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Thread: Decision: Elected Moderators

  1. #21
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Decision: Elected Moderators

    The problem with TWC moderation is that it behaves just like it behaved 8 years ago when this place has 5000 active users and CA could pop in at any minute with an exclusive announcement of Medieval 3.

    This place does not need more moderators or even elected moderators. It needs to wake up and smell the coffee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    I nominate Sir Adrian for Moderator.
    OPPOSED
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; October 22, 2021 at 11:51 AM.
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  2. #22
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Decision: Elected Moderators

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius Baltar View Post
    In the distant past moderators were actively recruited from the membership. Applications were encouraged and in some cases members were actively recruited for the position when there was a need for extra keyboards. I myself was recruited in this manner.
    What are you saying. That HEX does not recruit moderators anymore, or that they do so from outside the membership? And getting back to the proposal, if they were to be recruited from the membership, what would be the point of having elections, if HEX can just veto all candidates but their preferred one? Personally I prefer no elections over fake elections.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  3. #23

    Default Re: Decision: Elected Moderators

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    What are you saying. That HEX does not recruit moderators anymore, or that they do so from outside the membership? And getting back to the proposal, if they were to be recruited from the membership, what would be the point of having elections, if HEX can just veto all candidates but their preferred one? Personally I prefer no elections over fake elections.
    As per my previous post, Hex has always been able to veto election candidates. I have never seen them use this power to install their preferred person, and there is no reason to suspect that they would do it here.
    Last edited by Cope; October 22, 2021 at 03:04 PM.



  4. #24

    Default Re: Decision: Elected Moderators

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    The moderation doesn't dislike public criticism. If it did, there would be no Tribunal and commentary threads.
    Really? Is "moderation" the ultimate authority here?
    Can "moderation" just dismiss the Tribunal?

  5. #25
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: Decision: Elected Moderators

    No, Infidel, who misunderstands things in the course of his discussions, but Hex can and the leaders of Moderation are members of Hex, so if they disliked public criticism they would not have instituted the Tribunal in the first place or abolished it in the meantime - which is the gist of Abdül's post.
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  6. #26

    Default Re: Decision: Elected Moderators

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    No, Infidel, who misunderstands things in the course of his discussions, but Hex can and the leaders of Moderation are members of Hex,
    Nothing was mentioned about "Hex", in post 12, it was only about "moderation".
    Is it always the case that "leaders of Moderation" are members of "Hex"?
    so if they disliked public criticism they would not have instituted the Tribunal in the first place or abolished it in the meantime - which is the gist of Abdül's post.
    Is "they" here "moderation" or "Hex"?

  7. #27
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Decision: Elected Moderators

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    As per my previous post, Hex has always been able to veto election candidates.
    I said that because Hex can fire any moderator at any time they have a de facto veto in any moderator election. You say they have a de jure veto as per the constitution. I don't know why the distinction is of such importance that you need to bring it up once, let alone twice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    I have never seen them use this power to install their preferred person, and there is no reason to suspect that they would do it here.
    I suspect them not wanting to use their veto will result in Hex only allowing their preferred candidate(s) on the ballot to begin with. That is what happened the last time we had moderator 'elections'. I didn't enjoy elections where the only options were 'usual suspects' (90% of the time ex-moderators returning to duty). I fully understand why Hex preferred them but the circus of the Curia 'voting' or 'ratifying' was, if anything, demeaning to the citizenry.
    Last edited by Muizer; October 22, 2021 at 05:49 PM.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  8. #28

    Default Re: Decision: Elected Moderators

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    I said that because Hex can fire any moderator at any time they have a de facto veto in any moderator election. You say they have a de jure veto as per the constitution. I don't know why the distinction is of such importance that you need to bring it up once, let alone twice?
    The point was not to draw a distinction between explicit and de facto powers. It was to highlight that Hex veto powers for Curia elections has not undermined Magistrate, Consul or Praefecti (when they existed) elections. There is no reason to assume that they would undermine prospective Moderation elections.

    I suspect them not wanting to use their veto will result in Hex only allowing their preferred candidate(s) on the ballot to begin with.
    Blocking candidates from standing to begin with would be a use of the veto powers as outlined in the Constitution for other Curia elections.

    That is what happened the last time we had moderator 'elections'. I didn't enjoy elections where the only options were 'usual suspects' (90% of the time ex-moderators returning to duty). I fully understand why Hex preferred them but the circus of the Curia 'voting' or 'ratifying' was, if anything, demeaning to the citizenry.
    This is not the old days. I haven't seen Hex veto a candidate for a Curia election in years. Nor do I know of any recent instance of the Tribunes removing a Magistrate. Even assuming that Hex does decide to sabotage the elections, that will leave us in the same situation we are in now. Although I suspect this is all academic anyway.



  9. #29
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: Decision: Elected Moderators

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    Nothing was mentioned about "Hex", in post 12, it was only about "moderation".
    Is it always the case that "leaders of Moderation" are members of "Hex"?
    Yes.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

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  10. #30
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: Decision: Elected Moderators

    Blocking candidates from standing to begin with would be a use of the veto powers as outlined in the Constitution for other Curia elections.
    Correct.

    Any direct action taken by Hex (or moderation) to prevent the Curia from enacting any decision or amendment would almost certainly be regarded as a veto by the Consul.

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  11. #31
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Decision: Elected Moderators

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Correct.

    Any direct action taken by Hex (or moderation) to prevent the Curia from enacting any decision or amendment would almost certainly be regarded as a veto by the Consul.
    If I were in Hex, I'd avoid vetoing candidates by vetoing the legislation we're currently discussing, unless it contains a clause Hex get to decide who is nominated.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  12. #32

    Default Re: Decision: Elected Moderators

    No substantive reason has been provided which would explain why Hex would be frightened of a handful of Citizens being elected to temporary positions in Moderation. Does anyone really think that the likes of Athelstan, Van Zandt, Commodus, Gigantus (i.e. Citizens likely to be elected) pose a threat to the site? Even so, there would be a clause giving Hex the power to terminate any elected Moderator who was derelict in their duties (as is also the case for the Tribunal).



  13. #33
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: Decision: Elected Moderators

    You cannot justify a general change with hypothetical particular outcomes. If you want potentially every eligible citizen to be electable, you have to consider that case and not just the unproblematic ones of a few prolific individuals known for their general righteousness.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

    On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.

    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.
    In exile, but still under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Decision: Elected Moderators

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    You cannot justify a general change with hypothetical particular outcomes. If you want potentially every eligible citizen to be electable, you have to consider that case and not just the unproblematic ones of a few prolific individuals known for their general righteousness.
    The proposal appears to be being opposed on the basis that Citizens are too untrustworthy or incompetent to be be elected/elect Moderators. My point is that the opposite is true. Almost all of the Citizens who hold positions or who vote in elections care about this site and actively contribute. Even so, Hex would have the safeguard of being able to remove any elected Moderator who misused their position.
    Last edited by Cope; October 23, 2021 at 01:19 PM.



  15. #35

    Default Re: Decision: Elected Moderators

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    Yes.
    So, "leaders of moderation" always being members of "Hex" can just dismiss the tribunal.

  16. #36
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: Decision: Elected Moderators

    It is unsurprising, though disappointing for certain, to see those with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo advocating so desperately to retain their hold on power.

    If you want potentially every eligible citizen to be electable,
    Every Citizen who meets the qualifications, you mean.

    So, "leaders of moderation" always being members of "Hex" can just dismiss the tribunal.
    Yes.

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  17. #37
    Gigantus's Avatar I don't get worked up over people anymore: they get a post-it with 'ridiculous' on their forehead and that's it.
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    Default Re: Decision: Elected Moderators

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    If you want potentially every eligible citizen to be electable,
    Every Citizen who meets the qualifications, you mean.
    It's re-assuring that you know what eligible means (or not?). That's exactly what was meant.

    Aka the qualifications will include members that have a habit of trolling, disingenuous posting and otherwise intentionally skirting at the edge of the rules without attracting punitive moderation action.** Combine that with curial voting that has proven to be based on popularity rather then the criteria of the pollwhen it comes to these issues and it's unsurprising that objections are raised when it comes to appointing members to positions that are supposed to enforce the rules and will be given the ability to substantially edit other member's contributions.

    ** Love to see how you would quantify that, I am assuming you wouldn't really like to have members with those posting habits have those powers?
    Last edited by Gigantus; October 23, 2021 at 10:27 PM.




  18. #38
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    Default Re: Decision: Elected Moderators

    I am not sure there is much value in "ratifying" moderators. If you going to restore anything, the requirement that moderators be citizens in good standing would be one of them. In fact, any position held, a member should be a citizen in good standing.
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  19. #39
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    Default Re: Decision: Elected Moderators

    Well clean moderation record, as in real clean? That leaves me out .

    Jokes aside, it’s a nice idea but I don’t think it would fly. I would have concerns about it being a popularity contest in terms of voting then whether or not the person would be a good fit for moderation staff. So alright, make it from a pool of citizens to avoid that like in the OP, right? Not sure if having a citizen badge alone is supposed to be some magic token to protect against such things. Let the staff make those decisions “Don’t call us, we’ll call you”.
    Last edited by ELITEOFKINGWARMAN88; October 24, 2021 at 01:03 PM. Reason: Added on.

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Decision: Elected Moderators

    I have updated the OP with proposed language for the Decision.

    The Consul will post an thread for qualified citizens to respond. A debate thread will be added so that these volunteers can be questioned by the citizenry and staff as to their motives and qualifications for moderation positions. After 5 days a poll will be created. The top two vote-receiving applicants will then have their names advanced by Consul to the Head of Moderation for consideration as moderators.

    Qualifications: Citizens who have previously served as Curial officers, Magistrates or Tribunes.



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