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Thread: Basic Italian - Chat Thread

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Basic Italian - Chat Thread

    I'll try to get catch up on my homework and send it to you in the next day or two Flinn.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Basic Italian - Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ELITEOFKINGWARMAN88 View Post
    I'll try to get catch up on my homework and send it to you in the next day or two Flinn.
    Got them, thank you!
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  3. #23

    Default Re: Basic Italian - Chat Thread

    I am delivering soon as well. Not losing interest in the least; have just been a bit careless with my time.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Basic Italian - Chat Thread

    No worries
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  5. #25

    Default Re: Basic Italian - Chat Thread

    Thanks for your superhuman patience and the special lesson!

    I find the fact that Italian combines a mandatory definite article with possessive pronouns quite remarkable. I cannot think of any other language that does so, as articles and possessive pronouns are usually understood to be determiners and occupying the same slot syntactically. Can anyone else think of an example?

    In Spanish there are those indirect poetic expressions where the article comes before the noun but possessive suffix after, but that is not the same.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Basic Italian - Chat Thread

    Can anyone else think of an example?
    Klingon

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  7. #27

    Default Re: Basic Italian - Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Klingon
    Doesn't seem that way. Can you show me how Klingon requires a definite marker with possessives?

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Basic Italian - Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    Thanks for your superhuman patience and the special lesson!
    No problem, as I said we are here to enjoy not to stress ourselves out

    I find the fact that Italian combines a mandatory definite article with possessive pronouns quite remarkable. I cannot think of any other language that does so, as articles and possessive pronouns are usually understood to be determiners and occupying the same slot syntactically. Can anyone else think of an example?
    I reject any responsibility for that monstrosity, but I have to say that once you get used to that, it seems very logical to do so
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  9. #29
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    Default Re: Basic Italian - Chat Thread

    I reject any responsibility for that monstrosity, but I have to say that once you get used to that, it seems very logical to do so
    I think everyone has said that at some point about their native language

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  10. #30
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    Default Re: Basic Italian - Chat Thread

    Yes that's very possible
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  11. #31
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    Default Re: Basic Italian - Chat Thread

    So I've posted lesson 6, including some exercises.

    I don't plan to post any new lesson in December, this is holidays period for most of us, also I'd want you to take your time to go back at what we did so far as well as allowing those who fell behind enough time to get back on track.
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  12. #32

    Default Re: Basic Italian - Chat Thread

    Heya Flinn! I know we aren't at this topic yet, but in my own study (trying to fill gaps, catch up on some ideas, etc.), I came across something which is weird to me, and which I wanted you to clarify.

    Possessive pronouns seem weird to me, as their declension seems to relate to the object being possessed, and not to the possessor. Is that correct? Like, if I say something like "The cat is his", the Italian form of that has no direct way to show that it is "his", rather than "hers", right? To make it more clear (and so that you can correct me if I'm wrong), "The cat is his" would be "Il gatto è il suo", right? But then "The cat is hers" would also be "Il gatto è il suo", right? Assuming I've not made some huge mistake and that the preceding translations are correct, is there any way to directly differentiate between "his" and "hers" in the way we do in English? Or does one just have to add some extra stuff to make that point clear?
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  13. #33
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    Default Re: Basic Italian - Chat Thread

    Assuming I've not made some huge mistake and that the preceding translations are correct, is there any way to directly differentiate between "his" and "hers" in the way we do in English?
    Not really, since as you properly noticed "suo" is used for both lui and lei. In case of doubts, people uses the proper nouns, i.e.:

    - Il gatto è di Marco (his)
    - Il gatto è di Maria (hers)

    We go for the straight form "suo" only when there's no possible confusion, like when you are distinguishing between mio (mine) and suo (his/hers), example

    The cat is mine = il gatto è mio, as opposed to The cat is hers = il gatto è suo.

    Hope that that makes sense
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  14. #34

    Default Re: Basic Italian - Chat Thread

    That does indeed make sense. Thanks for that!

    As a further clarification, is the article before the possessive pronoun necessary? E.g., in translating the "The cat is his/hers" above, I wrote:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilo11
    Il gatto è il suo.
    However, you omitted the trailing "il", writing:
    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn
    Il gatto è suo.
    In the language app I've been using to practice, it would mark the missing second "il" as a mistake, so I wonder, is that necessary grammatically? Like, is the app telling me the "correct" way (which may not be the way people necessarily actually talk), or is it just being pedantic about articles when that is not necessary?
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  15. #35
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    Default Re: Basic Italian - Chat Thread

    Ah good point, well both forms are correct actually.

    I would preferably do not repeat the article IL gatto è IL suo, and go with IL gatto è suo, but really I can't think of one of the two to be more correct that the other one. If one really wants to distinguish, I'd say that the form I used is a bit more colloquial than the other one, though let me stress again the point that both are correct and currently used.
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  16. #36

    Default Re: Basic Italian - Chat Thread

    Good to know. I will continue following the dictates of my app when I use it (otherwise they penalize me ), but I'll remember your words here. I figured it was something like that though, that (maybe) it's technically a smidge more correct to use it, but that both are fine, and that people don't actually utilize the doubled article like that.
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  17. #37
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    Default Re: Basic Italian - Chat Thread

    So, I've just posted Lesson number 7

    Also, I think we are at a good point. So far we have only ventured into A1-A2 levels, but possibly I could have one lesson of B1 level (about Comparatives & Superlatives); while not strictly necessary, it will help you in the process of learning Italian, as basic as it could be. Are you guys ok with that?

    After that, we could move to verbs (another 3-4 lessons) and then we should be good
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  18. #38

    Default Re: Basic Italian - Chat Thread

    So, for me, I am okay with more involved content, provided that sentences are given translations with them. This is because part of me parsing out new forms and whatnot involves me also being able to see what words go with what, and then being able to identify how changing grammar changes their structure. I know that one could say "Just use GoogleTranslate", but flipping back and forth and not having it all together makes that a pain. So yeah. I would be down for more difficult stuff, but I'd want to have it alongside translations of the sentences you are showing us. That's my two cents.
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  19. #39
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    Default Re: Basic Italian - Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilo11 View Post
    So, for me, I am okay with more involved content, provided that sentences are given translations with them. This is because part of me parsing out new forms and whatnot involves me also being able to see what words go with what, and then being able to identify how changing grammar changes their structure. I know that one could say "Just use GoogleTranslate", but flipping back and forth and not having it all together makes that a pain. So yeah. I would be down for more difficult stuff, but I'd want to have it alongside translations of the sentences you are showing us. That's my two cents.
    ok noted, will that be enough for the exercises, or you want that for the full lesson? (the latter will take quite a lot more time, but if it's really necessary, I'll deal with that, no worries)

    anyways, I'll be looking forward for the feedback of the other students as well
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  20. #40

    Default Re: Basic Italian - Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    ok noted, will that be enough for the exercises, or you want that for the full lesson? (the latter will take quite a lot more time, but if it's really necessary, I'll deal with that, no worries)

    anyways, I'll be looking forward for the feedback of the other students as well
    Well, for me I'd say it's a must for the exercises for sure, but if you could put it in the lesson as well, it definitely makes the lesson much more valuable to the student. Cause right now I basically read the lessons primarily to see the underlying patterns of endings and structures, but I am getting almost no vocabulary out of them, which is arguably a bad thing. By putting translations of the sentences in the lesson there too, then I could sort of get vocabulary just by osmosis, almost in the way that one naturally learns a language as a child. Again, it's not necessary, but I think it takes a lot of the "brute force" out of the learning, and makes it more natural and organic.
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