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Thread: Valuation of Citizenship

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    ... and off with their heads!

    One more thing, I found a lot of comfort in taking it easy in real life and I believe we should all be more relaxed and good willed when it comes to our interactions with the Curia, it's just a tiny part of this site and even a tinier part of our lives. I'm not saying this to devalue it, but to put it in the correct perspective. If coming here makes people uncomfortable, stressed or even angry, then there's something wrong with it all, and while we cannot change the nature of a the Curia itself, we could certainly approach it with a lighter spirit and a more positive attitude.

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    You are far better off assuming the good intentions of others than anything else. Plus, if people are more relax in the Curia, it would be more inviting.

  2. #22
    ggggtotalwarrior's Avatar hey it geg
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    No I refuse to relax. BURN IT ALL DOWN

    GET THE PYROMANCERS READY
    Rep me and I'll rep you back.

    UNDER THE PATRONAGE OF THE KING POSTER AKAR

  3. #23
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by ggggtotalwarrior View Post
    No I refuse to relax. BURN IT ALL DOWN

    GET THE PYROMANCERS READY
    I was not referring specifically to you, dude
    Under the patronage of Finlander, patron of Lugotorix & Lifthrasir & joerock22 & Socrates1984 & Kilo11 & Vladyvid & Dick Cheney & phazer & Jake Armitage & webba 84 of the Imperial House of Hader

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    I just wanna barge in and say we keep it. And also our CVRIA efforts can be spent on other areas on the site.
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  5. #25
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by ggggtotalwarrior View Post
    No I refuse to relax. BURN IT ALL DOWN

    GET THE PYROMANCERS READY
    Quote Originally Posted by ggggtotalwarrior View Post
    Lol you guys need to relax
    You owe me one
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Basileos Leandros I View Post
    I just wanna barge in and say we keep it. And also our CVRIA efforts can be spent on other areas on the site.
    Yes, this is why so many cannot find members to patronize. They spend their time giving awards to the people around them and tinkering with amendments.
    Anyway, people come and go, we don't recognize them. Citizenship captures them. At the current rate of patronization, we are the last. We average less than 8 per year.

    The Curia was only meant to be a lagniappe of citizenship, not the focus.

    maybe we should put people on a post count, for every 1 post in the Curia, you have to make 20 elsewhere (not counting chat threads). LOL

  7. #27
    Belisarius's Avatar Like so Divine!
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    The Curia has been in an existential crisis for 15 years. From my observations as a rather infamous participant when it was its most active what I have observed is that the decisions made after we left ogres.net inevitably lead to what it has become today. The two people who, in my opinion, knew how to use and manage the curia were Sulla and Horsearcher. Sulla because he dangled the idea of attaining "power" and "influence" within a community who played video games which were all about factions, conflict and intrigue. HorseArcher because he used the Curia to dish out "bread and circuses" and provided entertainment through threatening the imaginary carrot Sulla had created.

    The notion of a legislative body working as part of a community whose structure has remained largely unchanged for 13 -ish- years simply does not work because you end up just legislating for the sake of legislating. The first and second Constitutions were complex documents which were created in response to a site which grew exponentially and had peaked the interest of many people who saw opportunities in being able to influence (and ultimately buy or usurp) TWC. There were factions of people who wanted the site to move to a community driven model and factions who wanted it to move to a commercial business like model. Today the site ticks over and the community is rather stable so there is no need for substantial changes.

    The issues of the site are not things the Curia can solve because it does not have the power to implement any change it makes. The Curia is a reflection of a section of the site which is realistically outdated in the age of YouTube and twitch.

    If TWC were to radically modernize then, and only then would the Curia be able to legislate and attain some of that power which Sulla had used so masterfully.

    Should it all be deleted? Why? When the issues of the site are not caused by it why delete 15+ years of history.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Belisarius View Post
    The Curia has been in an existential crisis for 15 years. From my observations as a rather infamous participant when it was its most active what I have observed is that the decisions made after we left ogres.net inevitably lead to what it has become today. The two people who, in my opinion, knew how to use and manage the curia were Sulla and Horsearcher. Sulla because he dangled the idea of attaining "power" and "influence" within a community who played video games which were all about factions, conflict and intrigue. HorseArcher because he used the Curia to dish out "bread and circuses" and provided entertainment through threatening the imaginary carrot Sulla had created.

    The notion of a legislative body working as part of a community whose structure has remained largely unchanged for 13 -ish- years simply does not work because you end up just legislating for the sake of legislating. The first and second Constitutions were complex documents which were created in response to a site which grew exponentially and had peaked the interest of many people who saw opportunities in being able to influence (and ultimately buy or usurp) TWC. There were factions of people who wanted the site to move to a community driven model and factions who wanted it to move to a commercial business like model. Today the site ticks over and the community is rather stable so there is no need for substantial changes.

    The issues of the site are not things the Curia can solve because it does not have the power to implement any change it makes. The Curia is a reflection of a section of the site which is realistically outdated in the age of YouTube and twitch.

    If TWC were to radically modernize then, and only then would the Curia be able to legislate and attain some of that power which Sulla had used so masterfully.

    Should it all be deleted? Why? When the issues of the site are not caused by it why delete 15+ years of history.
    This hit the nail on the head. The Curia is too focus on the Curia. Moreover the act of legislation does not work in a forum, given the nature if to prove one is right and compromise is seen as a weakness or concession of a point.
    More than five years ago I suggested a radical different approach to take. Unfortunately, the owner of site doesn't seem to care, so any fundamental change is impossible as long as he remains in seclusion.


    On a side note, Horsearcher was (not sure if he still is) fairly active though resigned and contented to be in the shadows.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    I was HA's "hatchet man" haha.

    Legislation needs to have a purpose and should only be updated when the function it governs changes. When you have no systematic changes on a community level then there is no incentive to propose and discuss legislation. It is a shame really because I credit TWC and the experience I got dealing with its politics as a defining factor which resulted in my current career.

    As for site owner, GED saved this site and most owners after HA were reluctant volunteers who took on the burden. TWC I think is probably bogged down by 15 years of weight and is chugging along on a mobility scooter, fixing it is no small task. If it were me I would archive the whole site onto something accessible and dormant and use the www.twcenter.net and build a new site and modern community. But that is easier said then done.

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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    This was is last interaction with the site in which he made some "suggestions."
    Future of TWC

    When I joined in 2011, he had a clear goal in mind. He was not so sure how to proceed with the Curia has the "cracks" were already appearing. Prior to his hiatus, he started a discussion forum by invite only to discuss how to "improve" things. Personally, I thought he was doubling down on the role playing which was a perceived issue with the Curia to begin with. It was all for not since he then left on his hiatus.

  11. #31
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Belisarius View Post
    The Curia has been in an existential crisis for 15 years. From my observations as a rather infamous participant when it was its most active what I have observed is that the decisions made after we left ogres.net inevitably lead to what it has become today. The two people who, in my opinion, knew how to use and manage the curia were Sulla and Horsearcher. Sulla because he dangled the idea of attaining "power" and "influence" within a community who played video games which were all about factions, conflict and intrigue. HorseArcher because he used the Curia to dish out "bread and circuses" and provided entertainment through threatening the imaginary carrot Sulla had created.

    The notion of a legislative body working as part of a community whose structure has remained largely unchanged for 13 -ish- years simply does not work because you end up just legislating for the sake of legislating. The first and second Constitutions were complex documents which were created in response to a site which grew exponentially and had peaked the interest of many people who saw opportunities in being able to influence (and ultimately buy or usurp) TWC. There were factions of people who wanted the site to move to a community driven model and factions who wanted it to move to a commercial business like model. Today the site ticks over and the community is rather stable so there is no need for substantial changes.

    The issues of the site are not things the Curia can solve because it does not have the power to implement any change it makes. The Curia is a reflection of a section of the site which is realistically outdated in the age of YouTube and twitch.

    If TWC were to radically modernize then, and only then would the Curia be able to legislate and attain some of that power which Sulla had used so masterfully.

    Should it all be deleted? Why? When the issues of the site are not caused by it why delete 15+ years of history.
    To be frank, in your days too, the Curia was only a vehicle for a select few (like yourself) to exert any influence. The wider citizenship didn't have any notable say in anything. The Curia as parliament has always been a masquerade.

    In any case, it is true that the old Curia did better at giving the appearance real influence was at stake.

    In the old days it was for members to contribute in their own chosen way, and it was for the administration to award a stake in site management in return (or an rpg giving the appearance). If anything the Curia was a service of the administration to its members. A service to stimulate member creativity, generate engagement and entertainment.

    After Imb bought the site, some individuals better left unnamed IMHO persuaded management to reverse this, by introducing an ethos of Curial service, in a 'do our work in exchange for influence' way.

    IMHO that choice was like inducing a Coma, if not an outright death sentence. It soon and entirely predictably proved a failure.

    Administration radically expanded staff for its workforce instead, but the Curia from that time on has been stuck with this perverse service ethos, even after the promise of influence was taken off the table.

    Internally, with many Curial initiatives striving to direct its member's time and energy towards work for the administration.

    Externally with the administration coming to look upon the Curia as a body consistently failing to deliver.

    You can see the imprint in this thread: "citizenship is about serving"? As long as that's the mentality, the Curia will continue to languish. It's like trying to sell tickets to a labour camp.
    Last edited by Muizer; December 28, 2021 at 05:52 AM.
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  12. #32
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    The more I look into old memories (and not just here in this thread, I've had the privilege to talk to some oldies), the more it seems to me that the Curia history reduces itself to a series of missed opportunities and failed premises. Also, too many people mix Citizenship (which is an award) with the Curia (which is a sort of committee) and that generates a lot of misunderstanding and frustration.

    Citizenship as an award is still desirable, even if we only have 5 or just 1 new citizen per year, as long as they deserve that sort of recognition and they get it, it's still awesome to be able to do so and we should not really deprive that of its merits just because we personally don't care or have been citizens for so long that we don't remember what becoming one meant. Someone gets to it by accumulated merits over the time (modders especially, who I guess for the most do not mod with having citizenship in mind as their main goal), someone else actively works to get it by doing more in more areas of the site, and I don't see anything bad with that, quite the contrary I would say.

    I always tried, personally, to transmit my view to my clients, by explaining them that there's a line to be drawn between becoming a citizen and partaking in the Curia and that by NO means someone who becomes a citizens has to feel compelled to mess with the latter. I never really mixed the value of Citizenship with the value of the Curia, or I would have resigned mine long ago and not certainly sponsored 10 citizens and just as many Large awards (if not more).
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  13. #33
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    The more I look into old memories (and not just here in this thread, I've had the privilege to talk to some oldies), the more it seems to me that the Curia history reduces itself to a series of missed opportunities and failed premises. Also, too many people mix Citizenship (which is an award) with the Curia (which is a sort of committee) and that generates a lot of misunderstanding and frustration.
    Flinn, you invoke a dichotomy between citizens who do not participate in the Curia and those that do as some sort of committee. However, to say it's a 'misunderstanding' to not accept the present situation, as if it were intended to be so, is not right. At no point was a loss of activity in the Curia consciously accepted as a price worth paying for trying to make it do chores for the site. That was the outcome of an error of judgement. I don't know if there's a future for the Curia, but I know for certain there isn't one unless this ethos is denounced.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  14. #34
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Back when I joined the site nearly 10 years ago, the outside perception of the Curia was that of a much cooler Thema Devia where you could make friends, get gaming parties together and generally interact with the community. Sure, there were bad apples, but overall it was seen as a fun place to be. Nowadays it's a cycle of User X comes up with a stupid idea that ultimately does nothing / User X seeks attention through scandal or edgy behavior -> everyone reacts -> bile and acidic vomit everywhere- > rinse and repeat. This cycle is occasionally broken by great ideas or bursts of productivity, see the latest 501 and opifex spree, but overall it's a net negative experience for any new user.
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  15. #35
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Flinn, you invoke a dichotomy between citizens who do not participate in the Curia and those that do as some sort of committee. However, to say it's a 'misunderstanding' to not accept the present situation, as if it were intended to be so, is not right. At no point was a loss of activity in the Curia consciously accepted as a price worth paying for trying to make it do chores for the site. That was the outcome of an error of judgement. I don't know if there's a future for the Curia, but I know for certain there isn't one unless this ethos is denounced.
    Dude, I did not say that you are not right in your analysis, what I said is that I do not see "Citizenship" and "Being active in the Curia" as two things which have to be necessarily bound together, quite the contrary actually (ie. as a matter of facts, since when the Prothalamos is open to everyone, it is possible for every member to partake in the Curia, even if not in full at the least for what regards the most important first step of "proposals").
    That being said, I'm sure we definitely have a different view of what the Curia is and could/should be, and that can't be anything different since I'm of the serving kind of dude (I've been in every single Staff department of this site, just to say), but I guess that's for another thread, since this one is about "valuating citizenship" and to me, I hope it is clear by now, partaking into the Curia has nothing to do with the inherent value of Citizenship as an award.

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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    Dude, I did not say that you are not right in your analysis, what I said is that I do not see "Citizenship" and "Being active in the Curia" as two things which have to be necessarily bound together, quite the contrary actually (ie. as a matter of facts, since when the Prothalamos is open to everyone, it is possible for every member to partake in the Curia, even if not in full at the least for what regards the most important first step of "proposals").
    Being a citizen means buying into the whole system, including the Curia, whether you participate in it or not. I respect those who do not accept the citizenship because they believe the Curia is a farce. I respect those who hold it to try to make it better. I do not respect those who think the Curia is a farce, yet keep on carrying the badge without trying to change anything about it. It is not possible to separate citizenship from the Curia. You may tell your clients that they do not have to participate in it, but they are complicit in it by definition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    That being said, I'm sure we definitely have a different view of what the Curia is and could/should be, and that can't be anything different since I'm of the serving kind of dude (I've been in every single Staff department of this site, just to say), but I guess that's for another thread, since this one is about "valuating citizenship" and to me, I hope it is clear by now, partaking into the Curia has nothing to do with the inherent value of Citizenship as an award.

    If you are the serving kind of dude, then staff is where you belong indeed. If that means you cannot view what the Curia is or should be as anything else, that really is a problem you need to address for yourself. I cannot accept either that this is 'off topic', because to do so means acceding to your vision of what the topic is. As if the value of citizenship can be separated from the institution that grants it. As if, indeed, the Curia were some separate institution or 'committee' altogether.

    I like you as a person Flinn, and I do appreciate your service as a staff member, but the attempt to mobilize the Curia to take such roles upon itself has been a predictable and proven failure. I'd hoped to convince you of that at least.
    Last edited by Muizer; December 30, 2021 at 08:37 AM.
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  17. #37
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Being a citizen means buying into the whole system, including the Curia, whether you participate in it or not. I respect those who do not accept the citizenship because they believe the Curia is a farce. I respect those who hold it to try to make it better. I do not respect those who think the Curia is a farce, yet keep on carrying the badge without trying to change anything about it. It is not possible to separate citizenship from the Curia.
    Well this is just, like, you know, your opinion man And I really mean that. While I respect it of course, I don't share it, and so do the vast majority of those who hold the badge: this is ATL I how interpret the fact that like 90% of the people who became citizens never bothered to mess with the Curia at all.. and this is an indisputable fact, isn't it?

    You may tell your clients that they do not have to participate in it, but they are complicit in it by definition.
    In an ideal world, I would agree with you. But RL people (most of them) do not bother to check what the politicians they elected are doing, nor they take responsibility for them. Imagine if they would bother about a fictional institution like this one. Resigning citizenship in protest is an option, nor an obligation, nor one is obliged to partake in the institution (or so the document that regulates it says, or doesn't say, in this case). Look, as someone who is busy half of the time as an elected public admin, I very much agree with you in principles, but not in practice, sadly.

    If you are the serving kind of dude, then staff is where you belong indeed. If that means you cannot view what the Curia is or should be as anything else, that really is a problem you need to address for yourself. I cannot accept either that this is 'off topic', because to do so means acceding to your vision of what the topic is. As if the value of citizenship can be separated from the institution that grants it. As if, indeed, the Curia were some separate institution or 'committee' altogether.
    Believe me or not, but I never meant nor wanted to turn the Curia into another Staff department, or I would have played my cards as long as I was in Hex still However, I still fail to see why "serving" does not go together with "Curia" in your view; if you could explain me why, I think I might getting you better and that will probably help me to see this from yet another angle (to have a wider picture, so to say).

    I like you as a person Flinn, and I do appreciate your service as a staff member, but the attempt to mobilize the Curia to take such roles upon itself has been a predictable and proven failure. I'd hoped to convince you of that at least.
    I like you as well mate, but I guess that this has little to do with this discussion However, I don't plan to do anything "to" the Curia (see above) but I might as well give it a try to do something "with" the Curia, which means discussing, proposing and voting. Let me stress the point anyways: I might.

    Thanks for the constructive discussion and I look forward for your next reply. In case we don't chat again (I might be off tomorrow), let me wish you a Happy New year!
    Last edited by Flinn; December 30, 2021 at 10:27 AM.
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    Well this is just, like, you know, your opinion man And I really mean that. While I respect it of course, I don't share it, and so do the vast majority of those who hold the badge: this is ATL I how interpret the fact that like 90% of the people who became citizens never bothered to mess with the Curia at all.. and this is an indisputable fact, isn't it?
    Sure but my conclusion is they just have no objection against the institution of the Curia or how it behaves. I don't think they can be entirely oblivious of it, considering they'll have the process of patronization explained to them and accepting it can be considered a show of consent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    an ideal world, I would agree with you. But RL people (most of them) do not bother to check what the politicians they elected are doing, nor they take responsibility for them. Imagine if they would bother about a fictional institution like this one. Resigning citizenship in protest is an option, nor an obligation, nor one is obliged to partake in the institution (or so the document that regulates it says, or doesn't say, in this case). Look, as someone who is busy half of the time as an elected public admin, I very much agree with you in principles, but not in practice, sadly.
    Even if it is a fiction, it is an important one to keep alive. You cannot really let people get away with the claim that democracy fails when they have done nothing to exert their democratic rights.



    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    Believe me or not, but I never meant nor wanted to turn the Curia into another Staff department, or I would have played my cards as long as I was in Hex still However, I still fail to see why "serving" does not go together with "Curia" in your view; if you could explain me why, I think I might getting you better and that will probably help me to see this from yet another angle (to have a wider picture, so to say).
    There was a time when the Curia exuded a certain mystique or mystery, which made TWC quite a unique place, and that came entirely from the prospect of contributors being awarded with a meaningful say in site management. And not (just) as a stepping stone on a political ladder (though it was used as a recruiting pool) or substitute for a run-of-the-mill award system. In other words, in the time it was successful, it was so because it was content. Basically, like the quiz games, but with consequences.
    That formula was successful for TWC. The subsequent change to a Curia that exists to get members to work for the site failed. In other words, TWC has an asset in the citizen/curia system of which one worked and the other did not. I'd say that is rather relevant to any discussion about what citizenship and the curia should be. I can meet you half way though. If the Curia is to be run as content, then it needs staff support, so there will still be a place for you and anyone else with a similar mindset!




    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    Thanks for the constructive discussion and I look forward for your next reply. In case we don't chat again (I might be off tomorrow), let me wish you a Happy New year!
    Of course. Don't feel compelled to reply when time is better spent on festivities. I just had some time to kill .....

    Buon Anno!
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    @all
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Back when I joined the site nearly 10 years ago, the outside perception of the Curia was that of a much cooler....
    When I was first a member, I didn't know much about the "Curia." I noticed the funny badges and the citizen badges. I read up on it and following the advice on the wiki (which turned out to be outdated advice) and inquired about citizenship. A the time, I was very active on the ETW section of the forum offering my opinion, advice and commentary. The one interaction with admin was positive as I "misplaced" a post. It didn't take long to figure out the post never resisted with the system and it was not removed or moved. I also had more than enough to meet the requirements for citizenship. Well, so I thought. The reaction was the polar opposite. "Citizens" were rude and very aggressive and came across like jerks. Fortunately, I was PM'ed by Ian (Imb39), ybbon (Mod), Omni (admin) and others who presented a very different picture. I was basically told I have done nothing which was confusing considering what was written about citizenship was nothing like what they were suggesting. it is a little interesting that the "positive" and encouraging statements were made in PMs while the negative comments were made in the thread. My opinion of the "Curia" or citizenship was pretty low at this point. I ultimately decided not to pursue it and Ian, disappointingly accepted my decision. I had simultaneously contacted Hader, who was in charge of the Librarians at the time, about being a librarian. I was accepted between that and getting involved with Imperial Splendour, I i didn't give citizenship a second thought until Raglan PM'ed me. He was relentless and convincing me to apply. I did and that didn't go well with the CdeC showing similar attitude as before. Surprise, surprise!

    For me the Curia and citizenship came across as anything but "cool." they came across as pompous and rude. The whole point of citizenship was to encourage good posting, not create a cadre of elitist members. However, by 2011, that was the Curia. One of the main underlining reasons for the removal of the CdeC is that it perpetuated this attitude.

    The Curia is not a pool of laborers. it is not an award committee. Citizenship is not "just an award." It is more than that. It is a way for members to become a stakeholder in the site, promoting it through good and engaging postings. Citizen primary duty is to do just that. be engaging, be polite, and be thoughtful. For years, the citizenry has moved away from this primary purpose. We created numerous "awards" presumably as a means of promoting continued contribution. It is asking a little too much for citizens to expect that they would be anything but a small group of people interested into doing this. Once upon a time, patronization was reserved for those who obtain the patrician class. Which was more than being a citizen for three months. The reason is quite clear. It isn't for everyone. There are only so many people who are dedicated to the site to such extent that they would want to promote it by elevating regular posters to citizenship. of course, this doesn't matter any longer, citizenship well beyond its original intent and as the benfits of citizenship was gradually twiddle away, the pretentious behavior of the citizenry did it no favors.

    What makes a good candidate for citizenship. A member that has the post requirements (and no behavior requirement) but more importantly, a member that makes good post, respectful, and engaging. They do not need to work on staff, create a mod, role-play, lead or play multiplayer games, or write a mini novel. When realize this, then citizenship can be what it was. The Curia can ad be a place for new ideas. As I said before, by the time a member feels like they can offer advice for the betterment of the site, they should already be applying for citizenship If anything keeps them from being one, it is not meeting the minimal requirements or they just plain rude.

  20. #40
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: Valuation of Citizenship

    ok so, I feel like I'd better lay my cards on the table.. I had in mind to write a long thread about my view of the relation Curia/Staff/TWC since before I decided to step down from Hex, and in fact I wrote most of it already, but I'd probably lay down a part of it here since it is pertinent and the topic is relatively hot right now. It might come out a long post, but bear with me please.

    Let me beginning with stating a few points, which I'm absolutely convinced about:

    Citizenship is an award and the whole Curia is just about awards. This is the reality today, it might have been different in the past (more than 15 years ago, actually.. an age in Internet terms) or might have been intended to be differently, but as of today (and since when I know about this site) it has been so. I don't question the goodness of the position of Muizer about taking responsibility for your role as a Citizen (which I share in principles as I said), nor I contest Pike's interpretation of what the Curia was intended to be (which I hope it could be), nor even I'm pretending to have people agree with me on what I believe the Curia should be (since honestly I don't have any plan in that sense), I'm just telling what the Curia is today, period. Someone will not agree with that I'm sure, but that can't be helped. I'm talking as someone who has spent an enormous quantity of time in this site, all the way from day 1 up to becoming a retired Hex with that many Emeritii usergroups. I spoke with many members about this argument, in particular some of the older ones, and I add to that my own experience and the access to info I had as a Hex.

    That being said, it seems to me that the discussion all these years has revolved around whether the Curia represents or not the best of this site and if it should have (and actually has) a stake on site management (besides its role as an awarding committee, I mean). Well I guess the answers to both questions are pretty straight: no and no.

    Pike himself told what was the attitude of the Curia (""Citizens" were rude and very aggressive and came across like jerks.") and IMO it always failed to promote a positive, engaging and welcoming behavior, quite the contrary I would say. There are multiple reasons behind this: first, it was never about the best behaving Citizens, but about the worst ones. The Curia has proven incapable of dealing with troubling Citizens efficiently and if you can't keep up with the standards you pretend to uphold, you lose credibility and people run away from you: this has been the doom of the Curia since the beginning. This is even more evident after the removal of the Citizens Referrals. To add for the worst, the fact that personal references are allowed in the Curia makes the ambient even more toxic (because anyone can act like a bastard if they want and they are allowed certain wide limits to skirt with), so the place where the best of the best is supposed to dwell, is, in practical terms, the worst of the whole site. Removing the Preafects didn't help as well. I really doubt that the Curia ever incarnated the best of the site in any case, the only "place" where standards were indeed held high is the Staff, since if you don't behave, they kick you out. I can grant you that there has been a positive, constructive and welcoming behavior, but there's a hierarchy too, as well as people taking certain responsibilities on them (included about other members as well). I don't want to promote the Staff, I don't need to, I'm just saying that this whole "The Curia is the House of the Best" is just a big pile of BS and that a lot of people (members and citizens alike) found that so and acted consequently: read it as "I don't want to have anything to do with this hypocritical institution".

    As for the second question, well maybe the Curia had a stake on site management 15 years ago, but that was very brief in any case. It's many years that it isn't so, certainly it isn't since I first landed on this site, and I can grant you it wasn't so before as well. Pretending that to be anything different is just being blind to facts.

    I'm posting a quote from the CDEC abolishment thread, from Garbarsadar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garbarsadar
    Originally, Citizens were decided by the site's administration, meaning staff. The decision making process was closed to anyone without access to the staff forum; that prevented enmity towards staff and also permitted a free exchange of opinions on the quality of a member. The CdeC supplanted staff in this role with, initially, similar conditions. Later the patronisation process became more open for non-members. Now, if we have an open discussion thread and a vote, how are we going to prevent resentment from failed applicants towards nonsupporting members?

    I don't know, I haven't been around the place lately but I consider that the whole Curial stagnation thing is a vicious circle running from lack of purpose to lack of confidence and back to lack of purpose. Curia should be entrusted with a purpose beyond atavistic self-perpetuation but do we trust it enough for that? And will it ever gain trust if there is no sense of purpose?

    The other perspective is to enhance the role playing element (political parties, open Ostracism, christians, lions) but even for that a sense of purpose is necessary.
    I mean, that is Garb, former owner, someone who has been active (stalking for the most in the last few years ) since 17 years, he knows what he's talking about. Apart from the bolded part (which is strictly relevant to the lack of purpose of an institution that says that it should have some administrative powers but doesn't have even a shadow of them), it's interesting to read the first line about how citizenship was granted by Staff, to begin with... In any case, my point here is: the Curia, at the most, can have an advisor role in terms of site administration, since, and we all know that, the Hex has the veto power over every single curial proposal, decision or amendment. And again, that advising role is not exclusive to the Curia, since anyone can use the Q&S for the very same purpose (or even directly PM an Hexer, just saying). GED's stance on interactions with the Curia is pretty clear (to me ATL): let it do whatever it likes and just intervene in case it's something that the Hex considers detrimental to the site as a whole. Honestly, and this is of course my very personal opinion, this lead to the fact that Hex (and Staff in general) stopped bothering about the Curia, I'm referring not to "stuff detrimental to site", but to ignoring the potential for good that the institution might have had (or limiting that to considering it as an awarding committee like I and many other staffers did). I honestly don't think that this situation will change anytime soon, if ever.
    First, that would need GED to be back and be caring to spend time (and later money) in the site, which is something I personally doubt will happen (and I have my good reasons for believing so), because we all knew that GED gave up on the Curia long ago and while he still spends time and money to keep the site up and running, it appears evident that he limits himself to that and therefore he's not to be expected to do any step towards the Curia. As a matter of fact, and I say this with the best intentions to make it clear to everybody about what the situation is, he did not communicate proactively with Hex as well, since at the least 5 years, if not more (the last clear communication directed to Hex was to work to keep the status quo pending his return, and that was before I joined Hex). This is a wider problem that has already emerged from other discussions and as of today I'm sure that many members (in particular former Staffers) are well aware of this.
    Now, while this can't be helped, it still impacts heavily whatever direction we would like to give to the Curia as an "administering body", since in lack of an ownership caring to spend time and money, when even the official Administration is crippled, what could the Curia do?
    I'm not going into discussing again the reasons why the site has a decline and bla bla, I'm stuffed with them, what I know for sure is that any action towards dealing with them efficiently, requires a change of direction that only the owner has the rights and power to give to the site, the more because it would need an overhaul of how the site works and operates and, most important, of its goals.
    In other words: the lack of purpose of the site as a whole reflects on the lack of purpose of the Curia as an administrative body (even if only with that privileged advising/proposing role).

    So what's left of the Curia? Its function as an awarding body, and that I intend in the most positive way: it's still a lot for the site and for the community. This is what kept the Curia alive despite a lack of any other real purpose, over all these years.
    The only other thing that any Citizen can do, is to promote with their behavior a positive environment in the whole site (and not just here in the Curia) or, if they don't want to join the Staff (or don't have the clean record to join it), then they can serve via the Curia, which means not only becoming a Curial Officer, but also being proactive and proposing and bringing forward new activities (or reviving old ones), by putting their money where their mouths are and committing ATL into running those activities during the start up. This is not in any way an obligation, but a desirable attitude in my book, since I value the sense of community TWC has (or had ATL) more than any mod or post I can find in this site.

    ps. One due clarification, since I like to be fair to everyone. GED has his own good reasons, I guess, to not to bother himself beyond keeping the site running and alive. I'm pretty sure that that's already quite costly and sometimes very annoying, and I feel like that gratitude is due to him for doing so. More than this, TWC is a fan site, not a business site, and as such I think he sees it and deals with it as an owner. The actual issues the site is suffering are beyond what a fan site normally deals with, in other words if this was a business I would have seen certain actions to be taken (or not, some businesses simply fail at a certain point), but as it is today I don't see any hope for a major change.
    Under the patronage of Finlander, patron of Lugotorix & Lifthrasir & joerock22 & Socrates1984 & Kilo11 & Vladyvid & Dick Cheney & phazer & Jake Armitage & webba 84 of the Imperial House of Hader

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