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Thread: [Amendment] Curial officer VoNC Section I art II and section II art III

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    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default [Amendment] Curial officer VoNC Section I art II and section II art III

    Section I art II

    Quote Originally Posted by Constitution
    Undue absence or negligence may lead to an officer's removal from office.12 Any Curial Officer receiving a Moderation or Curial warning is immediately removed from office.
    to be replaced with

    Quote Originally Posted by Amendment
    Undue absence or negligence by, or a successful VonC against a Curial Officer may lead to their removal from office.12 Any Curial Officer receiving a Moderation or Curial warning is immediately removed from office.
    Section II Art III

    Quote Originally Posted by Constitution
    A VoNC may only be initiated for neglect of duty or abuse of authority10 and, if successful against a Curial Officer, results in their immediate removal from office.11
    to be replaced with

    Quote Originally Posted by Amendment
    A successful VoNC against a Curial Officer, results in their immediate removal from office.11

    To be removed:
    Quote Originally Posted by Constitution
    10 Frivolous use of this procedure shall be considered grounds for Curial disciplinary proceedings as per Section III
    .

    Quote Originally Posted by Constitution
    12 For being moved to vote the latest version of a resolution requires at least three Citizens to post in its Prothalamos thread indicating their support. The latest version of the resolution must be debated for at least three days in the Prothalamos before the proposer can request it be moved to vote.
    to be replaced with:

    Quote Originally Posted by Amendment
    12 For a VoNC to be moved to a vote the latest version of a resolution requires at least ten Citizens to post in its Prothalamos thread indicating their support. All other resolutions require such support from three Citizens. The latest version of the resolution must be debated for at least three days in the Prothalamos before the proposer can request it be moved to vote.
    Notes to be renumbered.

    What the amendment does: remove neglect of duty or abuse of authority as required grounds for a VoNC. Raise the required support for a VoNC to go to a vote.

    Rationale: The mandate of the officer comes from a curial vote. If 2/3 of that same body decide they no longer have confidence in the officer, that is in itself proof enough the officer's functioning is compromised. A VoNC is not a trial or an impeachment in which the accused needs to be protected from his accusers by a burden of proof of allegations of a particular nature or severity. Confidence, not guilt, is what matters. If this amendment passes, officers remain sufficiently protected from capricious attempts to remove them by the raised number of required supporters, the supermajority required in a VoNC and the minimum required 28 days between successive attempts at a VoNC.


    Feel free to comment or correct any mistakes I made. I went through the constitution, but it's been a long while and perhaps I missed something.
    Last edited by Muizer; November 20, 2021 at 03:07 PM.
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    Default Re: [AMENDMENT]Curial officer VoNC Section I art II and section II art III

    Concise and effectively puts VoNC into proper perspective.
    SUPPORT


    The purpose of the frivolous rule was to prevent anyone from being removed due any rationale decision making that is not based on interpretation issues.
    An example of this is the Curator had the right to veto the decision of the CdeC. If the Curator uses the veto, it would be frivolous to initiate a VoNC against the Curator.

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    Default Re: [AMENDMENT]Curial officer VoNC Section I art II and section II art III

    Opposed.

    The new amendment allows me to VonC people for any reason including the sky is not blue enough, I don't like him, he argued with me and won the argument (which was Pike's reasoning behind the failed VonC).
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    Default Re: [AMENDMENT]Curial officer VoNC Section I art II and section II art III

    Support. More in line with the idea of lack of confidence.



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    Default Re: [AMENDMENT]Curial officer VoNC Section I art II and section II art III

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Opposed.

    The new amendment allows me to VonC people for any reason including the sky is not blue enough, I don't like him, he argued with me and won the argument (which was Pike's reasoning behind the failed VonC).
    And the requirement for a 2/3 majority would quickly put a stop to such nonsense - if you even get three supporters for such a flimsy proposal.
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    Default Re: [AMENDMENT]Curial officer VoNC Section I art II and section II art III

    Support.
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    Default Re: [AMENDMENT]Curial officer VoNC Section I art II and section II art III

    Opposed as the specific conditions provided by the original text prevents exactly the sort of political prosecution the proposal is aimed at facilitating in the first place.
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    Default Re: [AMENDMENT]Curial officer VoNC Section I art II and section II art III

    Likewise, support.
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    Default Re: [AMENDMENT]Curial officer VoNC Section I art II and section II art III

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Opposed as the specific conditions provided by the original text prevents exactly the sort of political prosecution the proposal is aimed at facilitating in the first place.
    The electoral body expressing its lack of confidence in whom they have previously legitimised with their vote is not political prosecution, but ordinary democratic practice.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

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    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: [AMENDMENT]Curial officer VoNC Section I art II and section II art III

    Any reason why this action is not covered by an Ostrakon?
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    Default Re: [AMENDMENT]Curial officer VoNC Section I art II and section II art III

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Opposed.

    The new amendment allows me to VonC people for any reason including the sky is not blue enough, I don't like him, he argued with me and won the argument (which was Pike's reasoning behind the failed VonC).
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Opposed as the specific conditions provided by the original text prevents exactly the sort of political prosecution the proposal is aimed at facilitating in the first place.
    It might be more tempting to table a proposal for a VoNC, but I think bringing it to a vote is a different matter. Someone who argues guilt would probably get away with a a big defeat as long as they appeared sincere in making their case. However, someone who argues a lack of confidence would be wide open to accusations of being frivolous unless the proposal thread reflected said lack of confidence.

    On the other hand, if 2/3 of the Curia feel they must vote an officer out, that is in itself proof the officer's position is untenable, regardless of the motivation. How can a Consul serve the citizenry when that citizenry don't want him or her anymore? If an officer no longer has the trust of the Curia, then what is his mandate? Their previous election by ......... the Curia?
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    Default Re: [AMENDMENT]Curial officer VoNC Section I art II and section II art III

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    And the requirement for a 2/3 majority would quickly put a stop to such nonsense - if you even get three supporters for such a flimsy proposal.
    Resulting to mob emotion is never a good idea. And while I am not calling the Curia a mob past experience has shown that it is possible to sway the mass through emotion and decontextualisation. Would it not be better to keep the current clauses and simply add to them disparaging or dishonorable behavior instead of deleting everything in one fell swoop?
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    Default Re: [AMENDMENT]Curial officer VoNC Section I art II and section II art III

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Resulting to mob emotion is never a good idea. And while I am not calling the Curia a mob past experience has shown that it is possible to sway the mass through emotion and decontextualisation. Would it not be better to keep the current clauses and simply add to them disparaging or dishonorable behavior instead of deleting everything in one fell swoop?
    By that argument we shouldn't have elections in the first place, hence the argument is void - if we followed it we'd have to disestablish the entire Curia which is self-contradictory.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

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    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.
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    Default Re: [AMENDMENT]Curial officer VoNC Section I art II and section II art III

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Resulting to mob emotion is never a good idea. And while I am not calling the Curia a mob past experience has shown that it is possible to sway the mass through emotion and decontextualisation. Would it not be better to keep the current clauses and simply add to them disparaging or dishonorable behavior instead of deleting everything in one fell swoop?
    I was actually drafting something along these lines and it was becoming a convoluted mess doing it. Muizer's proposal is cleaner and it does exactly what you are saying. If you are fine with expansion of what can be considered a VoNC then you should be fine with this proposal.

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    Default Re: [AMENDMENT]Curial officer VoNC Section I art II and section II art III

    All you need to do is add another sentence that says something along the lines: "A VonC may be issued for ..... or any behavior, while in office, that is deemed to be disparaging or detrimental to the image of the office or the Curia as whole". Done. No idea how you could over-complicate this.

    Muizer's is not clearer. Muizer's proposal allows me to initiate a VonC for any reason under the sky, it turns VonCs into popularity contests and completely deflates the concept of frivolous VonC. Using Muizer's system one could be VonCed without having done anything wrong whatsoever simply because a critical mass of people suddenly want to get back at the person or the person was forced to make an unpopular decision. It's not fair, it's not just, it's counter-intuitive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    By that argument we shouldn't have elections in the first place, hence the argument is void - if we followed it we'd have to disestablish the entire Curia which is self-contradictory.
    Elections are not punitive in nature. There is no undue harm done by swaying people during an elections. We have the VonC system to guard against that. So no, the argument is not invalid.
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; November 15, 2021 at 05:59 PM.
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    Default Re: [AMENDMENT]Curial officer VoNC Section I art II and section II art III

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian
    Opposed.

    The new amendment allows me to VonC people for any reason including the sky is not blue enough, I don't like him, he argued with me and won the argument (which was Pike's reasoning behind the failed VonC).
    And the requirement for a 2/3 majority would quickly put a stop to such nonsense - if you even get three supporters for such a flimsy proposal.
    Well Pike according to his own claim apparently did?

    But other than that I agree with you and Muizer with the reasoning. It's kinda silly since it's not like people are lining up for that job and we'd be running out of replacements fast with all the drama that we have, but sure. Support.

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    Default Re: [AMENDMENT]Curial officer VoNC Section I art II and section II art III

    Yep.

    Opposed for all the reasons already listed here.

    I think this is a good example of why we have a mandatory 3 day discussion period, so people have time to cool off and see if this is actually a good idea or not.

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    Default Re: [AMENDMENT]Curial officer VoNC Section I art II and section II art III

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    All you need to do is add another sentence that says something along the lines: "A VonC may be issued for ..... or any behavior, while in office, that is deemed to be disparaging or detrimental to the image of the office or the Curia as whole". Done. No idea how you could over-complicate this.

    Muizer's is not clearer. Muizer's proposal allows me to initiate a VonC for any reason under the sky, it turns VonCs into popularity contests and completely deflates the concept of frivolous VonC. Using Muizer's system one could be VonCed without having done anything wrong whatsoever simply because a critical mass of people suddenly want to get back at the person or the person was forced to make an unpopular decision. It's not fair, it's not just, it's counter-intuitive.



    Elections are not punitive in nature. There is no undue harm done by swaying people during an elections. We have the VonC system to guard against that. So no, the argument is not invalid.
    When elected, you are elected by a simple majority of the votes. A VoNC is 2/3rd majority. The burden is significantly higher than for an elections. Moreover, "deemed to be disparaging or detrimental to the image of the office or the Curia" is about has ambiguous as you can get. Under this proposal, you can do that as well. In fact, you would even need Negligence or abuse phrases at all.

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    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Curial officer VoNC Section I art II and section II art III

    Confidence, not guilt, is what matters
    ...the accused needs [not] to be protected from his accusers by a burden of proof of allegations of a particular nature or severity..
    I just re-read the rationale and holy , are these not terrifying phrases.

    So you're saying it doesn't matter if I'm guilty or not, just whether you're confident in me?

    You're saying that there's no burden of proof? That the mere levying of allegations is proof enough that those allegations are true?

    I'm afraid in civil societies we need more of a reason than "I don't like you" to recall officials.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Curial officer VoNC Section I art II and section II art III

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    I just re-read the rationale and holy , are these not terrifying phrases.

    So you're saying it doesn't matter if I'm guilty or not, just whether you're confident in me?

    You're saying that there's no burden of proof? That the mere levying of allegations is proof enough that those allegations are true?

    I'm afraid in civil societies we need more of a reason than "I don't like you" to recall officials.
    That's literally what a vote of no confidence is.

    It is not a trial, so no guilt or innocence, jut whether or not you have confidence the person can fulfill the demands of the position.
    I think we need to move away from the paradigm of like or dislike.

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