Non-US citizen under prosecution for defending his homeland!

[Miraj]

Dutch man faces US terror charges
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6311747.stm

This story really got my blood boiling.

Why should non-US citizens be extradited to the US for partaking is perfectly legitimate acts of resistance?

The only person who can be tried for attacking American forces in Iraq are American citizens. THATS IT. It is perfectly legimate for the rest of us to not only finance but take active part in the Iraqi insurgency.

First of all the American invasion of Iraq is an illegal and criminal act.

The Right of Resistance is something all Iraqis have the right to practice.

Laying down IEDs to attack enemy occupiers is fundamentally no different than when partisans would sabotage or bomb Nazi convoys in occupied France and Poland. I would go as far as saying that killing American soldiers is not only a right of all Iraqis but a duty.

I would consider anybody not taking up arms against Americans as traitors and collaboraters no different from the Loyalists of the American Revolutionary War or the leaders of the Vichy government in occupied France.

Of course the biggest criminals in this whole situation are the racist Dutch who take the first oppurtunity they get to screw over any of their Muslim citizens they can. Where they should have been defending their citizens against unjust imprisonment by US authorities they instead decide to extradite him with the full knowledge that he may be tortured by US authorities.

Shame.

[danzig]

Iraqi-born Dutch citizen

A citizen of one country attacks the soldiers of another country who they are allies with...blame the moron guy for waltzing back home thinking he'd pay no price for his acts. Legitimacy of the attack is really irrelevant the bottom line is he got caught, whether he got napped in Iraq and arrested or killed in a gunfight or flying home thinking he was immune. Funny you defend roadside bombs though, you know usually poorly constructed explosives that can and do go off killing innocent Iraqis in the process as well.

[Erik]

This story really got my blood boiling.

Me too.

Why should non-US citizens be extradited to the US for partaking is perfectly legitimate acts of resistance?

It's not perfectly legitimate.
He is a Dutch citizen, not an Iraqi, and what he's accused of is illegal under Dutch law.
But he should have faced justice in the Netherlands, not in the US.

Of course the biggest criminals in this whole situation are the racist Dutch who take the first oppurtunity they get to screw over any of their Muslim citizens they can.

That's not true.
They handed him over to please America.
The Dutch government has no spine, they want to be America's lapdog.
That's also why we were in Iraq, and why we are now in Afghanistan.

There was a lot of public outcry against his handover, but sadly the public wasn't able to stop it.

It should also be pointed out that it's absolutely not clear that he is guilty.
In fact: I'm fairly convinced that he is innocent.

It's sad that the BBC article *cough* bias *cough* fails to mention that:
1) He never made a secret of what happened to him in Iraq.
He showed the videotapes that are now used as evidence against him to many of his (mainly native Dutch) friends and even tried to sell them to TV stations.
This supports his claim that he was kidnapped and forced to make those tapes.
2) He isn't very religious, and certainly not a fundamentalists.
He speaks perfect Dutch and has mostly native, non-Muslims Dutch friends.
He really looks and behaves like a regular Dutch man, and if it wasn't for his skincolour you probably wouldn't be able to tell that he is an Iraqi.

[danzig]

That's not true.
They handed him over to please America.
The Dutch government has no spine, they want to be America's lapdog.
That's also why we were in Iraq, and why we are now in Afghanistan.

Well what he is being accused of is against US soldiers, besides article says that he'll be tried in a federal court not a military one and if found guilty will serve his sentence in Netherlands. Doesnt sound like a 'lapdog' thing just sounds like they dont want to deal with it since it wasnt against their citizens so let the US handle it.

[Erik]

Well what he is being accused of is against US soldiers,

And that matters...how?
A crime is a crime, isn't it?

besides article says that he'll be tried in a federal court not a military one and if found guilty will serve his sentence in Netherlands. Doesnt sound like a 'lapdog' thing

The result of the public outcry, I think.
It's a fine line between appealing to the voters and pleasing America.
The final result is a compromise so typical to Dutch "polder" politics.

just sounds like they dont want to deal with it since it wasnt against their citizens so let the US handle it.

IIRC they did want to deal with it themselves, but then got a request from America to have him handed over after he was arrested.
But I have to look this up.

[danzig]

And that matters...how?
A crime is a crime, isn't it?

No my point was its possible Dutch goverment rather not involve itself by having such a trial...I mean either way you go they get short end no? If they try it they get accused of taking side of America over one of its muslim citizens, if they deport him they get accused of being lapdogs and if they do nothing it sets a bad example. Faced with those choices, this one possibly might be the least worrisome one though none ideal.

IIRC they did want to deal with it themselves, but then got a request from America to have him handed over after he was arrested.
But I have to look this up.

Well see my point above, I wouldnt necessarily be surprised if they were happy to comply with the request...the time the trial/appeals etc are over the story will no doubt be lost in the media as opposed to the exposure it might get over time if held in the Netherlands.

[General Dissaray]

This man participated in the planing of acts of terrorisum, or so the evidance showes, why should we not prosocute him as we would any other terrorist? Why is this such a terrible thing, us defending soldiers from some duch man? Why are we the bad guys here? He was the one ploting to kill people in a country he dosen't evin hold citizenship in and now he is some kind of freedom fighting hero? That is ****ed up logic there.

[Erik]

No my point was its possible Dutch goverment rather not involve itself by having such a trial...I mean either way you go they get short end no? If they try it they get accused of taking side of America over one of its muslim citizens, if they deport him they get accused of being lapdogs and if they do nothing it sets a bad example. Faced with those choices, this one possibly might be the least worrisome one though none ideal.

It's not the Dutch governments choice to put him on trial or not.
It's the Public Prosecution Service (I think that's the correct translation) who decide to put people on trial, and they can't be influenced by politicians.

Imagine the impact it would have if politicians got to decide on who to prosecute.
It would effectively put themselves and all their family and friends out of reach for the law.

The only political choice was to fulfill or deny America's request to hand him over.
This decision was made by the minister of Justice, after which a Dutch court had to decide on it's legitimacy before he could actually be handed over. (that's why it took so long).

And I did some research.
There was indeed a Dutch prosecution against him underway at the time America first requested his handover.
So if America hadn't interfered he would have faced a Dutch court by now.


One more thing:

If they try it they get accused of taking side of America over one of its muslim citizens

I don't know where you got that idea.
Contrary to what you hear on FOXnews the Dutch population isn't supportive of the Iraqi insurgency.
If he's guilty we want him behind bars just as much as Americans want.

The problem is that we aren't convinced that he is guilty (far from it).
And we simply don't trust the American legal system.

------------------------------

PS: did Mirage just get banned?
Why?

We aren't going down last weeks road again, are we?

[JP226]

Well, why should non citizens be able to partake in US rights? IE gitmo? If you are pissed with one thing, you should be equally pissed with other, yes?

[Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus]

Dutch man faces US terror charges
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6311747.stm

This story really got my blood boiling.

Why should non-US citizens be extradited to the US for partaking is perfectly legitimate acts of resistance?

Because he is planning to kill people In a nation that is allies with the people hes trying to kill.

The only person who can be tried for attacking American forces in Iraq are American citizens. THATS IT. It is perfectly legimate for the rest of us to not only finance but take active part in the Iraqi insurgency.

First of all the American invasion of Iraq is an illegal and criminal act.

The Right of Resistance is something all Iraqis have the right to practice.

Actually, we are really not occupiers, Were Allies of the Iraqi Government helping thier nation stabalize themselves and will leave when the country is able to fully defend themselves.

Laying down IEDs to attack enemy occupiers is fundamentally no different than when partisans would sabotage or bomb Nazi convoys in occupied France and Poland. I would go as far as saying that killing American soldiers is not only a right of all Iraqis but a duty.

Actually, your a Traitor to the Iraqi's if you are doing that (See above for why) As it is in thier best intrests really to let us help them.

Let me say that perhaps we should not of gotten in this war in the first place. But However, Now, we need to say in the fight. first off Morally its Completely Unjust, to Invade a country, disband its Government an army, and then leave it to the dogs ? Second off, For America itself, losing this war will he a disaster for the war on terror.

I can see why Some Iraqi's would see us as Occupiers in the same way the French Ressistance saw the Nazis as occupiers. However, Now, It is America's Duty to fully protect every Iraqi Citizen from Foreign insurgency, and Home Grown Terrorism.

I would consider anybody not taking up arms against Americans as traitors and collaboraters no different from the Loyalists of the American Revolutionary War or the leaders of the Vichy government in occupied France.

And that would be wrong (See above for why, again)

Of course the biggest criminals in this whole situation are the racist Dutch who take the first oppurtunity they get to screw over any of their Muslim citizens they can. Where they should have been defending their citizens against unjust imprisonment by US authorities they instead decide to extradite him with the full knowledge that he may be tortured by US authorities.

Shame.

Or Perhaps, the biggest criminial is the one actually trying to Kill people. Perhaps that the dutch that Game him up him are not "Rascist" and in fact tolerant enough of others race, to be secure with thier tolerance enough to not assume that because the accused man is a Minority, the Acusator is Rascist.

[Erik]

Because he is planning to kill people In a nation that is allies with the people hes trying to kill.

And that's why I don't trust the American legal system.

What even happened to innocent until proven guilty?
If the jury is going to consist of the same kind of Americans that post on this forum then the outcome of his trial is very predictable.

Not to mention all the techniques they use to force a confessions out of people.
The guy is a hairdresser for crying out loud!
How long do you think he'll last in a "simulated drowning" situation (a method that can force false confessions out of most hardened US marines in less than two minutes)

[Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus]

And that's why I don't trust the American legal system.

What even happened to innocent until proven guilty?
If the jury is going to consist of the same kind of Americans that post on this forum then the outcome of his trial is very predictable.

That is true, It seems i forgot my own moral when i accused the man.

However, He will be given a Fair trial, albeit biased. And if he's guilty, so be it, if he's innocent then he's free to go. And if Hes Innocent and convicted as Guilty, then God Bless him.

Not to mention all the techniques they use to force a confessions out of people.
The guy is a hairdresser for crying out loud!
How long do you think he'll last in a "simulated drowning" situation (a method that can force false confessions out of most hardened US marines in less than two minutes)

Hmmmmm, I see your point.




And Btw, The Suspension of Aveas Corpus and the Use of Torture Is Absolutely wrong.

[RusskiSoldat]

I see no problem with this.
IIRC, international law only protects armies which dress in uniform, represent a legitimate government, and display a banner.
Insurgents in Iraq are not protected, and this guy must be really damn stupid if he thought he could wage a little jihad on his free time and then go back to hairdressing. Actually, he could do that, if he had the inteligence to not show off.

[-[Scorpion]-]

Dutch man faces US terror charges
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6311747.stm

This story really got my blood boiling.

Why should non-US citizens be extradited to the US for partaking is perfectly legitimate acts of resistance?

The only person who can be tried for attacking American forces in Iraq are American citizens. THATS IT. It is perfectly legimate for the rest of us to not only finance but take active part in the Iraqi insurgency.

First of all the American invasion of Iraq is an illegal and criminal act.

The Right of Resistance is something all Iraqis have the right to practice.

Laying down IEDs to attack enemy occupiers is fundamentally no different than when partisans would sabotage or bomb Nazi convoys in occupied France and Poland. I would go as far as saying that killing American soldiers is not only a right of all Iraqis but a duty.

I would consider anybody not taking up arms against Americans as traitors and collaboraters no different from the Loyalists of the American Revolutionary War or the leaders of the Vichy government in occupied France.

Of course the biggest criminals in this whole situation are the racist Dutch who take the first oppurtunity they get to screw over any of their Muslim citizens they can. Where they should have been defending their citizens against unjust imprisonment by US authorities they instead decide to extradite him with the full knowledge that he may be tortured by US authorities.

Shame.

Even if i was against any US military intervention in Irak, you've to remember that 75-90% of the casualties was done by "your" great muslim freedom fighters. If they only have 1% of brain in their head, they'll blow some Iraqis or Americains soldiers and not his our people but yeah, who's giving a **** about Iraqis peoples when the JIHAD was calling, even Iraqis don't give a **** about them so......

But hey, Bush most be the evil on the crusade to crush all muslim on the earth, everyone know it you know !

Look you in a mirrior before trying to put all blaim on the US governement, you're just praying for more terrorist attack in Irak for Allah(LOL). Your so better than the US gouvernement, really so better !

-Scorp

[-[Scorpion]-]

By the way, i pretty much agree on what the commie RuskkiSoldat said. It's propably because it's not a commie since October 2006 but yeah, it's another story....lol

[MightyBoo]

The way I see it is the sooner the Iraqi people stand in line and people like mirage41 shut up goading Muslims onto fight for their home land the sooner the US and other countries involved will get out of Iraq!

[wilpuri]

Dutch man faces US terror charges
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6311747.stm

This story really got my blood boiling.

This post really got my blood boiling.

Why should non-US citizens be extradited to the US for partaking is perfectly legitimate acts of resistance?

How are they legitimate? They are struggling against a democratically elected government.

The only person who can be tried for attacking American forces in Iraq are American citizens. THATS IT. It is perfectly legimate for the rest of us to not only finance but take active part in the Iraqi insurgency.

What law states this?

The Right of Resistance is something all Iraqis have the right to practice.

So, their resistance is allowed, but the otherside trying to stop them are the bastards? Do you expect the Americans and the elected government of Iraq simply to keel over?

Laying down IEDs to attack enemy occupiers is fundamentally no different than when partisans would sabotage or bomb Nazi convoys in occupied France and Poland. I would go as far as saying that killing American soldiers is not only a right of all Iraqis but a duty.

Partisans also raped and killed entire villages of civilians. And when they were caught by teh Nutzis, oh boy.

I would consider anybody not taking up arms against Americans as traitors and collaboraters no different from the Loyalists of the American Revolutionary War or the leaders of the Vichy government in occupied France.

What are you doing online man, get out there and get killed already!

Of course the biggest criminals in this whole situation are the racist Dutch who take the first oppurtunity they get to screw over any of their Muslim citizens they can. Where they should have been defending their citizens against unjust imprisonment by US authorities they instead decide to extradite him with the full knowledge that he may be tortured by US authorities.

Of course the Dutch are racist who take every opportunity to screw over muslims. You don't need any proof of the motivations behind the extradition, you know.

You seriously need to chill and not take offence at every little wrong you perceive in the world. The CoW is in Iraq, supporting the new democratically elected government. Their job is to create a stable Iraq. The insurgents are distabilizing the country, driving it towards civil war infact, and they want the Americans out. Here is a conflict of interests, and nothing, nothing is going to make the coalition accept the insurgency as part of everyman's rights. Why should they? All this talk of fundamental rights and that kind of thing is quite disillusioned.

Good luck with your duty in fighting the infidel.

[Lord Rahl]

Dutch man faces US terror charges
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6311747.stm

This story really got my blood boiling.

Why should non-US citizens be extradited to the US for partaking is perfectly legitimate acts of resistance?

The only person who can be tried for attacking American forces in Iraq are American citizens. THATS IT. It is perfectly legimate for the rest of us to not only finance but take active part in the Iraqi insurgency. ...

Perhaps, if the man was a member of an actual army which wore uniforms, did not conceal weapons, etc, then he might have a case. Being a terrorist isn't legitimate.

[GrnEyedDvl]

All this would be solved if we just shot people who did this instead of trying them.

[Muizer]

All this would be solved if we just shot people who did this instead of trying them.

, you need at least a show-trial. I mean, being exactly like Saddam is one thing, but actually appearing to be like Saddam is quite another.