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Thread: On the morality of evolution

  1. #341
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    conon394,

    The thing is that when God created a man He left nothing to chance and when He created the woman from part of the man nothing also was left to chance because both are so intrically made for a specific purpose. That is why no transitionals have ever been found.

  2. #342
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Err lot transitional creatures demonstrated and have linked in these various threads for you . You never define what you are looking for, then you fall back on your no transitions mantra with some regularity.

    But I suppose I will waste my time you can show a transition I suppose - again I really have no ideal what you really mean/imagine by that and I'm sure you have no real sound basis for whatever you think you are demanding proof of... but I think its easily enough in fruit flies

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9565034/
    https://www.nature.com/articles/292635a0


    The thing is that when God created a man He left nothing to chance and when He created the woman from part of the man nothing also was left to chance because both are so intrically made for a specific purpose.
    Thus by that logic sex was intended in the garden.
    Last edited by conon394; June 16, 2022 at 02:05 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  3. #343
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    conon394,

    Our existence is but a story authored by God for His good pleasure meaning that everything that happens does so on the authority of God, why? Because He is God, Sovereign in every sense of the word and so that story in which we are a part is to bring a certain people to be a part of His family which He is doing even as I write.

    Evolution is no more than man's desire to keep God out of the picture and yet funnily enough all part of His plan for all them not to be in that family of God.

  4. #344
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Once you again ask a question get an answer ignore that answer and that assert I absolutely believe A, thus A is the only truth and nothing that contradicts how I believe A is true. In addition of course that fact that others believe A different now or in the past is also immaterial.

    Also you keep dodging no sex in the garden. When Adam and Eve were clearly in your view designed for sex and 1:28

    "28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

    Our existence is but a story authored by God for His good pleasure meaning that everything that happens does so on the authority of God, why? Because He is God
    That is circular logic that works for any believer in any religion. But if everything because of gods will than your fall and original sin was as well not a really nice picture and one the OT clearly does not support.

    Sovereign in every sense of the word and so that story in which we are a part is to bring a certain people to be a part of His family which He is doing even as I write.
    If that is true

    and also

    everything that happens does so on the authority of God
    That than the people who don't come to god also do because of his will somewhat cruel do you not think?

    So you never really have clearly answered if there is free will or just gods sock puppets for his rather sadistic amusement.

    and yet funnily enough all part of His plan for all them not to be in that family of God.
    Ah so god intentionally excludes people - nice religion you got there.

    That is why no transitionals have ever been found.
    You ignored the evidence presented clearly lots open to chance.
    Last edited by conon394; June 17, 2022 at 07:08 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  5. #345
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    conon394,

    Yes, God did say fill the earth but the earth was separate from the garden and so they didn't fill the earth until they were put out of the garden.

    As far as free will is concerned answer this? Were Adam and Eve allowed to do anything they wanted without any rules? No, they weren't, so their wills were not totally free. Once out into the world being bound by sin and ruled by Satan it is obvious that one cannot be bound to anything and still be free. Therefore all mankind has a will but it has never been free.

    So, if you think that God is unfair, how fair are you? Don't you know people that you dislike? Perhaps even a favourite in your family?

  6. #346
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Yes, God did say fill the earth but the earth was separate from the garden and so they didn't fill the earth until they were put out of the garden.
    That not how the text reads. Its clearly indicated in chapter 1 that they should be fruitful. And the geography supplied (later) fixes the garden as part of earth.

    As far as free will is concerned answer this? Were Adam and Eve allowed to do anything they wanted without any rules? No, they weren't, so their wills were not totally free.
    The existence of rules does not contravene the concept of free will

    Once out into the world being bound by sin and ruled by Satan it is obvious that one cannot be bound to anything and still be free
    They were punished for transgression specifically. Nothing supports you view of original sin and a fallen world or it being ruled by Satan

    So, if you think that God is unfair, how fair are you? Don't you know people that you dislike? Perhaps even a favourite in your family?
    What a very strange line of questioning. I make no claim to perfection or divinity. The question is irrelevant.
    Last edited by conon394; June 19, 2022 at 12:50 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  7. #347
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    conon394,

    After creation it is written that God planted a garden to the East of Eden so the garden was in addition to what was already established. Yes God did say be fruitful and multiply but yet Adam and Eve did not have offspring until they were put out.

    Adam being the head was accounted the one responsible for the sin committed and so that sin was the original.

    Try John 8:44-47, Ephesians 2:1-3, Mathew 4: 8-9, among many others tell of the Devil ruling this world.

    Yet you claim that God is cruel and unjust.

  8. #348
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    odd can't figure out I ended up with a double.
    Last edited by conon394; June 19, 2022 at 08:37 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  9. #349
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    After creation it is written that God planted a garden to the East of Eden so the garden was in addition to what was already established. Yes God did say be fruitful and multiply but yet Adam and Eve did not have offspring until they were put out.
    I love how just ignore things you say when they are contradicted. The garden was in the east but directly connected to the world by text of The OT contra your assertion. East of Eden is where Adam and eave got kicked out too.

    Adam being the head was accounted the one responsible for the sin committed and so that sin was the original.
    You are playing at sophism. The actual original sin is Eve's or technically the clever animal that is the serpent, but you know as well I was not concerned with the literal point of who committed a first sin. Rather with your concept of original sin that some how there is punishment for all creation in the OT which there is not. There are specific punishments handed out to the 3 perpetrators. And exile from the Garden because the OT tells us clearly that god feared Adam or Eve would make a run at the tree of life.

    Mathew 4: 8-9, among many others tell of the Devil ruling this world.
    Well first of course as always we double second hand reporting on this we have what Jesus says happened and what somebody says he said. But whatever. The key point is I would appear Jesus beloved in devils but nothing in Matthew says they rule the world.

    Yet you claim that God is cruel and unjust.
    Again Jericho QED.

    ----

    And just to be clear since evolution is the OP topic you read none of the fruit fly links I provided correct?
    Last edited by conon394; June 19, 2022 at 10:15 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  10. #350
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    conon394,

    Once again there has never been and never will be any transitional from one kind to another kind to be found anywhere. As for the rest of your arguments, they are quite wrong, why? Because even if God stood before you as He will one day you'll still be of the same mind.

  11. #351
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Once again there has never been and never will be any transitional from one kind to another kind to be found anywhere
    Yes you like saying that even when present with evidence. Please define what you you actually mean in long form. So you did not in fact read any of the links on fruit fly demonstrating that simple genetic alterations can in one generation tun and antenna into a leg or the other way as well?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  12. #352
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    conon394,

    Every kind that God made has had to learn to adapt to the conditions it finds itself in but that's not your version of evolution. No kind has ever turned into another kind, a fly is still a fly, a dog still a dog, a horse still a horse and a man still a man.

  13. #353
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    Every kind that God made has had to learn to adapt to the conditions it finds itself in but that's not your version of evolution. No kind has ever turned into another kind, a fly is still a fly, a dog still a dog, a horse still a horse and a man still a man.
    So presented with the evidence you demand you simply move back to mantra - OK.

    Of course that also simply ignores the evidence of the fossil record.
    Last edited by conon394; June 21, 2022 at 08:57 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  14. #354
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    conon394,

    There is no fossil depicting one kind changing into another. Everytime that is claimed it is quickly debunked. In other words there is no evidence.

  15. #355
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    No kind has ever turned into another kind, a fly is still a fly, a dog still a dog, a horse still a horse and a man still a man.
    I'm quite sure this has been explained before. Evolution sees the development of species as the tips of branches of a growing tree. Branches can grow and fork, but it's a one-way process: At any time, only the tips of the branches exist. Fossils are the chance impressions left by the tips of the tree when it was younger. Once there was a tip that forked, with one branch becoming cats and another dogs. The forking point was their common ancestor. When you say cats remain cats and dogs remain dogs, that is in agreement with evolution to the extent that the two branches will never rejoin. But they can grow (change), and they can split, producing new species that never existed before.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  16. #356
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    There is no fossil depicting one kind changing into another. Everytime that is claimed it is quickly debunked. In other words there is no evidence.
    You have not really described what you think of as as a transition. I could post links the emergence of dinosaurs with feathers that are not previously in the fossil record and thus the path to birds and be sure would ignore it. I could again post the observable evidence in fruit fly that small genetic alterations (and environment) lead to radical alterations in morphology.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  17. #357
    chriscase's Avatar Chairman Miao
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    The topic of this thread is not whether the theory of evolution is a valid scientific theory. Nor is it whether evolution as an entity in itself might possess some moral faculty.

    The question posed in the OP is whether, taking the theory of evolution as established science, we as humans have any moral or ethical obligations that follow from that. Given the question, further disputes about the validity of the theory of evolution serve no purpose other than to disrupt discussion of the actual topic, and will no longer be entertained in the thread.

    If members wish to dispute the rudiments of the theory of evolution, that will need to continue in a different thread.

    In this thread, for the sake of argument, we will assume the theory of evolution is valid so that some discussion of the OP's question can occur. Otherwise, this thread will be closed.
    Last edited by chriscase; June 22, 2022 at 10:47 PM.

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  18. #358
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Assuming evolution is an established science why would we need to have moral or ethical obligations other than to let it take its course which it will do regardless of us?
    Last edited by chriscase; June 24, 2022 at 08:25 AM. Reason: commentary on moderation is off topic

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