Page 14 of 18 FirstFirst ... 456789101112131415161718 LastLast
Results 261 to 280 of 358

Thread: On the morality of evolution

  1. #261
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    16,794

    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    The observable facts are all around you and the super genetic strain that you talk of, what did it do for all the fossils? Dead and gone me thinks.
    You are being almost childish. And also putting words in my mouth did a I claim there was a super genetic strain of anything? How do you get from the statement that some genetic mutation are beneficial, to see look extinct creatures?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  2. #262
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    11,280

    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    conon384,

    I don't remember saying mutations that but however it remains that mutations are weaker then what they came from. Take Covid as an example for each new strain may appear more virulent but in fact is weaker as statistics show. Less people are dying from them.

  3. #263
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    16,794

    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon384,

    I don't remember saying mutations that but however it remains that mutations are weaker then what they came from. Take Covid as an example for each new strain may appear more virulent but in fact is weaker as statistics show. Less people are dying from them.
    Err that not how evolution works. It behooves a virus not at all to more deadly to its host. Being both more transmissible and less deadly is a ticket to being endemic -> More virus in the world -> Better from the perspective of the virus. Is hard to avoid anthropomorphic sounding typing But ideally a virus wants to be like the Avian influenza in North American Water fowl - that is asymptomatic. It spreads but causes its host most of the time no real heath issue or at least a minor one like say a common cold (that is of course bad news for poultry farmers because their stock is both vulnerable and dies rather rapidly when infected). If it killed water fowl at the rate it kills domesticated chickens It might very well burn itself out.

    but however it remains that mutations are weaker then what they came from
    No. That all depends on there effect, and the environment in which they occur

    Again compare Ebola or Marburg. Those viruses are 'weak' by definition in Fruit bats since the bats basically live fine lives as the reservoir species. Neither sick nor suffering a evolutionary disadvantage. But jumping to humans or Primates and things are not so good (for the hominid or primate). The virus is not 'stronger' It just ran into an immune system not equipped to deal with so it kills of hits new novel host a what historically was likely an unsustainable rate before humans had built large poor towns in Africa.

    #248 by the way

    "you must know that each mutation weakens rather than enhances the lineage it belongs to"

    statistics show. Less people are dying from them.
    Of course you have done the maths to correctly adjust for full vaccination, partial vaccination, refinements in treatments, survivor immunity, and various anti viral treatments - yes?
    Last edited by conon394; May 18, 2022 at 08:43 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  4. #264
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    11,280

    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    conon394,

    Getting back to evolution itself, I have never known a time when Vets are so busy caring for sick animals. Why are there so many sick animals today if the strains are supposed to be stronger?

  5. #265
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    16,794

    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    Getting back to evolution itself, I have never known a time when Vets are so busy caring for sick animals. Why are there so many sick animals today if the strains are supposed to be stronger?
    A random personal observation is not strong evidence. But I'll counter people in Europe and America are wealthier than in the past and it is more common now than in the past to treat animals as friends thus more vets caring for more animals. In any case evolution does not equal being 'stronger' in some kind of liner fashion again you really do not seem to have a hand on the mechanisms in play.

    I am also not sure what you mean by strain.

    But also a with a personal example. My wife as teen took in a friends somewhat dumb but well trained hose when the friends family had to move. Her parents could afford two horses and the plan was find a new owner for it locally. Foolish horse got itself cut really badly by panicking after getting stuck trying get through the barbed wire fence. Now back in wife's grandfathers day in very rural Washington on the farm when that horse had a working job, the answer would have been to put it down. In Spokane however call a vet after all the horse might heal to a bit lame but it would be an excellent horse for somebody who wanted to learn to ride or even a trail horse for tourists but it was not expected to be a working horse for real. The more your domestic animal moves from being a furry tool to being a furry friend and the wealthier your society is the more money that will be spent on vets.

    In addition with so many routine pet health care treatments being cheap and readily available (de worming, shots) and better diets you get more geriatric animals that people care for so more late in life health issues that probably likely were not common in the past. My old male black cat is fixed but he is a fighter , but only with feral males. at 17 limping, missing most of one ear, not able to close one eye and with scaring giving him a perpetual rictus grin, not to mention tons of white scar hair patches and slightly broken tail although I am betting that was a car he still goes out at night to find a fight. Now the amount vet care he needed to still do that is rather more than I think he would have had in the past and died long since.
    Last edited by conon394; May 16, 2022 at 02:51 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  6. #266
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    11,280

    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    conon394,

    By strain, I meant kinds or breeds. Evolution is supposed to be about the survival of the fittest which I take to mean each mutation being stronger than the one before yet it is not, why?

    We have a Siberian Husky who has hip dysplasia and the tendons on his front ankles irrepairable. In the last year he has had two seizures with convulsions and in the last two weeks he has refused to eat so the vet gave him steroids and antibiotics which has helped but making his poo black and runny. Over and above that he is drinking copious amounts of water meaning he has us up at all hours to get out to piddle. One night after getting his steroids I let him out and went into the kitchen to see out the back window what he would do and as I stepped forward towards the window it happened. Squelch, squelch, it went in between my toes. He had skittered on the three mats my wife had put down to stop him sliding on the floor. So, there was I in the middle of the night down on my hauches cleaning the floor and doing the best I could on the mats. Thankfully there have been no repeats in the house. The point I am making is that there is a genetic flaw in Huskys that one would have thought evolution would have cleared long ago.

    If nothing else I thought you could have a good chuckle to yourself over my little experience.

  7. #267
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    16,794

    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    By strain, I meant kinds or breeds. Evolution is supposed to be about the survival of the fittest which I take to mean each mutation being stronger than the one before yet it is not, why?
    Ahh so we have circled around to where I thought you were going.

    It is a problematic phrase because it does lead to exactly the question you ask. A better way to think is evolution is survival under current environmental pressures of the good enough...

    Consider say a farmers field and also say the weeds it has. One fine day the farmer starts using round up and low behold the weeds die. but in a year or three some weeds don't. Now either they were lucky a mutation happened or they were some of the few that already had a variation that allowed to shrug off the herbicide. But here is the thing that variation is much not likely to be the functional equivalent of the constructed resistance that Mosanto's crops have. It is fact just good enough under the new environmental situation. Now say the farmer dies and his fields go fallow... Its certainly possible that our 'super weed' might in fact have low drought tolerance, or have poor germination and any number number of factors that without round up in the mix make it less competitive suddenly and it is reduced or dies out because it no longer has a competitive advantage in the new environment. It was never stronger just good enough for the environment it was in.

    If nothing else I thought you could have a good chuckle to yourself over my little experience.
    Well I can sympathize. But not a dog person cats and horses I am good with never get dogs well. If I step on something squishy at night its either a dead rodent (I am sure delivered to my bed side with pride and affection) or a hairball (or some affect of one my kids art projects left not cleaned up)

    The point I am making is that there is a genetic flaw in Huskys that one would have thought evolution would have cleared long ago.
    Nope. Because a domesticated animal is primarily under the selection pressure of humans. So a deleterious trait is not problem for reproduction if humans want the overall basket of genes that is a husky to continue to be a husky that is how it will stay. But in general there is no clearing out. As long as people want huskies there is not environmental pressure for a negative mutation to be removed.

    Again evolution is good enough not some line plan toward perfection.

    How old is the Huskey?
    Last edited by conon394; May 17, 2022 at 03:37 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  8. #268
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    11,280

    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    conon394,

    He is 8 years old, one who attracts people wherever he goes. We started married life with a German Shepherd who was crippled with dysplasia and whom the vet wanted to put down yet despite us refusing she lived for 11 years. Our next dog was a Belgian Malenois who lived 15 years even had to have a cruciate ligament repaired during that time. We treasure every moment we had with them and it breaks our hearts to think of the suffering they went through and in Storm's case still going through. If evolution really was correct why do animals in general die so young?

  9. #269
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    16,794

    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    If evolution really was correct why do animals in general die so young?
    I really again am perplexed at your question. What does evolution being correct have to do with life span? And Dogs are not an example of all animals... Off the top of my head Elephants have an expected life span that matches humans, blue whales longer. Tortoise and some parrots/macaws would almost certainty be expected to outlive their human owner if kept as pets (assuming good care). Evolution is not about one individual there is no selective pressure to make you perfect. It is to make sure you are good enough to successfully pass your on genetics and produce second generation progeny (under the environmental pressures that you live under). The selective pressure is for you to reproduce and knock off the maximum number of copies of your genes (well like I said really the inflection point is after another generation down the line so really 'grand children')

    But to restate the selective pressure on dogs is human desire. And first and foremost that is how they look and how they act. In reality there is no particular pressure to avoid physical issues as few dogs are working dogs anymore. Given wolves can live something like 14-16 years in the wild dogs often manage that they seem to live mostly as long as you expect.
    Last edited by conon394; May 19, 2022 at 06:09 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  10. #270
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    11,280

    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    conon394,

    My point is that if there is such a thing as survival of the fittest why is life still limited to what we have?

  11. #271
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    16,794

    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    My point is that if there is such a thing as survival of the fittest why is life still limited to what we have?
    It as I have said 2 or 3 time is a poor turn of phrase. And again even if using as you demand (or seem to understand it a liner march to perfection) it would still the fittest set of genes able to reproducible itself in the environmental situation it is in. Longevity of X or longer may or may not help that so it may or may not be a something where positive mutation are retained and or become dominate. You are ignoring answers and being pedantic. It is better described as survival of good enough under specific environmental circumstance. Humans are not better than the Norway rat in niche the the Norway rat fills. Also clearly Bacteria are doing quite well now at ~4 quadrillion quadrillion in population and biomass of ~1,000,000 million tons. There are quite successfully passing along their genetics.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3295054/

    Aging Genetics and Aging

    "Examples of the importance of genetic factors in aging include genes that maintain organism structure and function throughout life, alleles that enhance reproductive capacity early in life but have negative effects later in life when their impact has escaped natural selective pressure, and constitutional mutations that are phenotypically relevant until late in life, when they have eluded selection and cannot be removed from the population [2426]."

    Basically the point is from a genetics point of view it is potentially better to carry a set of traits that make reproduction more efficient early even if thay are also associated with aging consequences later.

    why is life still limited to what we have?
    Of course I could be misapprehending another of your vague questions so do feel free to be more precise and indicate you mean a creatures average/expected life span.

    Also you are latching on to a phrase that is very old. Darwin for example had no access to the modern genetics or epigenetics or even really basic work of Mendel. Once again by repeating the same statement over over again you frankly look as silly as if you were to say atomic theory is a wash because the Thomson Atom model has been superseded (but was cutting edge over a 100 years ago).

    Also niffy fact "survival of the fittest" Is not Darwin's
    Last edited by conon394; May 19, 2022 at 06:45 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  12. #272
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    11,280

    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    conon394,

    You see my problem with evolution is where did each species really come from if they all derived out of the soup? Was it really just chance that some became fish, others birds and animals?

  13. #273
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    16,794

    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    You see my problem with evolution is where did each species really come from if they all derived out of the soup? Was it really just chance that some became fish, others birds and animals?
    More or less yes. Chance(*), time and and the varying selective pressures over time and of place that are of course changeable and varied.

    * chance in the broadest way, but again the environmental pressure creates the potential for gene expression that leads to differentiation and also making one phenotype more effective at reproducing.
    Last edited by conon394; May 20, 2022 at 10:07 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  14. #274
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    11,280

    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    conon394,

    What pressures? Since it is supposedly all of chance how did creepie crawlies emerge from soup to land? You see no-one was around to see this event play out so how do you know it's true? They say that there are 5.7 million different species on this planet yet not one found on any other planet, why not? Since nothing happens by chance there must be a scientific answer that is much better and there is, God made everything that there is, Him being the Grand Designer.

  15. #275
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    16,794

    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    They say that there are 5.7 million different species on this planet yet not one found on any other planet
    Our sample set is almost fantastically small and exploration of what have to is also a fraction of that. If you stumbled into a house in London and found it abandoned. Would you declare there is no life in London?

    What pressures
    Any number of environmental factors that are always changing. Then rise of different species, etc

    https://earthsky.org/earth/why-were-...sects-so-huge/

    So you have at least two pressures to alter insects decreasing oxygen in the atmosphere and emergence of better flying competitors.

    Since it is supposedly all of chance how did creepie crawlies emerge from soup to land?
    Something via chance became able lurch up on land long enough to access more food (or any other benefit that let it reproduce more often). It reproduced and its phenotype was passed down.

    You see no-one was around to see this event play out so how do you know it's true?
    Fossil record, but I am sure you will choose to dismiss that.

    Since nothing happens by chance there must be a scientific answer that is much better
    That is more or less false logic. And if fact you don't want a scientific answer you want a simple deterministic one and you have found one to believe in there are others but such is belief.

    God made everything that there is, Him being the Grand Designer.
    No more valid than any other creation Myth.
    Last edited by conon394; May 21, 2022 at 07:37 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  16. #276
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    11,280

    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    conon394,

    So, there were houses inhabited by living creatures in the soup? You know this how?

    Adapting within a kind is not unusual but changing from a dog to a cat certainly would be or as you guys accept changing from an ape into a human.

    So, something unknown was able to swim to some land to become something we do know, how convenient.

    As far as the fossil record goes there is not even a hint that evolution is true as you guys believe, why? Because we know that fossils can be made in days not needing billions of years to become one.

    The chance that you believe made things possible has to be the big bang yet that procedure is itself not plausible, why? Because explosions cannot make anything but chaos not order.

    And, since God did make all that we see then His version has to be the correct one.

  17. #277
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
    Patrician Artifex Magistrate

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    11,088

    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    So, there were houses inhabited by living creatures in the soup? You know this how?
    No, not "so". "So" implies some sort of logical connection to what went before. Your "so" does not. I agree the idea of houses inhabited by living creatures in the soup is completely ridiculous. But it's your idea, not Conon's.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Adapting within a kind is not unusual but changing from a dog to a cat certainly would be or as you guys accept changing from an ape into a human.
    You demonstrate a fundamental unwillingness to engage with the reasoning of other people. I don't know how many times it must have been explained that "changing from a cat to a dog" is not something evolution says can ever happen. Evolution theory states that there is such a thing as a tree of life. A branching of species. Evolution never involves one branch becoming another existing branch as per dogs changing into cats. Those have split off at some point from a common ancestor branch and will never join again.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    As far as the fossil record goes there is not even a hint that evolution is true as you guys believe, why? Because we know that fossils can be made in days not needing billions of years to become one.
    The fossil record establishes the sequence of evolutionary change, not its dating. The actual estimates of how old fossils are in absolute terms come from different techniques, e.g. based on radioactive decay.


    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    The chance that you believe made things possible has to be the big bang yet that procedure is itself not plausible, why? Because explosions cannot make anything but chaos not order.
    In fact, chaos (entropy) is ever increasing in the universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    And, since God did make all that we see then His version has to be the correct one.
    Circular argument.

    The way I see it, I look at what we know about the universe and our place in it and conclude that the story of genesis is at the very best a garbled and dumbed down version. Like something a 3 year old would be able to reproduce after his father tried to explain how computers work. Do you think the father would be pleased if, as a grown up, his son would still cling to this version?
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  18. #278
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    16,794

    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    So, there were houses inhabited by living creatures in the soup? You know this how?
    What? The analogy was part of a reply about life on other planets. There are now depending on how you make the count ~5000+ exoplanets and we cant really explore them (and their number implies a vast amount more) and the ones we can reach and their moons we have hardly touched. So really I was off it is more like finding an empty shoe box in London and declaring there is no life but me here. Were you just being obtuse to willfully misunderstand the point.

    Adapting within a kind is not unusual but changing from a dog to a cat certainly would be or as you guys accept changing from an ape into a human.
    No rather I accept that modern primates and hominids have a recent (in say geological terms recent) common ancestor. No cats do not spontaneously change into dogs. And nothing in evolutionary science would suggest that.

    So, something unknown was able to swim to some land to become something we do know, how convenient.
    Again that's what fossil record shows. Fungus and other simple organisms began to colonize the land, and were followed by things like centipedes thus starting to create a ecosystem that larger animals could potential exploit for food. I see no point in assembling the links to describe that because you ignore them.

    But re Fungus. https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-life-on-land/

    Also earliest known thing that heave itself on land

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktaalik

    As far as the fossil record goes there is not even a hint that evolution is true as you guys believe, why?
    I have posed numerous links that render your statement invalid. You either ignore them or refine your demand to something absurd.

    Because we know that fossils can be made in days not needing billions of years to become one.
    Laboratory simulations are just that simulation they are not a direct reflection off the natural process of fossil creation.

    The chance that you believe made things possible has to be the big bang yet that procedure is itself not plausible, why? Because explosions cannot make anything but chaos not order.
    It is the working most plausible explanation of observable events and evidence.

    And, since God did make all that we see then His version has to be the correct one.
    Which god. And just saying god made everything out of nothing is really more improbable than the big bang. Nore is any more probable that Greek creation story. For example the Bible says 'He also made the stars'. Its part of a nice poetical opening. But its clearly the work of a people who had no conception of what they were looking at. It does and cannot predict exo planets (or even the local ones) , nor the fact the one of those stars (Sagittarius A*) is in fact the black hole (well rather the light from super hot gas swirling around it) at the center of are galaxy. But the science that can predict those leads to a big bang.

    -------------------

    e.g. based on radioactive decay.
    Yes but he latched onto a quack who decided only I think polonium has a stable decay rate everything else is apparently variable based on no evidence.
    Last edited by conon394; May 22, 2022 at 05:18 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  19. #279
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    11,280

    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Muizer,

    The most profound statement ever made to mankind is, " In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Your conclusion that He didn't is mere speculation built on what? Well after the six days of creation all things were mature, up and running, and that's where your confusion comes in, how? Because things being mature had to take time but not with God something you could never accept. Therefore a reason had to be found to disagree with God being our Creator and so the fact that certain living things can actually adapt to certain conditions was accepted as being the altrnative to God. You just added the name evolution and billions of years with no evidence to make it plausible.

  20. #280
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    16,794

    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    The most profound statement ever made to mankind is, " In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
    I rather like the beginning of Iliad better and fair number of the Bard's openings

    Your conclusion that He didn't is mere speculation built on what?
    Evidence better than yours based on one iron age people religion myths.

    You just added the name evolution and billions of years with no evidence to make it plausible.
    Lots of evidence for the age of the universe you just sorta ignore it.
    Last edited by conon394; May 23, 2022 at 03:04 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •