuity and official functions (ie, sharing the living history forum's jurisdiction). The split descriptions are intended to give each a focus, without treading on the already broad 'consul's assistant' function of censors, or the office of Consul itself as a largely clerical, arbitration and interpretation role. I'm open to adjustments of the descriptions (including standardizing the type of activity and just having different indicators of scope), but actually blending them together into a nondescript thing with general reach or splitting them across the constitution would run against the intentions of the proposal, and from my perspective essentially ruin it. If we want more people to just do stuff in general, we could allow for flexible censor count perhaps ranging from 2-6; I actually don't mind the idea of allowing more to exist based on need as determined by the Consul.

    As for the name, I defer to what Flinn thinks of it as the most likely person interested in it right now. What to call it in specific is discretionary.

    Another thought which I raise to input in general is to nix the idea of strictly defining scope and having Proconsulship as something to define in the election itself; what you, as a proconsul, wish to address in a Curial capacity, and letting the citizenry vote and decide if your position holds merit. Then it would be defined as long as the term lasts, and the exact scope and permissions would be set in the initial proposition without requiring amendments for the ebb and flow I referenced in the opening post. So perhaps there is a way to compromise into your take here, while retaining the 'sectional' focus and other details that split it from simply having more Censors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    I believe this should exclusively be the Consul's job. The Consul should always be the final arbiter on Constitutional interpretation.
    There may be a misunderstanding here; the Consul's job is upkeep of official content, interpretation, local moderation and so forth. Putting forth amendments, suggestions and taking initiative are things that any citizen could technically do now really, and do not imply the ability to unilaterally execute those ideas or be an arbitrator on constitutional things. Though I do believe in respective areas, some deference should be given to the Proconsul as the user elected with that area as their interest. But no constitutional functions change hands completely, at most are shared such as with the History role.

    .....

    Also, the easiest way to circumvent a VonC is not doing anything that would a) justify a legitimate VonC or indeed b) needlessly antagonize, since it's hard for even an illegitimate VonC to come about unless you have a controversial enough brand. No need to introduce extra functions beyond what is being discussed in a concurrent thread. Further, spreading responsibility in a way that nobody can be held accountable strikes me as a very poor idea.
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    Default Re: [Amendment] The Proconsuls

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Because it's incredibly unethical.
    Curious response considering you said earlier that it is sole responsibility of the Consul to interpret Constitution rather than the citizens. If anything it is removing the interpretation from the citizenry (VoNC) to the Consul and proconsul. It is a "power exchange" not a circumvention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dismounted Feudal Knight View Post
    The placement of the interpretations is deliberate and negotiable only with a very convincing reason to circumvent mine; that the purposes of curial positions should be clear in one place, without their fields being scattered about the Constitution. References elsewhere should only exist as far as required for continuity and official functions (ie, sharing the living history forum's jurisdiction). The split descriptions are intended to give each a focus, without treading on the already broad 'consul's assistant' function of censors, or the office of Consul itself as a largely clerical, arbitration and interpretation role. I'm open to adjustments of the descriptions (including standardizing the type of activity and just having different indicators of scope), but actually blending them together into a nondescript thing with general reach or splitting them across the constitution would run against the intentions of the proposal, and from my perspective essentially ruin it. If we want more people to just do stuff in general, we could allow for flexible censor count perhaps ranging from 2-6; I actually don't mind the idea of allowing more to exist based on need as determined by the Consul.
    I have no idea what you are going on about here.

    As for the name, I defer to what Flinn thinks of it as the most likely person interested in it right now. What to call it in specific is discretionary.
    Do you mind sharing what areas you have envisioned each of us on so that we all know which area of the proposal we can respond to?
    Flinn, I will have mu secretary call yours for an appointment Let's do lunch!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dismounted Feudal Knight View Post
    Another thought which I raise to input in general is to nix the idea of strictly defining scope and having Proconsulship as something to define in the election itself; what you, as a proconsul, wish to address in a Curial capacity, and letting the citizenry vote and decide if your position holds merit. Then it would be defined as long as the term lasts, and the exact scope and permissions would be set in the initial proposition without requiring amendments for the ebb and flow I referenced in the opening post. So perhaps there is a way to compromise into your take here, while retaining the 'sectional' focus and other details that split it from simply having more Censors.
    The Curia does not handle ambiguous rules very well. We will bicker for weeks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dismounted Feudal Knight View Post
    There may be a misunderstanding here; the Consul's job is upkeep of official content, interpretation, local moderation and so forth. Putting forth amendments, suggestions and taking initiative are things that any citizen could technically do now really, and do not imply the ability to unilaterally execute those ideas or be an arbitrator on constitutional things. Though I do believe in respective areas, some deference should be given to the Proconsul as the user elected with that area as their interest. But no constitutional functions change hands completely, at most are shared such as with the History role.
    Too much is being made of the "interpretation." All changes to the Constitution and the intent of the wording can be research through the history of changes. There isn't any reason why the original intent cannot be ascertain unless it was never actually discussed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dismounted Feudal Knight View Post
    Also, the easiest way to circumvent a VonC is not doing anything that would a) justify a legitimate VonC or indeed b) needlessly antagonize, since it's hard for even an illegitimate VonC to come about unless you have a controversial enough brand. No need to introduce extra functions beyond what is being discussed in a concurrent thread. Further, spreading responsibility in a way that nobody can be held accountable strikes me as a very poor idea.
    This isn't really true. VoNC's are rare for a reason.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] The Proconsuls

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Do you mind sharing what areas you have envisioned each of us on so that we all know which area of the proposal we can respond to?
    Flinn, I will have mu secretary call yours for an appointment Let's do lunch!
    As noted above, whichever ones you sustainably care about and have a proper stance for. If multiple people have commented on the same thing but one is bothered by the name and the other isn't, you might as well call the secretaries, and when you've straightened it out call my secretary.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    The Curia does not handle ambiguous rules very well. We will bicker for weeks.
    We're going to do that anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    This isn't really true. VoNC's are rare for a reason.
    So a non-issue regardless then.
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    Default Re: [Amendment] The Proconsuls

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Flinn, I will have mu secretary call yours for an appointment Let's do lunch!
    I'm always up for a lunch

    As for the name, I don't really have any idea right now, or a preference would be better to say. I'll think on this and if anything nice will come to my mind I'll share it
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