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Thread: Valuation of Citizenship

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    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    proposing and bringing forward new activities (or reviving old ones), by putting their money where their mouths are and committing ATL into running those activities during the start up.

    I don't disagree with much you wrote, but what I still miss is the realization that the Curia/Citizenship 'game' IS such an activity. One that sets the site apart from all others. Trying to make it into a pseudo staff is what's been killing it, because as an activity it stinks.
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    I don't disagree with much you wrote, but what I still miss is the realization that the Curia/Citizenship 'game' IS such an activity. One that sets the site apart from all others. Trying to make it into a pseudo staff is what's been killing it, because as an activity it stinks.
    That's entirely possible ofc. It's very positive anyways that this discussion is taking place, certainly it can help everybody who's involved in it to see the whole matter for different angles.

    I want to ask you a question though, if it was exclusively up to you and you had the power and means (including some cooperators) to decide about the Curia, what would you do? I know that the Curia is strictly bound to TWC at large and that the two goes together, but I'm honestly and genuinely curious about what an "ideal" Curia could be in the eyes of a long term member and contributor like you (you've already hinted, but let's make a game and a bit of roleplay and suppose you could decide and move on). After if you like I could post mine.
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  3. #43

    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    Citizenship is an award and the whole Curia is just about awards. This is the reality today, it might have been different in the past (more than 15 years ago, actually.. an age in Internet terms) or might have been intended to be differently, but as of today (and since when I know about this site) it has been so. I don't question the goodness of the position of Muizer about taking responsibility for your role as a Citizen (which I share in principles as I said), nor I contest Pike's interpretation of what the Curia was intended to be (which I hope it could be), nor even I'm pretending to have people agree with me on what I believe the Curia should be (since honestly I don't have any plan in that sense), I'm just telling what the Curia is today, period. Someone will not agree with that I'm sure, but that can't be helped. I'm talking as someone who has spent an enormous quantity of time in this site, all the way from day 1 up to becoming a retired Hex with that many Emeritii usergroups. I spoke with many members about this argument, in particular some of the older ones, and I add to that my own experience and the access to info I had as a Hex. ...I'm posting a quote from the CDEC abolishment thread, from Garbarsadar.
    ....That being said, it seems to me that the discussion all these years has revolved around whether the Curia represents or not the best of this site and if it should have (and actually has) a stake on site management (besides its role as an awarding committee, I mean). Well I guess the answers to both questions are pretty straight: no and no.
    The only group that views citizenship as an award is Artifex. In fact, it is the best selling point of it. This was my motivation for removing the automatic "citizenship" aspect of the "award." It was meant to make it more palatable to those that object to what the Curia is. If you look at the number of applicants, the vast majority are Artifex. It would be interesting to know how many current Artifex and future applicants would choose to forgo their citizenship if they can have just the award. Perhaps we know this answer already.

    The debate you allude to always strike me as funny. It was never either. Site management was done through the admins, never the Curia. The Curia provided suggestions. It is not possible for 20- 100 people to manage a site. It also cannot function as an award committee. There are too many people and the discussion too public to do so. One thing I noted about the CdeC is that they rarely, if ever, tore into each other. There was a sense of mutual respect despite their bloated sense of themselves within the larger Curia. A tier system did exist and probably should have been maintained. The number of active citizens is so small, it would be prudent to go back to a committee to seek out and offer citizenship to worthy members. As an Aaward committee, we are not very good unless someone manages to kick the proverbial beehive.




    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    Pike himself told what was the attitude of the Curia (""Citizens" were rude and very aggressive and came across like jerks.") and IMO it always failed to promote a positive, engaging and welcoming behavior, quite the contrary I would say. There are multiple reasons behind this: first, it was never about the best behaving Citizens, but about the worst ones. The Curia has proven incapable of dealing with troubling Citizens efficiently and if you can't keep up with the standards you pretend to uphold, you lose credibility and people run away from you: this has been the doom of the Curia since the beginning. This is even more evident after the removal of the Citizens Referrals. To add for the worst, the fact that personal references are allowed in the Curia makes the ambient even more toxic (because anyone can act like a bastard if they want and they are allowed certain wide limits to skirt with), so the place where the best of the best is supposed to dwell, is, in practical terms, the worst of the whole site. Removing the Preafects didn't help as well. I really doubt that the Curia ever incarnated the best of the site in any case, the only "place" where standards were indeed held high is the Staff, since if you don't behave, they kick you out. I can grant you that there has been a positive, constructive and welcoming behavior, but there's a hierarchy too, as well as people taking certain responsibilities on them (included about other members as well). I don't want to promote the Staff, I don't need to, I'm just saying that this whole "The Curia is the House of the Best" is just a big pile of BS and that a lot of people (members and citizens alike) found that so and acted consequently: read it as "I don't want to have anything to do with this hypocritical institution".

    As for the second question, well maybe the Curia had a stake on site management 15 years ago, but that was very brief in any case. It's many years that it isn't so, certainly it isn't since I first landed on this site, and I can grant you it wasn't so before as well. Pretending that to be anything different is just being blind to facts.
    My understanding of the personal reference has to do with citizenship applications. It was never meant to be in regards to proposals. This was one of the reasons why the discussions for applications should be done in private. It wasn't necessarily to "hide" the bad stuff, as to promote better discourse.

    Personally, I prefer the "Staff Referrals." However, the system didn't work very well. It was odd that we would barely slap the wrist of someone that clearly violated the ToS, but if someone violated some unstated, ill-define higher standard, then we would sanction.

    Our focus should be on promoting citizenship as the best part of the site. We need to commit ourselves to enforcing these ideals. The question is when do we start? Until then, citizenship will continue to be a detriment to the site, not a benefit. If we resign ourselves to being an award committee, then we might as well, end the farce. Create an actual award committee and forgo citizenship. Civitate and Artifex can be just an award.

    Talking about GED is a waste of time. They said he save the site, but I do not see that now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    I don't disagree with much you wrote, but what I still miss is the realization that the Curia/Citizenship 'game' IS such an activity. One that sets the site apart from all others. Trying to make it into a pseudo staff is what's been killing it, because as an activity it stinks.
    I see citizenship as a pseudo staff but only in as far as they are supposed to promote the site through their attitude, behavior and good posting. Their standard of conduct should be equal or greater than that of staff. That is only possible if we have a select group judging such behavior. We know how they fair last time.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    I want to ask you a question though, if it was exclusively up to you and you had the power and means (including some cooperators) to decide about the Curia, what would you do? I know that the Curia is strictly bound to TWC at large and that the two goes together, but I'm honestly and genuinely curious about what an "ideal" Curia could be in the eyes of a long term member and contributor like you (you've already hinted, but let's make a game and a bit of roleplay and suppose you could decide and move on). After if you like I could post mine.
    It's not easy to come up with exact plans, and of course in the Curia the more far reaching and detailed an original proposal is, the less likely it is to succeed. But, considering I realistically expect the chances of a change of course close to 0 anyway, I might as well give it a go.

    So let's create a new class of citizen (again, I know). The rank is temporary (e.g. a year) and the number is small (e.g. 20) Nominations are accumulated over a period of 3 months by members of staff. Staff members are not eligible.They are voted on on one occasion by the existing body. Consecutive terms are not allowed. Candidates must have been a citizen for at least 6 months. The criteria for nomination are similar to those of the citizenship in that they focus on their contributions as TWC members in various categories. To the extent this needs to be regulated, this body can make proposals, but HEX can veto. This body in turn can veto Curial decisions. Members of this body are not expected to carry out any further tasks. Normally, they'll just meet once every 3 months to vote on their successors. They'll get a pretty badge and whatever other perks we can think of.
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Board of trustees/highly streamlined CDEC?
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Because meaningless bureaucracy is exactly what we need more of, right?

    No offense but that's like a Pikestance-tier bad idea, Muizer.

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  7. #47
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Because meaningless bureaucracy is exactly what we need more of, right?

    No offense but that's like a Pikestance-tier bad idea, Muizer.
    On the surface you are right, but by shifting the focus of the citizenship system back onto that which citizens do best (i.e. what they got the citizenship for in the first place) and requiring much less time from those involved, al [I]lot of bureaucracy can be dispensed with here in the Curia. It no longer needs to worry about its 'purpose', for one thing and the worry about 'citizen standards' will be mitigated as well. The Curia solely needs to focus on processing citizens and awards. Anyway no need to worry. This will never come to pass, exactly because it would reduce bureaucracy here. It would require those of us (myself included) who like to speculate and discuss site dynamics to basically sacrifice our pass time for the greater good. I don't see that happening.
    Last edited by Muizer; January 05, 2022 at 11:05 AM.
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    In order for people to consider it the greater good, they must be persuaded that it is indeed the greater good, and the idea as presented (which is strictly to create an additional class that makes its own proposals and has veto oversight over the curia which meets every so often) actually reduces bureaucracy and doesn't just add another layer. Perhaps I'm not understanding it correctly.
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  9. #49

    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    On the surface you are right, but by shifting the focus of the citizenship system back onto that which citizens do best (i.e. what they got the citizenship for in the first place) and requiring much less time from those involved, al [I]lot of bureaucracy can be dispensed with here in the Curia. It no longer needs to worry about its 'purpose', for one thing and the worry about 'citizen standards' will be mitigated as well. The Curia solely needs to focus on processing citizens and awards. Anyway no need to worry. This will never come to pass, exactly because it would reduce bureaucracy here. It would require those of us (myself included) who like to speculate and discuss site dynamics to basically sacrifice our pass time for the greater good. I don't see that happening.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dismounted Feudal Knight View Post
    Board of trustees/highly streamlined CDEC?
    I agree with a tier approach and the end result.
    The Curia really needs to be a placed to "discuss" and suggest new ideas, not debate.

    I have to say the CdeC gets a bad rep for being the "boogie man." It was only a symptom a larger problem. it doesn't take a great deal of observation skills to notice that the problem didn't go away. The rising standards for citizenship wasn't caused by the CdeC but rather the process itself was the cause. What was once a simple process of meeting the minimal standards and writing a simple paragraph turned into a CV of sorts that ask far more than it should have ever asked. To blame the CdeC for that is a little unfair given they were simply elected to uphold those standards. In the recurrent discussion of standards, I never once saw anyone push for restoring the "old" standard. If anything, the standards were being pushed by the rank and file citizens. The elitist attitude were pervasive throughout the citizenry and didn't just reside in the CdeC.

    This goes back to what Flinn was saying and why he quoted Garb. When people lack purpose, then the only alternative is to elevate oneself above others.



    We have no purpose, but at least we have our stars.

    I seriously doubt any changes can be made. If you have to "debate" every nuance just to try something, then it is never going to happen.
    Last edited by PikeStance; January 06, 2022 at 08:02 AM.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Dismounted Feudal Knight View Post
    to create an additional class that makes its own proposals and has veto oversight over the curia which meets every so often
    It will not make any proposals. Need to get that out of the whole mindset. It is absolutely not my idea to just put another Curia, or CDC like committee on top of the existing Curia. Stop asking what that body is supposed to do. Ask what it is for, which isn't the same thing at all. A puzzle in the Catchphrase game gives me something to do, but from the perspective of site health, what they are for is not to get answers, but to keep people here, entertained and engaged.
    Last edited by Muizer; January 05, 2022 at 03:34 PM.
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    It's not easy to come up with exact plans, and of course in the Curia the more far reaching and detailed an original proposal is, the less likely it is to succeed. But, considering I realistically expect the chances of a change of course close to 0 anyway, I might as well give it a go.

    So let's create a new class of citizen (again, I know). The rank is temporary (e.g. a year) and the number is small (e.g. 20) Nominations are accumulated over a period of 3 months by members of staff. Staff members are not eligible.They are voted on on one occasion by the existing body. Consecutive terms are not allowed. Candidates must have been a citizen for at least 6 months. The criteria for nomination are similar to those of the citizenship in that they focus on their contributions as TWC members in various categories. To the extent this needs to be regulated, this body can make proposals, but HEX can veto. This body in turn can veto Curial decisions. Members of this body are not expected to carry out any further tasks. Normally, they'll just meet once every 3 months to vote on their successors. They'll get a pretty badge and whatever other perks we can think of.

    This would never work for two reasons

    1. There aren't enough citizens to nominate unless you reduce the number to like 5, which is just not feasible.
    2. Of the active citizens there aren't a lot with the initiative/energy/time/common-sense to propose actually good measures. If elected the body would either do nothing or come up with Patronus Award level garbage.
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; January 06, 2022 at 04:55 AM.
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    This would never work for two reasons

    1. There aren't enough citizens to nominate unless you reduce the number to like 5, which is just not feasible.
    2. Of the active citizens there aren't a lot with the initiative/energy/time/common-sense to propose actually good measures. If elected the body would either do nothing or come up with Patronus Award level garbage.
    I didn't mention that they have to 'propose good measures'. Membership would be an honorary function. A citizenship+ if you will. Only obligation would be to take a poll every 3 months or so to regulate turnover. The very point is that these members get rewarded for continuing exactly what they did to get the citizenship in the first place: posting, modding, in general being active participants of the forums.

    Let me be clear, I think that anything that involves trying to divert members' attention from what they're good at and what they like to do and what keeps the forums alive towards doing pseudo-staff work is doomed to failure. So, whatever I suggest, that will not be a part of it. If you read that into anything I say, think twice
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  13. #53

    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    it is interesting that a suggestion garnered more interest than discussion of the nature and purpose of citizenship. Fondness is limited to what it was rather than what it is.

    The only "real" solution" is citizenship move back to the function of the admin which should seek out ideal candidates and then enforce staff level adherence to behavior. I would also reduce the number of badges to one (two counting Patricians), give awards to Artifex and Civitates. I would also restore the Prothalomos back to the Curia as an benefit of citizenship again. Having admin has part of the process would suggest citizens are valued on the site and their opinion matters. Citizenship behavior being less than that of staff was a serious failing of the site. That should never have been allowed to happen. They should probably be a Hex/admin who is solely responsible for the Curia (e.g. citizenship and discipline). There was one at one time. In this case, this admin would work with the Consul to ensure everything runs smoothly.

    To keep the patronage system afloat, regular citizens can "nominate" members for citizenship by writing a paragraph on why they think that person qualifies and would make a good citizen. if not, the admin who "suggest" a member would serve as a patron or the admin can request a citizen to be that person's patron.

    What is needed is a 'close-knit relationship with admin, not an Admin vs. Citizenry/ Curia mentality. This is really the only way. Any other "solution" is always going to meet more resistance than support.

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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    I didn't mention that they have to 'propose good measures'. Membership would be an honorary function. A citizenship+ if you will. Only obligation would be to take a poll every 3 months or so to regulate turnover. The very point is that these members get rewarded for continuing exactly what they did to get the citizenship in the first place: posting, modding, in general being active participants of the forums.

    Let me be clear, I think that anything that involves trying to divert members' attention from what they're good at and what they like to do and what keeps the forums alive towards doing pseudo-staff work is doomed to failure. So, whatever I suggest, that will not be a part of it. If you read that into anything I say, think twice
    I'm all for giving the larp a shot but the issue of too few people remains. There are about 20-ish active people in the Curia, most of who are staff or admins. You've got maybe 8-10 electable people, and since terms are non-consecutive that means 4-5 people per term.

    If you think that will work, and you can flesh it out I will support you, but right now I'm skeptical.
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    @pike, there is no demand for "Making proposals / running projects for the betterment of the site" amongst the citizenry. This is not impacted at all by standards of behaviour. As long as this is the 'reward', the one time occasion of receiving a badge is all the stimulus you're going to get out of the citizen edifice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    I'm all for giving the larp a shot but the issue of too few people remains. There are about 20-ish active people in the Curia, most of who are staff or admins.
    Oh, I think very few of those proposed should be those active in the Curia. In fact this is aimed at engaging citizens active anywhere else. Those who were once patronized and are still contributing in the same or similar manner today.
    Last edited by Muizer; January 06, 2022 at 09:49 AM.
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    If you can convince citizens who are not active in the Curia to do this I'm right behind you. Just one more question though, if the emphasis is continuing to do the things, and staff is not eligible, what about citizens who got their badge through staff work? If they're still in staff they can't participate and if they're no longer in staff they're not doing the thing that got them awarded.
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Just one more question though, if the emphasis is continuing to do the things, and staff is not eligible, what about citizens who got their badge through staff work? If they're still in staff they can't participate and if they're no longer in staff they're not doing the thing that got them awarded.
    I think that's getting into technicalities. My fault I guess. I had to choose between a woolly concept and something resembling something practical, and I chose the latter.

    The problem I see with eligibility of staff is that someone could get the idea that this new honorary rank/award could be used to entice citizens to do staff work and thereby repeat the error that IMHO plagues the Curia: basically, cannibalizing the citizenship by excluding 99% in hopes of recruiting 1. It would not be long before this body was dead as a dodo too. Having said that, I do not think citizens need to continue specifically what they did before, just anything that makes a member eligible for citizenship, but yeah, with the exception of staff work.
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Considering staff work is the domain of SND, perhaps you could build the idea around content that is publicly verifiable and sourced from an individual, excluding anything that amounts to 'trust me'.
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    @pike, there is no demand for "Making proposals / running projects for the betterment of the site" amongst the citizenry. This is not impacted at all by standards of behaviour. As long as this is the 'reward', the one time occasion of receiving a badge is all the stimulus you're going to get out of the citizen edifice.
    I am at a lost on why you are attributing this quote to me. I'm on record as saying that mechanism has been dead for at least 10 if not more. "Proposals for the betterment" was only result of increasing the membership stake in the site by making them a citizen. It was and still shouldn't be the primary purpose. It is their standard of conduct and quality of post that mattered from day one (or so it should be). We more or less agree.

  20. #60
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    @ Muizer, thanks for posting your proposal mate, but since it got dragged away in the discussion I'll move on.

    I'm dropping this here; it's not mine, but I'm curious to see what you people think of something drastic like this

    Since everything else has been tried, let's go back to the basics.

    Staff awards Citizenship. (there could be also a vetting of existing citizens)
    Citizens get a forum (1-one) to play with. They get a badge.
    The apple is that this (new) citizenship that we award is the minimum requirement for any staff position. Any.
    The stick is that we take it back whenever we like by a simple in staff vote.
    Staff (being citizens) uses this forum as well for discussion of policy. [the purpose]
    [insert whatever] Everything else will be incremental. For example, are the Citizens behaving? If yes, give them a Tribune of the plebs (the right to take part in the vote -with staff- for one of the judges)
    Etc
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