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Thread: [Amendment] Clarification Section I & Section II and Privatization of the QP

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    Default [Amendment] Clarification Section I & Section II and Privatization of the QP

    Two things
    1. I wanted to clean up the description for the Politia since it does not apply and disciplinary proceedings for the QP.
    2. I also want to make application and disciplinary proceedings private.


    Rationale for point 2.
    The discussion for applications and disciplinary proceedings can get pretty personal. It is best to keep such discussion within the privacy of the citizenry. As in the days of the CdeC the applicant can choose to make the proceedings "public" if they wish to.

    Clarification:
    The proceeding was always a private affair until removal of the CdeC and the Triumvirate. We discuss moderation history in both proceedings which the site do try to safe guard for the sake of its members. By limiting the viewing audience to only citizens, then we at least can limit its exposure and there is a vested interest and keeping it private within the Curia.

    EDIT: I decided to add a provision about the nondisclosure of moderation record. It works best when the QP is close to Citizens over. Discretion is expected due to the nature of acceptance of citizenship. This will make it the obligation clear and indisputable.

    EDIT 2: Changes to footnote "7" In section 1 regulation and procedures. The only time when off topic posts or personal reference is acceptable would be in those two instances only.


    We want to promote the Curia and citizenship. it would be a good idea to create a thread in the Curia with a front page announcement linking the thread. The OP should include the OP of the application.


    Section I - Citizenship and Curial Officers
    Article I. Citizenship
    Citizens are expected to not disclosed any discussion or comments related to citizen's application or Ostrakon outside of the Quaestiones Perpetuae

    Article II. The Consul and Curial Officers
    The Consul and censors will maintain confidentiality in regard to moderation records shared by administration.


    Section II Curia
    Article I. The Curia Forum
    The Curia is a place for all Citizens of the site to discuss and propose changes to the site and this document as well as for holding elections. It consists of the following sections:
    CVRIA - For non-binding legislative discussion.1
    Symposium - For general discussion, Citizen debates, and the preservation of Curia and TWC history.17
    Quaestiones Perpetuae – Citizens only forum for Citizenship applications and disciplinary proceedings
    Prothalamos - For proposing formal resolutions of the Citizenry.2
    Curia Vote - For all votes on resolutions and elections.
    The Politia – Private forum for the Curator and Censors For the Triumvirate's dealings.

    Regulations and Procedures Section I
    Patronisation Procedure:

    1. The patron confirms the candidate meets the requirements and, with the candidate's consent, Moderation is requested to inform the patron and the Consul whether the moderation requirement is met.
    2. Given moderational clearance, the patron writes an introductory letter outlining why they are nominating the candidate.
    3. The candidate and patron formulate an application which highlights the candidate's contributions along with any supporting evidence/information.
    4. The patron posts the introductory letter and application in a new thread in the Quaestiones Perpetuae forum.
    5. After a two day discussion period the Consul adds a poll lasting five days.
    6. The discussion period can be extended at the discretion of the Consul, provided an explanation is given.
    7. If the candidate achieves sixty percent of non-abstaining votes, they are entitled to the award of Citizenship.
    8. The Consul informs the candidate and patron of the result. If the candidate does not pass they are not eligible to apply again for one month after the conclusion of the poll. Candidate may choose to have their application public.
    9. The Consul will create a thread in the Curia main with the application information and request that Hex make a front page announcement directing people to the thread.


    7 Due to the nature of the citizens' applications and ostrakons Curia and its related fora, The Consul recognizes that off topic and personal references are allowed, within reason.
    Last edited by PikeStance; October 29, 2021 at 04:03 AM.
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    Default Re: Section II cleanup and Privatization of the QP

    No.

    Opposed.

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    Default Re: Section II cleanup and Privatization of the QP

    Wait you mean you want citizenship applications to become non visible to the whole membership? Or am I getting that wrong?

    In the case I got it right, I'm opposing from the bottom of my heart
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    Default Re: Section II cleanup and Privatization of the QP

    Disciplinary proceedings should 1000% be private. But citizenship applications, I dunno. I think it would have a discouraging effect on potential candidates.

    A much better system would be to have applications public by default but with the option to be made private, if the applicant really wishes to have his application hidden he has that option.
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; October 27, 2021 at 07:25 AM.
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    Default Re: Section II cleanup and Privatization of the QP

    every applicant is judged by their contributions and attitude, and both are public already, so this doesn't make sense at all, IMO
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    Default Re: Section II cleanup and Privatization of the QP

    During the CdeC tenure all application were private. It was only made public by request of the applicant.

    I would be amendable to having be by default public and then allowing the applicant to choose a private process.

    The purpose is to avoid showing the citizenry in a negative light. We would be far better off announcing a new citizen to promote citizenship. In fact, I should amend the OP with such an idea. I am not sure what is the best idea.
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    Default Re: Section II cleanup and Privatization of the QP

    No that's wrong, you are mistaking citizenship applications with referrals. The forum where the applications were posted (Quaestiones Perpetuae) was always invisible to everyone but the Committee, but the archive (Citizen Antechamber) was visible to everyone, no matter his status (perhaps besides guests). Anyway, I prefer a more sincere approach, so I don't agree with hiding any potential dirty laundry under the rug. Besides, publicly available citizenship applications help other users to compose their own candidacies and encourage the membership of the site to share its feedback.

    Opposed.

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    Default Re: Section II cleanup and Privatization of the QP

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    No that's wrong, you are mistaking citizenship applications with referrals. The forum where the applications were posted (Quaestiones Perpetuae) was always invisible to everyone but the Committee, but the archive (Citizen Antechamber) was visible to everyone, no matter his status (perhaps besides guests).
    No this is incorrect. Private application were kept in the Politia.


    Anyway, I prefer a more sincere approach, so I don't agree with hiding any potential dirty laundry under the rug. Besides, publicly available citizenship applications help other users to compose their own candidacies and encourage the membership of the site to share its feedback.

    Opposed.
    There is nothing insincere about private proceedings. I am not sure why private proceedings have a negative connotations. Staff forums are private and by the same argument, you can argue that they should not be.
    It is citizens who decides who will become citizens. Feedback from those "not int he club" have no bearing.
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    Default Re: Section II cleanup and Privatization of the QP

    The purpose is to avoid showing the citizenry in a negative light.
    This proposal would damage the prestige of the citizenry even more as the outcome of the last ostrakon, as in the last ostrakon the public could see that the majority supported the ostrakon, only a minority voted with no, although the candidate was a very controversial one.

    Imagine this would have happened behind closed doors. The public disdain for the whole citizenry would be even greater.

    Opposed.

    Edit:

    It is citizens who decides who will become citizens. Feedback from those "not int he club" have no bearing.
    Why should the citizenry have a bearing to the side? The behaviour of the citizenry, as shown in many tribunal cases, is the cause, why nobody new is engaging in discussions in D & D.
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; October 27, 2021 at 09:10 AM.
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    Default Re: Section II cleanup and Privatization of the QP

    The citizenry is more than capable of showing itself in a negative light in all regards, and citizenship applications as of late have actually been the cleanest process in this regard. This proposal fixes an issue that hasn't been demonstrated. I do take a degree of issue with private proceedings particularly of this nature, but I think this proposal already has a foot in the grave as it is.
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    Default Re: Section II cleanup and Privatization of the QP

    I'm not sure what you mean by "private", citizen only? Thanks makes sense as it is the citizenry that will be determining the application.



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    Default Re: Section II cleanup and Privatization of the QP

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Commodus View Post
    The citizenry is more than capable of showing itself in a negative light in all regards, and citizenship applications as of late have actually been the cleanest process in this regard. This proposal fixes an issue that hasn't been demonstrated. I do take a degree of issue with private proceedings particularly of this nature, but I think this proposal already has a foot in the grave as it is.
    In the past applicants have been proverbially "drag through the mud." It has happened from time to time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    This proposal would damage the prestige of the citizenry even more as the outcome of the last ostrakon, as in the last ostrakon the public could see that the majority supported the ostrakon, only a minority voted with no, although the candidate was a very controversial one.
    Imagine this would have happened behind closed doors. The public disdain for the whole citizenry would be even greater.
    Opposed.
    Hardly, because you would not be aware of it to even have any disdain. This is the point for having it in private (that is citizens only)
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    Default Re: Section II cleanup and Privatization of the QP

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    In the past applicants have been proverbially "drag through the mud." It has happened from time to time.
    None in recent or relevant history to demonstrate either need or urgency for this proposal. Further, if the citizenry is incapable of civil behavior, hiding it behind a wall is misleading at best and in my mind deceptive. It should not have that luxury of avoiding consequences for that sort of display, given its impact on the Curia itself is far greater than to the candidate.
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    Default Re: Section II cleanup and Privatization of the QP

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Commodus View Post
    None in recent or relevant history to demonstrate either need or urgency for this proposal. Further, if the citizenry is incapable of civil behavior, hiding it behind a wall is misleading at best and in my mind deceptive. It should not have that luxury of avoiding consequences for that sort of display, given its impact on the Curia itself is far greater than to the candidate.
    As I stated this is not anything new. Applications and referrals were always private during the CdeC's tenure. Later, the Triumvirate kept referrals private.
    There is no negative consequence by privatizing the process. However, it can certainly help to alleviate the negative impressions. One of the arguments for public consumption is that it will lead to an increase in applications. Well, they were a slight rise initially, but the decline of citizen's applications continued unabated to till now. So public consumption does not in any way promote citizenship. However any public display of poor behavior certainly has had a negative effect.

    Lastly, proposals should never be because it is urgent. by then you waited far too long. it should be proposed because it is the right thing to do. Perhaps this is the symptom of our failure, we wait until things are urgent and change is just hopeful, rather than purposeful.
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    Default Re: Section II cleanup and Privatization of the QP

    If negative public behaviour is hurting one's reputation, then attacking the second attribute is the wrong course of action. Deal with the first instead.
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    Default Re: Section II cleanup and Privatization of the QP

    By the same logic all infractions and tribunal deliberations should be public as well.
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    Default Re: Section II cleanup and Privatization of the QP

    No, because those aren't the primary negative behaviour, only its consequence. The proper analogon of the negative behaviour Pike speaks of would be the ordinary posts in the forum that get infracted - which are in fact public.
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    Default Re: Section II cleanup and Privatization of the QP

    This might be one of the worst ideas in a long line of terrible ideas proposed here.

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    Default Re: Section II cleanup and Privatization of the QP

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    As I stated this is not anything new. Applications and referrals were always private during the CdeC's tenure. Later, the Triumvirate kept referrals private.
    There is no negative consequence by privatizing the process. However, it can certainly help to alleviate the negative impressions. One of the arguments for public consumption is that it will lead to an increase in applications. Well, they were a slight rise initially, but the decline of citizen's applications continued unabated to till now. So public consumption does not in any way promote citizenship. However any public display of poor behavior certainly has had a negative effect.

    Lastly, proposals should never be because it is urgent. by then you waited far too long. it should be proposed because it is the right thing to do. Perhaps this is the symptom of our failure, we wait until things are urgent and change is just hopeful, rather than purposeful.
    I don't put too much water in precedence when time and context has changed. Further I would say the trend you note has a lot more to do with the overall decline of the site and the willingness/perceptions of the citizenry, not the effectiveness of the process at promoting citizenship. Again and per Iskar's followup, the correction should be made in citizen behavior, not by hiding the process to hide toxic behavior.

    Urgency was only really mentioned because it is the only avenue that this proposal would get traction. As it is, it appears out of place and at best tangentially related to the current line of conversation. More to the point there is still no demonstrated need, and what need is argued is better resolved through better behavior and not by throwing sheets over it. All assuming that citizenship as a process has any remarkable negative effects with recent times in particular. I am less staunch on the disciplinary side of things, but my opinion is still quite similar there.
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    Default Re: Section II cleanup and Privatization of the QP

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    If negative public behaviour is hurting one's reputation, then attacking the second attribute is the wrong course of action. Deal with the first instead.
    It is not the primary purpose of the proposal. it is more to do with what was the standard of practice. Moderation record would not be an issue with the proceedings were at least limited to a only citizens. At least we are all invested in keeping the discussion within close doors rather than broadcasting it. I implied this, now I will make it explicit in the OP

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Commodus View Post
    Urgency was only really mentioned because it is the only avenue that this proposal would get traction. As it is, it appears out of place and at best tangentially related to the current line of conversation. More to the point there is still no demonstrated need, and what need is argued is better resolved through better behavior and not by throwing sheets over it. All assuming that citizenship as a process has any remarkable negative effects with recent times in particular. I am less staunch on the disciplinary side of things, but my opinion is still quite similar there.
    As I said, if urgency is a motivator it mean we were too slow to react.
    This proposal has nothing to do with with improving behavior. If you want to deal with that, please do so, but that is beyond the scope of this proposal.
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