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Thread: On the morality of evolution

  1. #281
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Your conclusion that He didn't is mere speculation built on what?
    I'm not disputing the existence of a divine creator. I am disputing that the account in Genesis has anything relevant to say about it. I rely on repeatability and independent verification of observations. You rely on hearsay.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Well after the six days of creation all things were mature, up and running, and that's where your confusion comes in, how? Because things being mature had to take time but not with God something you could never accept.
    This is a non-issue. If God created the universe in 6 days to look exactly as if it developed over 13.4 billion years old, then there is no meaningful difference between God's 6 days and 13.4 billion years. The only one who could exactly create a Rembrandt was Rembrandt. Point being, if there's a creator, the big bang, the origin of life are all part of the exercise. And then there is no reason to assume this is not continuing to the present day, without any discontinuity when the creator was "finished" creating.


    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    herefore a reason had to be found to disagree with God being our Creator and so the fact that certain living things can actually adapt to certain conditions was accepted as being the altrnative to God. You just added the name evolution and billions of years with no evidence to make it plausible.
    Not really. I'm just saying that if you believe the Universe is God's work, you can either use your god given senses and intellect to appreciate its magnificence or rely on hearsay to believe in one of the many primitive myth origins that is Genesis.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Muizer,

    So, what is it about the account of Genesis that is only a myth in origin?

  3. #283
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Muizer,

    So, what is it about the account of Genesis that is only a myth in origin?
    It is clearly not a factual description of creation. The earth can't have existed before there was light. It can't have existed before there were stars. There can't have been a day and a night , or plants!?! before the sun was created. Seed baring plants did not arise before the fish in the sea (or animals on land, for that matter). Birds definitely did not apppear before animals on land.

    If it were a faithfully preserved divine revelation, then God chose to lie. I don't believe that is something God would do. Do you? And so, I have to conclude it's a myth.

    And it is far easier to view Genesis as a primitive myth. Because the 'partitioning' of the earth (sea with fish, sky with birds, land with plants and animals, heavens with the sun, moon and stars) is clearly a partitioning of space not time. It's not an actual history. It's a sequence of putting together the pieces of Earth as it is now, like a 3D jigsaw puzzle. Whoever came up with it had only the most primitive notion of the passage of time, believing the world is essentially static.

    I sometimes think you share that view, which tbh I find rather scary.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  4. #284
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    So, what is it about the account of Genesis that is only a myth in origin?
    Better question would be what does not make it a creation myth.
    Last edited by conon394; May 26, 2022 at 07:19 AM.
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Whoever came up with it had only the most primitive notion of the passage of time, believing the world is essentially static.
    It'd also imply that all the first chickens were born at the same time from eggs and grew up without parents. Or maybe all of them started as eggs?

    Unless, of course, entire societies of all animals were created in a blink, that is, families made of male chickens and female chickens with their eggs just happened to come into existence. But wouldn't it be very awkward since they never had sex prior to that point? Or all their memories were just implanted?

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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    AqD,

    It is written that God made everything to its own kind and just as He made Adam and Eve, male and female, so too did He make the living creatures. The most powerful drive that all have is to reproduce and so that my friend is what make the world go round and round.

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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    What are the ages of Adam and Eve when they came into existence?

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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    AqD,

    It is not written at what age God made them so they could have been in their teens which for His chosen people was the coming of age. At twelve I was firing a 303 caliber rifle as well as papering and painting among many other things so what's the point of your question?

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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    So you agree they were born without parents as most other animals?

    Are you aware not having proper family is the cause of many social problems and among them violence and lack of self control? Do you not consider it cruel?

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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    AqD,

    First off, they weren't born, they were created as fully functioning living beings each to its own kind. There were no social problems in the garden for that didn't happen until they were put out of it. The knowledge of good and evil changed the nature of all things plus the curse of sin only added further to that. We are no different today from what they went through then.

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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    There were no social problems in the garden for that didn't happen until they were put out of it
    Technically that is not true clearly the serpent Eve and Adam all had a social problem in the garden according to the story.

    The knowledge of good and evil changed the nature of all things
    No it changed Eve and Adam... you just making stuff up now.

    plus the curse of sin only added further to that
    Not your duelist original sin found only in Paul and refined by Augustine and further by Calvinist types.

    We are no different today from what they went through then
    Let you say that is 6000 years or so in your story early so early Sumer sure... but go back to archaic humans before they ran into Neanderthals and other hominids not so much like us yet close but not the same.
    Last edited by conon394; May 27, 2022 at 08:54 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    conon394,

    Still in pain at the loss of Storm so I'll be as brief as possible. Until the devil in the serpent persuaded Eve that God didn't mean what He said there were no problems in the garden so why did it happen at all? As I've said many times now our story is all about God and the eventual coming of Christ to save an elect people and so what happened in the garden was the very beginning of that story. The garden was a picture, a figure of heaven and since evil cannot be allowed in heaven the threesome were cast out into a world that now had pestilences in which man would have to strive with. All creation was fallen. Today's world has the same problems.

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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    err double
    Last edited by conon394; May 28, 2022 at 12:08 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    Still in pain at the loss of Storm so I'll be as brief as possible. Until the devil in the serpent persuaded Eve that God didn't mean what He said there were no problems in the garden so why did it happen at all? As I've said many times now our story is all about God and the eventual coming of Christ to save an elect people and so what happened in the garden was the very beginning of that story. The garden was a picture, a figure of heaven and since evil cannot be allowed in heaven the threesome were cast out into a world that now had pestilences in which man would have to strive with. All creation was fallen. Today's world has the same problems.
    Sorry about your Dog.

    That said that is some really convoluted logic to alter the plain text of the OT.


    Until the devil in the serpent persuaded Eve that God didn't mean what He said there were no problems in the garden
    There is no duality Manichaeism devil in the OT story the serpent is just the serpent an animal as described.

    so why did it happen at all?
    Because people need a story to describe why their lives are not awesome all the time if there god is otherwise all power and all knowing etc.

    As I've said many times now our story is all about God and the eventual coming of Christ to save an elect people and so what happened in the garden
    That a really silly plan unless god really enjoys people suffering. And of course not of that is in the OT. That is again just proof you are follower of Paul and the Augustine refinements (neo Manichaeism)

    All creation was fallen
    Not clear in the OT and never indicated so nor original sin (as in something everything was tagged with)
    Last edited by conon394; May 28, 2022 at 12:06 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    conon394,

    Thanks for your words about Storm. I miss him terribly.

    If it is not true to what the Scriptures roll out then how did the serpent get the knowledge to contradict God? How could it say that if Eve ate of the fruit she would be just like God and that she wouldn't die if at that time nobody knew what death was?

    As for Paul, what has he written that is not what the disciples preached? Outside of James insisting that any convert be circumcised and James himself at that point not converted, there is nothing to suggest that Paul contradicted the Gospel in any way.

    As for the originality of sin that happened when the twosome plus the serpent disbelieved God and therefore disobeyed Him the result of which they were cast out of the garden into a world where they would struggle. Death and destruction added by famines, pestilences, diseases, droughts, wars, rape and murder was the norm yet it wasn't when in the garden, why? The garden was good for life because nothing like that happened in it yet when they were cast out that was the world they now had to live in and do so because of their sin. Is the world any different today?

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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    ...
    Not clear in the OT and never indicated so nor original sin (as in something everything was tagged with)
    Yes there's no sin in Eden at all. In fact if we take Genesis 1 and 2 as a model for our lived, then there's a wonderful lesson for us about diversity.

    God is the image of men and women (genderfluid), a single parent, and Christians insist they have multiple personalities. The man is constructed artificially and the woman is created surgically, clearly condoning in vitro and gender related operations. There is no marriage ceremony mentioned anywhere. This is all very modern.

    On the other hand there's also negative elements. God offers Adam all the animals as a partner ("helpmeet", same word used for his later wife) before he genetically engineers a woman for him. He also leaves newborns unsupervised with fruit that he claims is deadly, as well as a snake.

    I think Community services would like a word with God about their parenting, but they are not beyond redemption.
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Cyclops,

    Man was made in the image of God and woman was made in the image of man, male and female He created them. Sexual activity did not begin until after the fall and their exit from the garden, why? Because as Jesus was to say, and Him our Creator, there is no giving and taking in marriage in heaven meaning sex. As for being unsupervised that's not right as God walked and talked with Adam in the garden which along with Adam's duties would mean that he was a man not a child. So what makes a man by age? Well in Jewish tradition a child became a man at 13/14 years of age so there would be nothing untowards if Adam was created around that age. Why at fourteen I was a military cadet able to fire a 303 caliber rifle and doing exercises with Sandhurst Officer Cadets at camps and served until I was twenty. Come on man, all you are doing is nitpicking.

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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Man was made in the image of God and woman was made in the image of man, male and female He created them
    Kinda put a damper on your god as some unbearable just light thing.

    Sexual activity did not begin until after the fall and their exit from the garden, why? Because as Jesus was to say, and Him our Creator, there is no giving and taking in marriage in heaven meaning sex.
    That some serious logic twisting. Would ike the passage reference for Jesus quote

    Well in Jewish tradition a child became a man at 13/14 years of age so there would be nothing untowards if Adam was created around that age.
    I don't see the validity of that assumption.
    Last edited by conon394; May 30, 2022 at 06:45 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  19. #299
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    And as they were thrown out the Garden and busy with survining, Adam and Eve magically discovered sex. But that is only possible, if God created intentionally uterus, vulva and penis. So he must have known, what will happen... So why is Sex still "disgusting and forbidden" then?
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
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    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: On the morality of evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    And as they were thrown out the Garden and busy with survining, Adam and Eve magically discovered sex. But that is only possible, if God created intentionally uterus, vulva and penis. So he must have known, what will happen... So why is Sex still "disgusting and forbidden" then?
    Fair point since as basics tells it everything was made as is... so sex would seem to be a something of the Garden (good thing otherwise seems a bit boring). Also if Adam is made in god's image seems like there is sex in heaven. That also means He was walking about in the garden no need to insert a Jesus. Also if god sorta had a hand to forehead moment about forgetting to make a female for Adam does that mean he had to go back do it for all the other creatures that reproduce sexually? In fact the whole creation of eve starts says God was playing this by ear vs some well managed white board plan. Why not some fire sword wielding angel to guard the tress to begin with?

    --------------

    @Basics

    there is no giving and taking in marriage in heaven meaning sex

    So is marriage a bit more violent in Scotland or what. Mine involved no giving or taking just two adults mutually consenting to the deal and the sex before.
    Last edited by conon394; May 30, 2022 at 06:49 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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