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Thread: [Discussion] An idea to improve modding awards distribution

  1. #1
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default [Discussion] An idea to improve modding awards distribution

    Despite the ranty nature of the thread Anthonius actually raised a good point, there are people out there who fully deserve to be awarded and get nothing due to either not being noticed or sheer dumb luck or any mix of factors.

    Muizer made a very good point in that thread, which I'll quote here


    At the time I proposed modders should be able to submit their work according to a prescribed format throughout the year, creating a nice showcase in the process. I don't recall it ever coming to that, but I think that is the kind of step that is probably most likely to actually do something about the issue you raise. But it will require work on the modder's end. The Curia doesn't have the manpower, staff doesn't have the manpower, combined they don't have the manpower to do what you suggest.

    What I'm thinking is that we make a Modding Index thread (someone will come up with a better name) where we keep track of what everyone has been up to. The thread will be placed somewhere public, for example the Q&S or the Prothalamos and will be linked in every modding workshop subforum on the site (ex: in Three Kingdoms Modding Workshop) to achieve maximum visibility

    People who want their work to be indexed can send the thread curators* a standard template PM containing the things they have been working on and people can check the index and nominate whoever they feel like has enough to get a specific award.

    You don't have to be in the index to get nominated, it's just a tool to help you get nominated.


    A working example of the same principle can be seen, by content staff only, in the Articles Sorted By Author sticky in the Librarian Antechamber. We used that thread to keep track of utmost contributors and to hand out the scriptorium medal.


    * the thread can be curated by hex or staff or a team of 1-2-3-n volunteers.


    EDITG: Just to make it clear, I'm talking about nominations for 501st, Opifex, etc not the yearly Modding Awards.
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; October 10, 2021 at 03:40 PM.
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    Default Re: [Discussion] An idea to improve modding awards distribution

    This would be a productive outlet for a content publication, although I think the OP and this thought would both quickly go beyond the boundaries of curial influence.
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    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Discussion] An idea to improve modding awards distribution

    The problem is that they're published once every couple of months and not everyone in content is all that into modding. The idea is to have something that is easily and readily accessible that is curated by someone with modding knowledge to superficially vett the whole thing so you don't get troll entries. Having a simple thread is easier because all you need is someone with local mod privileges to edit it once a week.
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    Araval's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: [Discussion] An idea to improve modding awards distribution

    Do you mean that what everyone has been up to and things they have been working on = released? Otherwise, it'd seem you suggest modders should keep a diary about everything they do.

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    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: [Discussion] An idea to improve modding awards distribution

    Just to understand, you want this to be a Curial duty or else?
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    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: [Discussion] An idea to improve modding awards distribution

    Ussing the Archives :
    z3n proposed: 4 that awarded.
    Akar proposed 4 that awarded
    Others in total 8 that awarded
    From the active page:
    z3n proposed: 4 that awarded.
    Others proposed : 1 that awarded
    Take the calculations. two members have the eyes to locate several modders to propose by 75% in total (atleast what is accesible to use to see).
    Dear Emperor Commodus do those numbers look natural for you. You missed Sir Adrian;s point :
    there are people out there who fully deserve to be awarded and get nothing due to either not being noticed or sheer dumb luck or any mix of factors
    The question that emerges is simple. How two members can located several modders for awards (i do not say that they do not worth them) and the same time that have modders in front of their eyes for 14 years with much more contribution in modding , pass un-notticed? Is that bizzare or I am crazy? the easiest thing to do is to simply count the nominations.
    Numbers speah the truth....don't you agree?
    EDIT: From the TWC page for awards and their requirments:

    Opifex Awarded for exceptional modding or other TW-related contributions to the board.

    Modding Service Award To qualify for the Modding Service Award, the nominee must have participated within a workshop section with distinction over the span of 6 months or released a hosted modification.
    Awarded by the Curia for one or more of the following: creating a detailed and original tutorial containing relevant media (screenshots, video, code snippets), releasing a minor mod involving at minimum a single modding section (units, scripting, mapping, animations, sounds, media) of work estimated to have taken more than 5 hours or a remarkable act that benefits TWC modding community.

    Legio 501st Modder (Gold) Awarded by the Curia for one or more of the following: creating a detailed and original tutorial containing relevant media (screenshots, video, code snippets), releasing a minor mod involving at minimum a single modding section (units, scripting, mapping, animations, sounds, media) of work estimated to have taken more than 5 hours or a remarkable act that benefits TWC modding community.


    The one milion dollars question:
    A member that is active as researcher in more than 4 mods.
    That created a model source mod that has been used for over 40 mods.
    That created 2 Tutorials
    That created a released mod.
    That constantly helps new modders in the workshop.
    How many of these (IF NOT ALL) AWARDS deserve and how do you explain that despite that modder worked with famous modders over all these years his contribution to TWC modding community passsed "untiiced" while other nominees with much less contribution get atleast one or in many cases teo of these awards?
    Can you please write to me a reasonable expanation other that the one that many people are trying hard to get rid of that modder in the last 3 years from TWC?
    Last edited by AnthoniusII; October 11, 2021 at 06:33 AM.
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    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Discussion] An idea to improve modding awards distribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Araval View Post
    Do you mean that what everyone has been up to and things they have been working on = released? Otherwise, it'd seem you suggest modders should keep a diary about everything they do.
    Yes. I mean stuff that is eligible to be used in award and citivitate nominations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    Just to understand, you want this to be a Curial duty or else?
    Could be done by volunteers from the Curia or by staff, whichever is easier to implement.
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    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: [Discussion] An idea to improve modding awards distribution

    my problem here is with volunteers; IMO if you want to make this effective you need to make this an official position within the Curia, even elected if you prefer

    sorting on the Staff won't work IMO, there's no manpower for this and the Modding Staff already proved ineffective

    edit: let me expand, one of the problems I always had with similar proposal is that while they are absolutely embraceable, they are almost infeasible in practice, especially if one does not put their money where their mouth is. We are all volunteers here in a way or another, and when someone proposes something they have to be ready to carry it on. Remember the PotF....
    Last edited by Flinn; October 11, 2021 at 06:49 AM.
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    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Discussion] An idea to improve modding awards distribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    my problem here is with volunteers; IMO if you want to make this effective you need to make this an official position within the Curia, even elected if you prefer

    sorting on the Staff won't work IMO, there's no manpower for this and the Modding Staff already proved ineffective

    edit: let me expand, one of the problems I always had with similar proposal is that while they are absolutely embraceable, they are almost infeasible in practice, especially if one does not put their money where their mouth is. We are all volunteers here in a way or another, and when someone proposes something they have to be ready to carry it on. Remember the PotF....
    So we elect people. Or we can simply have the Curator take on another Censor for this duty. Honestly both solutions work with me. I made this a discussion so we can get to the most viable solution, and turn that into a proposal.
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    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: [Discussion] An idea to improve modding awards distribution

    Well it depends on how important one deems it for the Curia and the site as a whole and also how much work it will take to prepare that index and keep it updated.

    It would help to craft a proposal if you Adrian or anyone else who has the skill will make an evaluation of how time consuming this is; I have very little clues but as someone who has been managing the Modding Awards for 5 years, I'm expecting this to be more complex than most can expect.
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    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: [Discussion] An idea to improve modding awards distribution

    Once again, off topic posts are not allowed. Repeated off topic posts will be referred to moderation.

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    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: [Discussion] An idea to improve modding awards distribution

    It would help to craft a proposal if you Adrian or anyone else who has the skill will make an evaluation of how time consuming this is; I have very little clues but as someone who has been managing the Modding Awards for 5 years, I'm expecting this to be more complex than most can expect.
    Yep. I've been part of the committee for the past two years and it's been a lot of work, and I had by far the easiest job of them all (making the art).

    That being said, if people are willing to step up and put their money where their mouths are (as Flinn said) and volunteer to be the initial wave of staff I think this proposal has a much higher chance of getting off the ground.

    Or we can simply have the Curator take on another Censor for this duty.
    It would be better to have a specific elected position for this, I think. Anything that is assigned to the Censors is also the purview and domain of the Consul and I'm not sure this is a responsibility that will be persistently pursued by those who typically hold these positions without the prior will to do so. It's better to have someone specifically elected for this position that clearly wants it and displays the proper knowledge to fulfill their duties rather than an appointed Censor.
    Last edited by Akar; October 11, 2021 at 09:51 AM.

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    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: [Discussion] An idea to improve modding awards distribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    It would be better to have a specific elected position for this, I think. Anything that is assigned to the Censors is also the purview and domain of the Consul and I'm not sure this is a responsibility that will be persistently pursued by those who typically hold these positions without the prior will to do so. It's better to have someone specifically elected for this position that clearly wants it and displays the proper knowledge to fulfill their duties rather than an appointed Censor.
    I very much agree with this, but in order to define "what knowledge" is proper to fulfill those duties, at first we need an example of what that index might be. I apologize if I insist with this point, but as someone who has started various "things" at TWC, I know very well how important is to begin anything new with a clear task and framework available.
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    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: [Discussion] An idea to improve modding awards distribution

    I completely agree.

    It's very easy to say vote to do something in the abstract, it's entirely different to actually do it. Without a clear framework and goal in mind, this wont go anywhere.

    So, what's the goal? Making sure awards get in the hands of modders who deserve them? Removing any appearance of "bias" in the award process? Automate the process?

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    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: [Discussion] An idea to improve modding awards distribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    So, what's the goal?
    1. Making sure awards get in the hands of modders who deserve them?
    2. Removing any appearance of "bias" in the award process?
    3. Automate the process?

    You have just gave the answer your self and that is what i was asking for days now.
    Strange after all these days you come to my points...
    these are (all of them) the points that needed. Not personal favor to a modders work simply because we like his work and ignore others.
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    Default Re: [Discussion] An idea to improve modding awards distribution

    So how do you do that, then?

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  17. #17
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Discussion] An idea to improve modding awards distribution

    The goal here is to make it so that more deserving people get recognised, z3n mentioned a bunch of awardless modders in the other thread, and to make it easier for people such as myself to nominate others without having to ask said modder "hey, I think you could get a medal, mind sending me a summary of your work" and then go around and ask other modders "I wanna nominate this guy, do you think it would be enough for gold or just silver".

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    Well it depends on how important one deems it for the Curia and the site as a whole and also how much work it will take to prepare that index and keep it updated.

    It would help to craft a proposal if you Adrian or anyone else who has the skill will make an evaluation of how time consuming this is; I have very little clues but as someone who has been managing the Modding Awards for 5 years, I'm expecting this to be more complex than most can expect.
    Well, it depends. Beyond the initial set-up, which should probably take a couple of hours, if the index is updated weekly I estimate it should take about 30 minutes, depending on how popular this initiative is with modders. They way I see it whoever manages this thing should do 4 things.

    1. do a superficial vetting of whatever he receives (in other words check if the mod actually exists on twc and see if the links are real and link to actual work done on the site)
    2. update the specific modder's entry or create a new one.
    3. update modder names in case of name changes.
    4. remove any modding work that is no longer eligible for an award. or mark it as ineligible.

    I could do points 2-4 by myself without any issue whatsoever. Point 1 is tricky because I have no clue about modding so I could not tell the BS from the genuine, if it comes to that.

    On the modder's part they have to send links to any tutorials they write or mods they are working on the site (if sole developer) or links to a post that proves they are/were part of a team for mod x.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    I very much agree with this, but in order to define "what knowledge" is proper to fulfill those duties, at first we need an example of what that index might be. I apologize if I insist with this point, but as someone who has started various "things" at TWC, I know very well how important is to begin anything new with a clear task and framework available.
    Go to the staff area, Librarian Antechamber, there should be a sticky thread started by me called Articles Sorted by Author or something along those lines, unless it was moved since last year. That's what I imagine this thing is only instead of articles it's comprised of forum links and lines of text representing modding work that is eligible for awards. For those who do not have access to the content fora check any catalog in the scriptorium, only it has big fat headings linking to the user profile.

    Anyway I am open to any and all suggestions.


    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    I completely agree.

    It's very easy to say vote to do something in the abstract, it's entirely different to actually do it. Without a clear framework and goal in mind, this wont go anywhere.

    So, what's the goal? Making sure awards get in the hands of modders who deserve them? Removing any appearance of "bias" in the award process? Automate the process?

    That's why I started this as a discussion, so we can crystallize the framework and have a working concept before proposing. I was kind of hoping from Artifex input as well, but alas.
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; October 11, 2021 at 10:53 AM.
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  18. #18
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: [Discussion] An idea to improve modding awards distribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    So how do you do that, then?
    How moderators supervise the sections they are apointed in to even without "reports" of any posts?
    Apoint 2 moderators that already have the needed expirience in the game section they are responsible already to locate and evaluate each modder's or each mod's evolution via its modders contribution in to that mod or several other mods and here you go.
    For example Gigantus has all the needed knowlege to evaluate someone's modding progress because he is present to the mods section, participates by helpoing mods and has access to the Workshop (both in the learning sectionand the tools/tutorial one).
    Gigantus is just an example for many. The problem that emerges continues though..Will their recomedations be acceptable by those that will grant the awards or they will "pass" untill a friend of theors or a favorite mod of theor will be including in the awards list? Personally I lost any faith to your objectve point of view. Trust must be earned ...and by the Archives i read that trust has been lost. Someone wrote to me that my companions in the mod iwe crate should nominate me. My answer IS THIS: MY WORK SHOULD SPEAK FOR ME not a person. Of you can not handle the respensibillities of a title then leave it to someone that will carry the burden.
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    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: [Discussion] An idea to improve modding awards distribution

    @ AnthoniusII, I'm getting the impression you are not factoring in that TWC is run by volunteers. As a modder you should know what happens if you push volunteers to do work they don't like to do for too long: they burn out and/or leave. And they're right to leave, because they don't owe anybody anything. They can't be treated like waiters at a restaurant. We can't tell Gigantus or anyone else what they should be doing with their spare time. Few here deny the problem you raised is real, but there is no solution that does not take this into account. What you have proposed so far is just not sustainable.
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    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Discussion] An idea to improve modding awards distribution

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    How moderators supervise the sections they are apointed in to even without "reports" of any posts?
    Apoint 2 moderators that already have the needed expirience in the game section they are responsible already to locate and evaluate each modder's or each mod's evolution via its modders contribution in to that mod or several other mods and here you go.
    For example Gigantus has all the needed knowlege to evaluate someone's modding progress because he is present to the mods section, participates by helpoing mods and has access to the Workshop (both in the learning sectionand the tools/tutorial one).
    Gigantus is just an example for many. The problem that emerges continues though..Will their recomedations be acceptable by those that will grant the awards or they will "pass" untill a friend of theors or a favorite mod of theor will be including in the awards list? Personally I lost any faith to your objectve point of view. Trust must be earned ...and by the Archives i read that trust has been lost. Someone wrote to me that my companions in the mod iwe crate should nominate me. My answer IS THIS: MY WORK SHOULD SPEAK FOR ME not a person. Of you can not handle the respensibillities of a title then leave it to someone that will carry the burden.
    Moderators do not read every post in the sections they are responsible of, and when they do read posts they mostly look at whether it breaks the ToS or not. A moderator's job is to moderate, meaning to enforce the rules, not to compile lists for awards that may not even interest him.

    This is why we have discussed to make this a curia thing with elections.
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