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Thread: On the morality of evolution

  1. #41
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    So in the six thousand odd years of our existence
    Ahh you see I believe you have typo you meant to say ~4.5 billion years.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  2. #42
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Ahh you see I believe you have typo you meant to say ~4.5 billion years.
    conon394,

    No I meant the six thousand odd years of our existence according to the Word of God. I mean who was there 4.5 billion years ago? God was present when He made all things in what is our existence and we do have witnesses for that unlike you and your evolution.

  3. #43
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    You don't have the work not sure you to a passage that dates the world in the bible.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  4. #44
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    I mean who was there 4.5 billion years ago?
    We are, right now, present witnesses to events from billions of years ago.
    To look at the sun, one does not observe it as it is, we witness what the sun was 8 minutes ago. To look 1000 lightyears away we can see the effects of the closest blackhole, but we do not see it as it is, we see it as it was 1000 years ago.
    When we look further away in space we look further back in time and thus we can demonstrate/witness the ages of the celestial bodies. The speed of light is one of the few absolute, demonstrable, undeniable, constant and immutable facts of existence. If there is such a thing as the word of God, that is his first and last word. Any other words purported to be the word of God can only be considered secondary and subject to manipulation and imperfect interpretation made by fallen men.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  5. #45
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    We are, right now, present witnesses to events from billions of years ago.
    To look at the sun, one does not observe it as it is, we witness what the sun was 8 minutes ago. To look 1000 lightyears away we can see the effects of the closest blackhole, but we do not see it as it is, we see it as it was 1000 years ago.
    When we look further away in space we look further back in time and thus we can demonstrate/witness the ages of the celestial bodies. The speed of light is one of the few absolute, demonstrable, undeniable, constant and immutable facts of existence. If there is such a thing as the word of God, that is his first and last word. Any other words purported to be the word of God can only be considered secondary and subject to manipulation and imperfect interpretation made by fallen men.
    https://www.icr.org/article/uncertain-speed-light/

    It seems to me that the creationist rebuttal to the speed of light is as follows: scientists have put forward differing theories, so the science is untrustworthy, therefore we should trust the literal word of God, because it is simple.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  6. #46
    Gigantus's Avatar I don't get worked up over people anymore: they get a post-it with 'ridiculous' on their forehead and that's it.
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Yup: 'earth is center of universe, earth is not' - those dudes change their mind all the time. Church has been quite proactive in that matter - just ask Galileo and Bruno about it.




  7. #47
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    OK, it is written in the book of Job that God asked that man if he was there when God spread the stars out across space. So, what is in that? It suggests that the stars were much closer to the earth when He made them. The light they gave off was already to be seen and so as they were stretched out across the galaxies, as long as that light did not switch off, it didn't take billions of years to reach us at all. If your theory was correct then the big bang would have to be put back billions of years more making the very idea even more silly. God thankfully knew exactly what He was doing and He certainly didn't need billions of years to accomplish anything.

  8. #48
    Gigantus's Avatar I don't get worked up over people anymore: they get a post-it with 'ridiculous' on their forehead and that's it.
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Yeah, nothing beats a 6 day job when it comes to creating the universe. And nothing has changed since I guess as there have been no further job reports? Still cool how a female got made from a male body - only fruit flies have managed that since then. Go flies, go!




  9. #49
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    OK, it is written in the book of Job that God asked that man if he was there when God spread the stars out across space. So, what is in that? It suggests that the stars were much closer to the earth when He made them. The light they gave off was already to be seen and so as they were stretched out across the galaxies, as long as that light did not switch off, it didn't take billions of years to reach us at all. If your theory was correct then the big bang would have to be put back billions of years more making the very idea even more silly. God thankfully knew exactly what He was doing and He certainly didn't need billions of years to accomplish anything.
    Your resting a lot on what Gods quiz of Job (where mind you he does per saner his own questions much at all). I see no particular suggestion of the logic you are trying to use. But feel free to cite a particular passage and translation.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  10. #50
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    conon394,

    No, I'm resting on what God's word says and so in gathering the evidence together see the picture much clearer. All that we are and can see God holds in the palm of His Hand such is His majesty and Power.

  11. #51
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    You failed to confirm particular verse.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  12. #52
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    conon394,

    Quote, " Isaiah 49:16
    Behold, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are continually before me.

    Isaiah 41:10 ESV / 221 helpful votes
    Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.

    Isaiah 41:13 ESV / 198 helpful votes
    For I, the Lord your God, hold your right hand; it is I who say to you, “Fear not, I am the one who helps you.”

    John 10:29 ESV / 137 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
    My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

    John 10:28 ESV / 120 helpful votes
    I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

    Psalm 139:10 ESV / 119 helpful votes
    Even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me.

    Psalm 73:23 ESV / 70 helpful votes " unquote,

  13. #53
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    Quote, " Isaiah 49:16
    Behold, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are continually before me.

    Isaiah 41:10 ESV / 221 helpful votes
    Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.

    Isaiah 41:13 ESV / 198 helpful votes
    For I, the Lord your God, hold your right hand; it is I who say to you, “Fear not, I am the one who helps you.”

    John 10:29 ESV / 137 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
    My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

    John 10:28 ESV / 120 helpful votes
    I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

    Psalm 139:10 ESV / 119 helpful votes
    Even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me.

    Psalm 73:23 ESV / 70 helpful votes " unquote,
    err none of those are your reference to stars.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  14. #54
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    conon394,

    Job 9:8-10, Job 22: 12, Job 26:7

  15. #55
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    Job 9:8-10, Job 22: 12, Job 26:7
    Thanks. Tha is what thought but wanted specification.

    Nice parable but not really much to concept on. I get you have concluded to believe a subset of the works of some fairly small time Iron Age second rate peoples. As such when evidence contradicts their parables you scour the books for something vaguely talking about the heavens and ipso facto get if god wills it.

    Interesting read with notes on species changing as you watch with no human designer contra your earlier post.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...killer/496637/

    and

    https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...er-dna/503585/
    Last edited by conon394; October 14, 2021 at 08:49 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  16. #56
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Nice parable but not really much to concept on. I get you have concluded to believe a subset of the works of some fairly small time Iron Age second rate peoples. As such when evidence contradicts their parables you scour the books for something vaguely talking about the heavens and ipso facto get if god wills it.
    FYI, the Quran also has some pretty good vague stuff on the age/origins of the universe, including arguing things like the earth being 1/3 the age of the universe and being open to the concept of a multiverse. God wills it and all.

    Some choose to believe in Iron Age stories, some don't. I'm just glad I live in a society where my scepticism doesn't end with me burned alive by those with Iron Age standards of evidence.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  17. #57
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    conon394,

    I had a sneak look at your links and fail to see anything other than adaptation which every kind can do. That's not changing a monkey into a man. These Iron Age peoples knew the value of precious stones, could build spectacular things, saw the value in clean health, knew the earth was round so they weren't as dumb as you are insinuating.

  18. #58

    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    FYI, the Quran also has some pretty good vague stuff on the age/origins of the universe, including arguing things like the earth being 1/3 the age of the universe and being open to the concept of a multiverse.
    Where does the koran argue that the earth is 1/3rd the age of the universe?

  19. #59
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    I had a sneak look at your links and fail to see anything other than adaptation which every kind can do. That's not changing a monkey into a man. These Iron Age peoples knew the value of precious stones, could build spectacular things, saw the value in clean health, knew the earth was round so they weren't as dumb as you are insinuating.
    Did I say everyone? I was referring to parables in the OT and they are clearly not like reading Democritus or Eratosthenes...

    I had a sneak look at your links and fail to see anything other than adaptation which every kind can do. That's not changing a monkey into a man.
    Than you failed understand the key point I was tying to demonstrate. That a simple random mutation is not the only way for genetic change and the only way an organism can be altered. Second that those 'adaptations' in isolated populations can be swift and profound. Consider the potential of an all cloning population of females. in 10 generation and one without humans bumping all about and probably inducing new males of females from other islands. Over a longer period of time there is not evolutionary pressure or advantage to having any of traits that attracted males. In fact the female clones where least likely to attract males might now become the most dominate form. Now a random mutation could in fact in a cloning species produce something you would not recognize as a Butterfly. And since as the story pointed out one variant of the butterfly has seeming developed a mutation to stop the bacteria manipulations. You now have all the tools for over time for a truly novel change and even the possibility of flipping back to a male population as well.

    This observable evolution small changes within human comprehensible and observable time frame with no particulate design. Given a rational assumption the scale of the age of the earth it is sufficient to get a whole butterfly or not butterfly from the existing one. I do not need to prove a monkey changed into a man (since of course that is not what I would say ). Of course you with a time line based a mythological genealogy with is rather no more valid than any other and there are you/many will demand a buttery give birth to an ant but that is not my claim.
    Last edited by conon394; October 15, 2021 at 01:39 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  20. #60
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    That's not changing a monkey into a man.
    Sometimes a picture says more than thousand words.



    For me is it quite clear, that both of those , Gorilla and Human, developed from the same ancestor and not from some clay...
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; October 15, 2021 at 09:54 AM.
    Being like you are
    Well this is something else, who would comprehend?
    But some that do, lay claim Divine purpose blesses them
    That's not what I believe, and it doesn't matter anyway
    A part of your soul ties you to the next world
    Or maybe to the last, but I'm still not sure

    VNV Nation - Illusion


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