Crossbow units in the SSHIP

[Jurand of Cracow]

Another topic, a thought that pops regularly up to my mind: are the crossbowmen units historical at the beginning of the mod? Crossbows are not shown on the Bayeux tapestry (ie late 11th century) and we have very scant evidence of the ubiquitness of the use of crossbows until mid or rather late 12th century. Yes, there's that famous Lateran Council act of 1139 forbidding the use of crossbow but it actually shows that it was not used by whole units, but just at times (and was deadly to the ruling class while in the lower classes' hands).

So my thought is: may the crossbow units should be introduced in the SSHIP over the course of the 12 century? I mean: at the beginning we've got archers and only after certain historical events weak, and then stronger units would be available. The horse crossbowmen obviously much later.

Actually, the range of the fire of the first crossbow units should be very low - but the battle mechanics could be broken if we'd apply it.

Maybe somebody remembers (and can provide links) the discussions that raged 10+ years ago about this aspect, perhaps during the creation of the Stainless Steel?

[removeduser_28376423423]

I've read that Anna Komnene would have described it in the Alexiad, and also that a man named Guglielmo Embriaco would have commanded genoese crossbowmen in the first crusade. If true, then I think they're ok.

[Slaytaninc]

Wikipedia says there's mention of crossbows at the siege of Verdun in the 900s, but the sources they used aren't exactly easy to access. Further Google searching just led to nowhere. Field of Glory 2: Medieval has them in the earliest army lists and surely by 1132 they would have been a common sight in Latin-speaking Europe.

[Cephalophore]

I think a better way to approach this is to question who did and didn't use the crossbow. Essentially, this would mean most every Western European country - lesser extent in Norway, Scotland, and England - would have access to them.

The Poles and Hungarians probably got them through contact with the Teutons/Germans, whatever you want to call them. Romans likely encountered them when they met the Normans and the aforementioned Anna Komnene seems to solidify the fact the East wasn't too familiar or willing to use them.

I think the crossbows in game are fine..

[Khevsur]

crossbow has been used in Georgia since the 15th century. Svanian wooden crossbows are preserved and stored in the museum.

[Jurand of Cracow]

The main issue is: from what point in time we can see UNITS with crossbows, not some men armed with a crossbow or an example of a crossbow in a museum or in a picture. From what I've learned from books and clips, I'm pushing this point more and more forward...

I advice watching Tod's Workshop videos in Youtube. In short, crossbows were used in 12th century, but they were weak, not made for warfare in general. Then came various spanning methods, which allowed crossbows to hold much higher draw weights. Take a look at this https://todsworkshop.com/blogs/blog/...anning-methods It gives a rough idea how crossbows got more powerful due to spanning methods. Medieval 2 itself does not support many of these spanning methods, but i think there is hand-spanned animation, if i am not mistaken?

A better question would be - how to implement crossbows to be historically accurate? Even though crossbows had long draw weights, they had short draw lengths, were often made out of steel prongs later, which is bad and also had very light projectiles. Crossbow bolts are as light as seljuk, ottoman arrows. Meanwhile, some western european or east asian countries had very heavy arrows, designed to be shot out of very heavy draw weight warbows. English archery culture of medieval times is an example. This means that crossbows are kind of weak in real life, because imense draw weight is suffering a bottleneck effect from light bolt and short draw lenght. The only strength of the crossbow is the ability for anyone to use it, provided it has a more modern spanning method.

This is indeed what I think.

I supose that the same case for the rest of Europe, little recruitment in s.XII and more in s.SXIII-XVI , and in urban places BUT for iberian lands It was on the contrary, the use of the bow was more generalized in Muslim lands due to their style of warfare, in Christian lands the bow was only used for hunting purposes, the use of the crossbow became widespread among the Iberian Christian armies from the s XII and even the Andalusian infantry used the crossbow a lot to defend their cities and fortresses.

An this one as well.

Im farely sure we know that William the conqueror had signifikant numbers of crossbow armed peasents in his army. There is also Anna komnenois alexiad in which she talks about the romans being introduced to crossbows by the crusaders and it might also have been around this time that the pope tried to outlaw the use of crossbows against fellow christians.

Well, I've seen recently the Bayeux tapestry and there's no trace of a crossbowmen. On the other hand - plenty of archers. Given the character of the object, I would say there're virtually no crossbows in use on the battlefield in Normandy/England in the late 11th century.

On the topic of crossbows there are 2 nearly identical crossbow militia units the only difference is 1-2 points of defence and 100 florins upkeep. Im talking about the generic crossbow militia and peasent or Levy crossbow militia. I think 1 should be cut.
If you already know this then im sorry for the repetetion.

Yes, indeed, this is a redundancy, the units should be merged.

crossbow has been used in Georgia since the 15th century. Svanian wooden crossbows are preserved and stored in the museum.

Yeah, I think a crossbow unit is unhistorical for Georgia.

[Stivanderen]

Im farely sure we know that William the conqueror had signifikant numbers of crossbow armed peasents in his army. There is also Anna komnenois alexiad in which she talks about the romans being introduced to crossbows by the crusaders and it might also have been around this time that the pope tried to outlaw the use of crossbows against fellow christians.

On the topic of crossbows there are 2 nearly identical crossbow militia units the only difference is 1-2 points of defence and 100 florins upkeep. Im talking about the generic crossbow militia and peasent or Levy crossbow militia. I think 1 should be cut.
If you already know this then im sorry for the repetetion.

[j.a.luna]

I think that for the current era of the game crossbow is fit for sship, the only thing that i would add or I would differentiate, it would be the use of this weapon according to which regions of the map, for example as I mentioned above, the Normans already used the crossbow in the battle of Hastings and in subsequent battles but to a lesser extent, perhaps for the English they should recruit more archers and few crossbowmen and perhaps something similar in various regions of Europe except perhaps regions of Italy (due to the widespread use of urban militias with crossbows and spears) and some areas of the Middle East or Muslim control regions such as Andalusia where the use of the crossbow was very generalized among the citizens and peasants of the area.
In addition to how you said, once the game progresses in years and the cities grow, the use of the crossbow will become general throughout the world.

[removeduser_28376423423]

perhaps for the English they should recruit more archers and few crossbowmen and perhaps something similar in various regions of Europe except perhaps regions of Italy (due to the widespread use of urban militias with crossbows and spears) and some areas of the Middle East or Muslim control regions such as Andalusia where the use of the crossbow was very generalized among the citizens and peasants of the area.
In addition to how you said, once the game progresses in years and the cities grow, the use of the crossbow will become general throughout the world.

No cossbow in Spain (Castile, Aragon)? What about France and HRE?

[j.a.luna]

No cossbow in Spain (Castile, Aragon)? What about France and HRE?

I supose that the same case for the rest of Europe, little recruitment in s.XII and more in s.SXIII-XVI , and in urban places BUT for iberian lands It was on the contrary, the use of the bow was more generalized in Muslim lands due to their style of warfare, in Christian lands the bow was only used for hunting purposes, the use of the crossbow became widespread among the Iberian Christian armies from the s XII and even the Andalusian infantry used the crossbow a lot to defend their cities and fortresses.

Interesting information about the use of crossbow in medieval Europe and in Spain:

https://archivoshistoria.com/la-ball...ia-de-un-arma/

http://www.ballestas.info/articulo/Reconquista.html

[AlberdoBalsam]

I advice watching Tod's Workshop videos in Youtube. In short, crossbows were used in 12th century, but they were weak, not made for warfare in general. Then came various spanning methods, which allowed crossbows to hold much higher draw weights. Take a look at this https://todsworkshop.com/blogs/blog/...anning-methods It gives a rough idea how crossbows got more powerful due to spanning methods. Medieval 2 itself does not support many of these spanning methods, but i think there is hand-spanned animation, if i am not mistaken?

A better question would be - how to implement crossbows to be historically accurate? Even though crossbows had long draw weights, they had short draw lengths, were often made out of steel prongs later, which is bad and also had very light projectiles. Crossbow bolts are as light as seljuk, ottoman arrows. Meanwhile, some western european or east asian countries had very heavy arrows, designed to be shot out of very heavy draw weight warbows. English archery culture of medieval times is an example. This means that crossbows are kind of weak in real life, because imense draw weight is suffering a bottleneck effect from light bolt and short draw lenght. The only strength of the crossbow is the ability for anyone to use it, provided it has a more modern spanning method.

[Khevsur]

Jurand of Cracow

yes . you can make only svanian Crossbowmen in 15 th century. Tskhemad- is svanian name of crossbow

[kostic]

Indeed, according to my sources, the crossbow was little used at the beginning of the 12th century.
It seems that Louis VII had in his pay a small troop of archers and crossbowmen, but the ranged weapons were frowned upon by the church (the bow too) and see a hundred soldiers simultaneously using this type of weapons is unrealistic.


Unfortunately, the game engine does not allow crossbowmen to be mixed with other types of soldiers. It therefore seems relevant to make this type of unit rare at the start of the campaign (see removing it or reducing it to a maximum of 20 soldiers for example ) and allowing its development later, towards the end of the 12th century.

[AnthoniusII]

Not exactly. Crossbow was very comon weapon in the Islamic world via the trade with china but also in the Italian penisula in 10th century when Italian city states started to forme their own militia armies. The cause was that crossbow needed much less training and it was more accurate from a ship's deck or a wall rambart. Do ban a weapon it has to be used first. Italians and Musloms were the weapon's most users espesoaly for marimime warfare.

[Slaytaninc]

20 men units aren't really viable except on the smallest unit size.

[j.a.luna]

20 men units aren't really viable except on the smallest unit size.

Yes, same opinion. I think that a "fast solution" is merge the repeat units in one( levy and militia crossbowmen in one, maybe crossbowmen militia as a mix of peasants and urban militias with the easy weapon of crossbow, and with a simple knife or little axe for melee combat) ,with more availability and recruitment slots in Italian cities, Andalusia lands( for muslims) , Iberia ( christian kingdoms), and maybe in other muslim lands as @AnthoniusII says, ( abbasids,turks,fatimids???)
The rest of the Europe, with very low availability and recruitment slots for crossbowmen at the beginning of the game, only with cities growing and more recruitment starting from s.XIII, also the penetration capacity of crossbow bolts and their effectiveness at close range should be more noticeable (greatly reducing their shooting distance compared to the bow, as well as their slow rate of fire).
The same for mercenary crossbowmen ( more in italian lands and Iberian lands at the beginning of the game)
Also should exist a mercenary unit for muslims ( archers or crossbowmen on foot as mercenary, similar to the old vainilla unit in sicilians lands called " mercenary muslims" but with archer/crossbow and shield/sword and with historical/better unit model).

[AnthoniusII]

True,,,there is no need to have cloned units one recruited in cities and one recruited in castles.
My humble opinion is that most of units mustbe recruited from castles. Exeptions (Muslims, Italian city states). Feudalism left no room for "national" armies exept some peasantrt status or law enforcement units.

[Slaytaninc]

Isn't the reason there's two different types of crossbowmen because one is an urban militia and the other is a feudal levy?

[Kilgore Trout]

Regarding the crossbows in Medieval 2, doesn't The Great Conflicts mod use faster crossbow animations, and are these animations also being used in SHIPP?

[Jurand of Cracow]

True,,,there is no need to have cloned units one recruited in cities and one recruited in castles.
My humble opinion is that most of units mustbe recruited from castles. Exeptions (Muslims, Italian city states). Feudalism left no room for "national" armies exept some peasantrt status or law enforcement units.

Well, this depends on the way of how we depict history in our mods.
In the SSHIP, the units are recruited from specialized buildings in the castles (stables, ranges) or from the barracks in the castles and cities, or from the feudal (Landowners) buildings also in both types of the settlements.

But you're fully right that there is no need to have cloned units one recruited in cities and one recruited in castles.

Isn't the reason there's two different types of crossbowmen because one is an urban militia and the other is a feudal levy?

Perhaps but I think that it's a waste of a unit slot and I think they can be merged into one.

Regarding the crossbows in Medieval 2, doesn't The Great Conflicts mod use faster crossbow animations, and are these animations also being used in SHIPP?

I have no idea, it's not my specializtion, maybe @kostic would know.