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Thread: [Amendment] Legio 501st Clarifications

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    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default [Amendment] Legio 501st Clarifications

    With the resent spate of award nominations I can think of no better time than to clarify a few things regarding the Legio 501st modder awards. As is, there is no difference between the requirements for the lowest level of the award and the highest level. Anyone who technically qualifies for one technically qualifies for all. I think this is a pretty fundamental issue with the awards and is in desperate need of changing.

    Currently Article 3 of the Constitution reads,

    Quote Originally Posted by Article 3
    - Modding Service Award - To qualify for the Modding Service Award, the nominee must have participated within a workshop section with distinction over the span of 6 months or released a hosted modification.

    - Legio 501st Modder Award (Bronze, Silver, Gold) - Awarded by the Curia for one or more of the following: creating a detailed and original tutorial containing relevant media (screenshots, video, code snippets), releasing a minor mod involving at minimum a single modding section (units, scripting, mapping, animations, sounds, media) of work estimated to have taken more than 5 hours or a remarkable act that benefits TWC modding community.
    I propose the following changes for discussion,

    Quote Originally Posted by Article 3

    - Modding Service Award - To qualify for the Modding Service Award, the nominee must have participated within a workshop section with distinction over the span of 6 months, released a hosted modification or done a remarkable act that benefited the TWC modding community.

    - Legio 501st Modder Award (Gold) - Awarded by the Curia for one or more of the following: creating a detailed and original tutorial containing relevant media (screenshots, video, code snippets), releasing a minor mod involving at minimum a single modding section (units, scripting, mapping, animations, sounds, media) of work estimated to have taken more than 24 hoursor a remarkable act that benefits TWC modding community.

    - Legio 501st Modder Award (Silver) - Awarded by the Curia for one or more of the following: creating a detailed and original tutorial containing relevant media (screenshots, video, code snippets), releasing a minor mod involving at minimum a single modding section (units, scripting, mapping, animations, sounds, media) of work estimated to have taken more than 12 hours or a remarkable act that benefits TWC modding community.

    - Legio 501st Modder Award (Bronze) - Awarded by the Curia for one or more of the following: creating a detailed and original tutorial containing relevant media (screenshots, video, code snippets), releasing a minor mod involving at minimum a single modding section (units, scripting, mapping, animations, sounds, media) of work estimated to have taken more than 6 hoursor a remarkable act that benefits TWC modding community.
    The hours listed are just a jumping off point to get discussion started.

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  2. #2
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Legio 501st Clarifications

    Remember, we have artifex and opifex so you cant go too high with requirements. It would be nice if we were able to keep the "level up" type of recognition as well.


    Unfortunately the wording of the silver and gold levels was never properly finished before it was implemented. So the curia should definitely work thru that.
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Legio 501st Clarifications

    The the time is the least of the issues with the wording.

    When it comes to work done. Bronze is one or two mods or a single model. Very minor.
    Silver is at or slightly below an Artifex.
    Gold is between Artifex and an Opifex.

    The way it reads now, all three is below an Artifex.

    Anyway, 24 hours is easily done with any AI /DB modding. Any scripting work is also very involved and to test for balance is easily 24 hours.


    Anyway, anyway,... the Bronze is such a low bar i would be ok with the Curia defining it clearly and having content award it whenever someone announces or releases a mod. They can report it to the Consul and it can be shared in the monthly report.

  4. #4
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Legio 501st Clarifications

    Question: I want to propose someone who I think might be worth it, I know nothing about modding, how can I estimate how much it took him to make x,y,z. For example let's say you have a submod and tutorials an I want to nominate you, how the hell do I estimate how long that took?
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Legio 501st Clarifications

    @SA: You could ask a modder/artifex for his estimation.

    I'm for this clarification, as it differentiate the 3 levels a little bit by the amount of invested time.
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    Araval's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Legio 501st Clarifications

    As I understood, the point of Legio 501st Modder Award was that when you make one thing that matches the criteria, you get bronze, when you make second thing, you get silver, when you make third thing, you get gold. If anyhing should be clarified then this. (It's the same way as TWC University Degree awards work.)

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Legio 501st Clarifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Question: I want to propose someone who I think might be worth it, I know nothing about modding, how can I estimate how much it took him to make x,y,z. For example let's say you have a submod and tutorials an I want to nominate you, how the hell do I estimate how long that took?
    To be honest, what takes one modder 5 hours to do, may take another 10, or 20 hours to do depending on much trial and error they do. Basically, CAI modding takes longer because yo are looking at effects over several turns, while BAI changes are only across a battle. What takes 30 minutes for BAI may take several hours of play to test changes to the CAI. Another example, if i change the spacing for various units, those changes can take an hour or more to do. You may want different spacing for militia, citizens, and line, not to mention, dragoons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Araval View Post
    As I understood, the point of Legio 501st Modder Award was that when you make one thing that matches the criteria, you get bronze, when you make second thing, you get silver, when you make third thing, you get gold. If anyhing should be clarified then this. (It's the same way as TWC University Degree awards work.)
    I recall this was the original proposal. It was something short of Artifex, the three levels. The fact that each one has the same criteria suggest this may be the case. if so, the description/ criteria should mentioned about previously been awarded the bronze, silver...
    This is why language needs to be precise; intentions and context can be lost quickly.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Legio 501st Clarifications

    To be honest I'd rather see the metric be in terms of impact. Using 'time' in hourage is both specific (literally defined here) but equally unclear (how are you to judge the exact time and how it's spent, the value of that time spent in overall result, the progression of skills and creations regardless of just throwing more time at them...). I think it's fair to say the citizenry is unlikely to have the same idea as far as value or measure of the time and I personally don't think throwing time at something has anything to do with how good it is. It's really how that time is spent and what comes from it (particularly on the last proposal I commented with very little time spent on the functional change, but time spent to test it that can be claimed as any number and its impact clearly goes beyond editing 'just any table'). These awards should be considered relative to the context the modding was done, with an eye towards the progression that was an inherent goal to their original passage. This proposal corrects the sinful state of lazily duplicated descriptions with no distinction at all, but I don't think it goes far enough in being functional for the purpose it's supposed to serve.
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Legio 501st Clarifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Araval View Post
    As I understood, the point of Legio 501st Modder Award was that when you make one thing that matches the criteria, you get bronze, when you make second thing, you get silver, when you make third thing, you get gold. If anyhing should be clarified then this. (It's the same way as TWC University Degree awards work.)
    This is what I thought too, so however long it took, or however wonderful the mod or tutorial was, you'd only get one level (e.g. bronze) for one tutorial or mod that met the requirements. Then you'd need to do another separate thing on another occasion to get silver etc. So yes, more like the University awards, or the staff coloured ones.

    I know that would mean people could theoretically 'game' the system by releasing mods in sections instead of one whole mod... but I'd be very, very, surprised if anyone was interested enough in these to bother changing the way they were going to release anything!

  10. #10
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Legio 501st Clarifications

    I'm opposing this. If I have to ask another modder how long it could take and even then it may or may not have taken the guy that long... Well, once can see how measuring by hours only brings in more confusion and endless discussion instead of clarifying things.
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Legio 501st Clarifications

    Actually I just noticed the addition of "a remarkable act" to the modding service award. I disagree with this on principle since that award was meant to be equal to artifex and harder to obtain. A remarkable act is something less than participating for 6 months in the workshop or releasing a hosted mod.
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Legio 501st Clarifications

    I've not actually seen how this reward was developed, but to me it sounds a bit ambiguous.

    It seems to me that over all this mod is intended to reward modders who have helped other modders, but it also mentions "released a hosted modification" which benefits players, but not necessarily other modders?
    I'd say the definition would be more cohesive if that section was replaced with something like "made unique modding assets available to the community". That can be in the form of a downloadable asset or a released mod from which an asset can be taken (practically and in terms of permissions). I also agree with those who say grades of the medal should be determined by instances, though I'd make that pertain to the unique assets rather than the number of releases. The most objective criterion in my mind would be to count how many unique assets actually got used in another mod. Failing that, someone has to judge the likelihood of that happening.
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    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Legio 501st Clarifications

    So, it seems many of us are in agreement that the "raw hours worked" criteria is a bit of a problem. Does anyone have a reasonable solution to that issue?

    Actually I just noticed the addition of "a remarkable act" to the modding service award.
    It felt more logically cohesive with that award than with the Legio 501st awards where it feels tacked on.

    It's worth noting that "a remarkable act" is not clearly defined and could absolutely be on par with the rest of the criteria.

    As I understood, the point of Legio 501st Modder Award was that when you make one thing that matches the criteria, you get bronze, when you make second thing, you get silver, when you make third thing, you get gold. If anyhing should be clarified then this. (It's the same way as TWC University Degree awards work.)
    This language is not in the version adopted into the constitution. If that was the intent of the initial proposer of the award, they neglected to include that in the text that was officially adopted. Further clarification would likely require a constitutional amendment such as this one.

    While it is somewhat relevant and important to look at the intent behind the adoption of these awards, the facts are that the only actually binding text is that which is in the Constitution.
    Last edited by Akar; September 30, 2021 at 11:35 AM.

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  14. #14
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Legio 501st Clarifications

    Alright well I'm opposed to this in its current form. I don't like the modding service award being made less than artifex. There are instances where people dont want citizenship and that award would be a viable option. With it being just a remarkable act it becomes something less than artifex.
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Legio 501st Clarifications

    It's not just a remarkable act, that's just one of the 3 criteria for it.

    If you don't like it, suggest a solution or compromise.

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    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Legio 501st Clarifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    I've not actually seen how this reward was developed, but to me it sounds a bit ambiguous.

    It seems to me that over all this mod is intended to reward modders who have helped other modders, but it also mentions "released a hosted modification" which benefits players, but not necessarily other modders?
    I'd say the definition would be more cohesive if that section was replaced with something like "made unique modding assets available to the community". That can be in the form of a downloadable asset or a released mod from which an asset can be taken (practically and in terms of permissions). I also agree with those who say grades of the medal should be determined by instances, though I'd make that pertain to the unique assets rather than the number of releases. The most objective criterion in my mind would be to count how many unique assets actually got used in another mod. Failing that, someone has to judge the likelihood of that happening.

    I agree with you but what about tutorials though? That definition kind of leaves them out and teaching others is just as important as making assets, if not more.


    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    So, it seems many of us are in agreement that the "raw hours worked" criteria is a bit of a problem. Does anyone have a reasonable solution to that issue?
    Imho I think it would be best if we attached value to one level and we allowed the other levels value to be derived from that. For example we can make silver the artifex equivalent and then that would make gold more than artifex but less than opifex. Or we could make gold the artifex equivalent.

    This way you don't set any hard terms that might exclude people but you are providing sufficient grounding for everyone to be able to have at least a semi-informed opinion on the matter without having to go around asking other modders while also leaving room for personal interpretation and discussion.

    Everybody in the Curia and Proth already has a rough idea of what the requirements for an Artifex are, even if they're not set in stone. Remarkable act otoh is a very nebulous concept that people don't really have any feel for and it will lead to situations like the Empire AI proposal where I am willing to give it silver for fixing the ing train-wreck CA calls an AI while you wouldn't even give bronze.


    Bottom line the ideal description would be "Awarded to anyone who has contributed to the development of modding on the site by having hosted mod or submods, writing modding tutorials of a good quality or releasing a series of assets to help other modders. This medal is to be considered <greater, equivalent, lesser> to artifex though it does not bestow that title"

    By good quality I mean good enough to be added to the scriptorium or present in the scriptorium.
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; September 30, 2021 at 12:27 PM.
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  17. #17
    Halie Satanus's Avatar Emperor of ice cream
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Legio 501st Clarifications

    So, it seems many of us are in agreement that the "raw hours worked" criteria is a bit of a problem. Does anyone have a reasonable solution to that issue?

    Legio 501st Modder Award - Awarded by the Curia for one or more of the following: Creating a detailed and original tutorial, releasing a minor mod involving at minimum a single modding section (units, scripting, mapping, animations, sounds, media). Providing a significant service as a mod tester or researcher or any other service in mod production which does not equal nomination for an Artifex award


    Just take out the levels and hours criteria. No need to overcomplicate another award. This shouldn't be an alternative to Artifex.

    I'd also suggest.....

    Any member already holding Artifex or Opifex is excluded from the Legio 501st awards.


    Make life a bit easier for everyone.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Legio 501st Clarifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Halie Satanus View Post

    Legio 501st Modder Award - Awarded by the Curia for one or more of the following: Creating a detailed and original tutorial, releasing a minor mod involving at minimum a single modding section (units, scripting, mapping, animations, sounds, media). Providing a significant service as a mod tester or researcher or any other service in mod production which does not equal nomination for an Artifex award


    Just take out the levels and hours criteria. No need to overcomplicate another award. This shouldn't be an alternative to Artifex.

    I'd also suggest.....

    Any member already holding Artifex or Opifex is excluded from the Legio 501st awards.


    Make life a bit easier for everyone.
    You definitely had your tea today, otherwise I can't figure why you're so reasonable

    Joking aside. I wasn't around when that was created, but I had the impression more like Araval has: 1 thing done, bronze; 2 things done, silver; three things done: gold.

    I would not set gold on par with artifex. I would consider those three grades as a road to artifex. Small milestones on the way to glory. Then you have the other stand alone 501 award, that one could be the stepping stone between artifex and Opifex. In conclusion, I'm with you on excluding rank holders of the lower medals.

    However, since this is all WIP and reading the thread, I guess there are a lot of different ideas floating around, what this award and the grades are supposed to mean.
    Last edited by Aikanár; September 30, 2021 at 01:45 PM. Reason: spelling


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  19. #19
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Legio 501st Clarifications

    Back when Lifth first created artwork for the award the idea was to make them look like an unfinished Opifex, with each level progressively adding more of a finish before it was eventually replaced by Opifex.


    We ended up voting at the time for these alternative artwork set pieces ;though I always enjoyed both, Lifths artwork was the most aesthetically and conceptually pleasing to me.
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    Araval's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Legio 501st Clarifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Halie Satanus View Post
    I'd also suggest.....

    Any member already holding Artifex or Opifex is excluded from the Legio 501st awards.


    Make life a bit easier for everyone.
    It doesn't make sense. It makes it seem Artifex or Opifex making something has less worth than an unawarded member making something. They are not connected level awards. Legio awards are just small awards for modders.
    What I think would make sense, is award them to active members. How to measure activity of a modder in the context? -A modder does something that matches the criteria. But from which point of time should activity be measured? -From the same point that curia was supposed to start handing out these awards.

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