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Thread: Political instability in Tunisia.

  1. #21

    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Tunisia denies establishing any foreign bases - Anadolu Agency june/2020

    This is not the story of Afghanistan during the last twenty years.There is a long story failed foreign occupations in this country (British, Soviet, America).


    It makes no sense to compare independent countries that have military agreements with the United States,(eg.Tunisia), or that accept American military bases on their territories, with Afghanistan, which was invaded and occupied militarily by the invading power for 20 years, and at the end of that time had to withdraw because of war exhaustion.
    The fact the reality on the ground doesn’t square with your sophistry means the latter is the problem, not the former. You consider independent countries that have military agreements with the United States,(eg.Tunisia) legitimate, but considered independent countries that had military agreements with the United States,(eg.Afghanistan) illegitimate, to fit wherever your narrative is at from one moment to the next. It doesn’t matter that the Tunisian defense minister denied the presence of foreign troops in his country. They’ve been there helping him since at least 2014, as cited, and have operated a base in Tunisia used by US forces in WW2 and today. The two countries just signed a ten year agreement to formalize and expand on those initiatives.
    ------
    There is already another thread about Afghanistan. The reason for opening this topic was to demonstrate that democracy is possible in an moderate Islamic country
    You “opened this topic” in the Afghan thread and it got moved. Tunisia faces the same types of problems Afghanistan faced (corruption, tribalism, terrorism, poverty), and is being militarily and economically supported by the US in similar ways, as cited. The point of highlighting this comparison is to expose the depth to which your sophistry undermines your anti-American propaganda. Afghan democracy was “moderately Islamic” in any way the Tunisian one is, and there are US troops operating alongside Tunisian forces to combat an ally of the Taliban, just as they fought alongside the ASF in Afghanistan against the Taliban and its ally, in both cases since 2014.

    Tunisia's Ghannouchi says parliament in session, defying Saied
    Rached Ghannouchi from the Ennahdha party urged lawmakers to resume work in defiance of the parliament freeze by President Kais Saied.

    ----
    America in Tunisia and Russia in Libya: we know that the entire world is the playground of the great powers, but this is not a good excuse to support a new dictator,

    Joe Biden Needs to Get Off the Fence About Tunisia - The Washington Post.
    Your own source details crucial US support sustaining Tunisian democracy. Arguing the US should also intervene against Saied's power grab just proves your anti-American propaganda has no real premises. This is merely the latest instance where you’ve criticized the US for not leveraging its support to exert more control over an allied democratic government, contradicting your own complaints about alleged “imperialist” behavior. You can’t have it both ways.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    Does he really? I essentially fairly disinterested. I much rather see him have Joe Manchin wake up with a his pets head in his bed. Between the debt ceiling, the budget, democrats who are looking like moderate republicans, and COVID. I'm actually kinda happy Ludicus that Biden is not getting sucked into another Arab state's political issues.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    Its not like Typhoid Joe is in capacity to influence anything there anyway. I mean America just got teabagged by Taliban. I highly doubt Americans will think of another foreign adventure anytime soon, although if things get bad domestically I wouldn't put it past CIA or some other alphabet soup agency to stage a false flag to justify a foreign conflict as a distraction.

  4. #24
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    Its not like Typhoid Joe is in capacity to influence anything there anyway. I mean America just got teabagged by Taliban.
    Wow the cognitive dissonance in your post is astonishing. You are going to both insult the President who actually pulled the on the endless war in A-stan , not reward him for not plunging into Tunisia and than assert there will be a war of distraction. You know I can close my eyes and imagine a lot stuff as well after that typing them does not make it true.

    "Typhoid Joe"

    Err I have no f...ing Ideal what you talking about with that one.
    Last edited by conon394; October 03, 2021 at 10:36 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    I like when people pretend that Biden wasn't in the government for the past 50 years, including his approval of Afghanistan's invasion as well as every other act of foreign aggression since Reagan years. I think Americans call him Typhoid Joe, because of the way Democrats are tied to Chinese government, that was behind the pandemic.

  6. #26
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    I like when people pretend that Biden wasn't in the government for the past 50 years
    True.This is Joe Biden's checkered Iraq history - Vox

    Nobody is perfect.Well, I defend Biden's domestic policies. If I may voice my opinion, there is some lack of malleability in American domestic politics. I think this is due to the rigid bipartisanship that goes back 200 years.Political compromise is difficult in American democracy.Everything quickly turns into " I hate you and vice versa". The US Capitol riot is an example.
    A multi-party system mitigates this rigidity.In this old continent, the big parties are rarely in the majority, and have to compromise in order to govern.In Germany, right now, the kingmakers are two relatively small parties.The extreme left -Die Link- not even guaranteed to get the minimum 5% of the vote required to get into the Bundestag, and yet,in the theoretical field of possibilities,they have a small window of opportunity to enter the new government, which nobody knows what it will be.

    ---
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    You consider independent countries that have military agreements with the United States,(eg.Tunisia) legitimate, but considered independent countries that had military agreements with the United States,(eg.Afghanistan) illegitimate,
    Vichy France was not independent. Afghanistan was not independent,it was an occupied country.
    Once again, there is no similarity between the current political events in Tunisia, and what happened in Afghanistan, under American military occupation for 20 years. Furthermore,democracy has spontaneously prevailed in post-Arab Spring Tunisia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    This is merely the latest instance where you’ve criticized the US for not leveraging its support to exert more control over an allied democratic government,
    US does not control Tunisia. Diplomatic pressure is perfectly legitimate.Once again, Tunisia denies establishing any foreign bases
    We do not allow any foreign forces in our country. Tunisia refuses to use its lands to conduct military operations or to establish foreign military units or bases," the defense minister said.He went on to say: "Tunisia was and still controls its lands, maritime and airspace, and we do not allow any foreign force to be present in our country
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Your own source details crucial US support sustaining Tunisian democracy.
    The Washington Post criticizes Biden's ambiguous position,that's the message.
    As president, Biden has understated moderately than underscored the significance of Tunisian democracy. When Saied — Essebsi’s successor — made his power-grab in July, the U.S. responded cautiously. Biden himself didn’t remark concerning the menace to the one nation to emerge from the 2011 Arab Spring uprisings with a free polity, and Secretary of State Antony Blinken was circumspect in his expression of concern. The State Division issued an anodyne assertion, saying “Tunisia’s political and financial troubles must be based mostly on the Tunisian structure and the ideas of democracy, human rights, and freedom"
    ----
    Right now, in Tunisia, the president is not playing the democratic game. But there appears to be slowly mounting international pressure on the president: Blinken asked for adherance to the principles of democracy and human rights; Linda Thomas Greenfield, US’s ambassador to the UN stressed the full compliance with Tunisia’s constitution and democratic principles; the EU has called for the resumption of parliamentary activity. Tunisia: EU's Borrell calls for quick return to stability
    Last edited by Ludicus; October 04, 2021 at 02:57 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  7. #27

    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Afghanistan was not independent,it was an occupied country.
    Once again, there is no similarity between the current political events in Tunisia, and what happened in Afghanistan, under American military occupation for 20 years.
    These lies have been debunked repeatedly.
    US does not control Tunisia. Diplomatic pressure is perfectly legitimate.Once again, Tunisia denies establishing any foreign bases
    The US didn’t control the Afghan government either. It tried to exert diplomatic pressure to get Ghani to agree to the dissolution and replacement of the Afghan government, and failed. That hasn’t stopped you from lying about it while simultaneously complaining about the lack of control the US had over the Afghan government, while also praising the US backed Tunisian democracy for the very reasons you called the Afghan one an illegitimate puppet. You’ve merely exposed your anti-American narrative as an incoherent mess in the process. It doesn’t matter what the Tunisian government officially denied. I’ve provided all necessary evidence to prove the US has had troops there for years and is operating from Bizerte-Sidi Ahmed Air Base, all in support of the Tunisian government in its fight against a Taliban ally.
    Right now, in Tunisia, the president is not playing the democratic game. But there appears to be slowly mounting international pressure on the president: Blinken asked for adherance to the principles of democracy and human rights; Linda Thomas Greenfield, US’s ambassador to the UN stressed the full compliance with Tunisia’s constitution and democratic principles; the EU has called for the resumption of parliamentary activity. Tunisia: EU's Borrell calls for quick return to stability
    Case in point, you’re lamenting the lack of US pressure on the Tunisian government, accusing Biden of “supporting a dictator,” even though the kind of pressure you demand would make the US an imperial overlord of Tunisia according to the criteria you’ve established to classify the former Afghan democracy as an illegitimate puppet. As usual, no matter what the US does or does not, it is either too strong or too weak, a common doublethink employed by auth left shills lamenting American policy (indeed, her very existence).
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; October 04, 2021 at 03:16 PM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  8. #28

    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    True.This is Joe Biden's checkered Iraq history - Vox

    Nobody is perfect.Well, I defend Biden's domestic policies.
    You mean the ones where he passed "tough on crime bills" that specifically targeted minorities for victimless crimes?
    Biden is an senile racist globalist, on top of being corrupt and having history of disturbing behavior around women and children. The fact that "democratic socialists" put the very embodiment of what they claim they oppose on a pedestal kinda shows that they have absolutely 0 integrity and they stand for nothing, but power and greed.

  9. #29
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    These lies have been debunked repeatedly..The US didn’t control the Afghan government either.
    In a parallel universe, we all know that the US has been invited by the "democratic forces" of Afghanistan to invade that country. Or, who knows, the "democratic" (puppet) GAO was born by spontaneous generation, under the American tutelage, certainly not by the strength of democratic votes in a country that is still very far from being a democracy.

    you’re lamenting the lack of US pressure on the Tunisian government, accusing Biden of “supporting a dictator,”
    Accusing Biden's ambiguous stance, as already stated by the W. Post.

    lamenting American policy(indeed, her very existence)
    America's existence, really? that's a strong accusation.I'm beginning to think that if I write another post or two I deserve to end up in Guantanamo.The thing is that some hyper-nationalist American fanatics can't stand any criticism of the foreign policies of the United States. This is your case.

    "O wad some Power the giftie gie us To see oursel's as ithers see us!" "Oh, would some Power give us the gift, to see ourselves as others see us!” Robert Burns, 1786
    ---
    In Spain, forced disappearance of more than 100,000 people under Franco were only surpassed by the Pol Pot regime in Cambodia Will Spain's 'disappeared' find justice?

    An American official said some years ago that in authoritarian regimes "people could do as they pleased". In other words, authoritarian, fascist regimes are an excellent vaccine against communism, and are therefore tolerated by America.
    This was the case with the Franco regime in Spain, the The Last Military Dictatorship in Argentina (1976-1983) and Pinochet in Argentina and Pinochet U- supported coup in Chile. Declassified documents show Australia assisted CIA in coup
    The Pinochet File - The National Security Archive

    White House Audio Tape, President Richard M. Nixon and White House press secretary Ron Zeigler, March 23, 1972
    This audio clip is available in several formats:
    Windows Media Audio - Broadband (1.1 MB - Streaming)
    Windows Media Audio - Dial-up/56kb (298 KB - Streaming)
    MP3 - (569 KB - Does not stream)
    (For those interested)
    --
    In Europe, the US turned a blind eye to the crimes of the Spanish dictatorship and Portugal was invited to join NATO despite its authoritarian rule under the dictatorship of Salazar. A seminal article explains the Negotiations Between Salazar and John Kennedy.

    Membership in this new “club” would christen the Estado Novo with a sense of legitimacy, both abroad and at home... NATO membership would give Portugal a “new face…that of a timeless defender of Western values and practices.” However, many found it curious that Portugal had been invited to join NATO, yet not the UN. As a journalist would exclaim in Africa Today nearly twenty years later, “United States sponsored Portugal's membership in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization despite the fact that the Portuguese military dictatorship contradicts NATO's principles”
    However, a group of policy intellectuals within the Kennedy administration began to generate a discourse that argued that the assumptions of Kennedy’s Angola policy were flawed. Mainly originating from the Department of Defense, these policy intellectuals saw Kennedy’s Angolan policy as problematic
    in 1962 the Kennedy administration changed its tune and began to turn a blind eye to Portuguese colonial policies in Angola. In 1962, Kennedy instead ordered Ambassador Stevenson to abstain on two resolutions on Portuguese decolonization
    ... the Department of Defense was concerned that if Portugal was to retaliate by withdrawing from NATO or demanding American evacuation of the Azores base, this would “result in an unacceptable reduction of U.S. capabilities to support required military missions to Berlin, Western Europe, and the Middle East and Africa.”
    Why do I mention these tragic events above described in Spain, Chile and Argentina? as in the case of Tunisia, although in a more infinitely benign way, its always true the same pattern- an authoritarian drift of power only happens when it is recognized as such by the United States.

    This could be the end of Tunisia's ancient Jewish community -Haaretz

    Tunisia’s passage from as pringtime of democracy into a winter of autocracy is tragic.
    For Tunisia’s ancient Jewish community, however, it is a tragedy with potentially existential consequences.
    Even the Islamist Ennahdha, which has participated in several governments since Ben Ali’s 2011 ouster, sought to reassure Djerba’s Jews that they belonged to the nation’s cultural mosaic. The party’s vice-president, Abdelfattah Mourou, affirmed that Tunisia "will protect its Jewish population. A monolithic culture always leads to radicalism, while a multicultural society allows us to accept one another."
    But the position of Kais Saied, an arch-conservative Muslim, seems more ambivalent to some critics. Perhaps "ambivalent" is too ambivalent a description.

    During an exchange in January caught on video between Saied and a few interlocutors, the president, his voice muffled by a mask and street noise, seems to have attributed public disorder to "Jewish thieves."
    At least, this was the understanding of The Jerusalem Post, which published an article whose title turned a questionable translation into an indisputable fact: "Tunisian President sorry for antisemitic remarks, rabbi says."

    What are we to think? On the one hand, Kais Saied is a friend of neither Zionism nor Israel. Indeed, he is quite the opposite, a point he made clear during a 2019 presidential debate, declaring that the normalization of ties with Israel was tantamount to "high treason."
    Saied reiterated his rejection of normalization in the wake of the accords with two Gulf states and Morocco, with his foreign ministry insisting it was a stance based on immutable principle. (Tunisia is not interested in establishing diplomatic relations with Israel and its position will not be affected by any international changes)
    The lamentable claim of "treason" leads to equally unfortunate consequences: Saied will not allow tourists carrying Israeli passports to attend the annual pilgrimage to Djerba’s ancient La Ghriba synagogue.
    Jews and Muslims celebrate unusual coexistence in Djerba.


    --
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    You mean the ones where he passed "tough on crime bills" that specifically targeted minorities for victimless crimes? (1)
    No, I mean, for example, that Biden is right when he says US democracy is in danger, in a country where 17 states have passed restricted vote access and make it difficult for minority communities to access ballot boxes.
    -----
    (1) Joe Biden's controversial 1994 crime law, explained - Vox

    The truth, it turns out, is somewhere in the middle
    -------
    Edit,
    The "evil" left in Tunisia, and How a Leftist Labor Union Helped Force Tunisia's Political Settlement

    Houcine Abassi - Wikipedia
    He was the Secretary General of the Tunisian General Labour Union (UGTT) since 2011.[1] UGTT was part of the Tunisian National Dialogue Quartet, which was awarded the 2015 Nobel Peace Prize "for its decisive contribution to the building of a pluralistic democracy in Tunisia in the wake of the Tunisian Revolution of 2011
    ---
    Still on this subject. Nobel Peace Prize laureate Yemeni Tawakkol Karman wrote in a facebook post,
    The West does not want democratic regimes or civilian states in the Middle East. Because of that it has conspired and blessed conspiracies against our Arab Spring and against our peaceful revolutions. Observe the ill-timing: at the time that Afghanistan was handed over to Taliban, there was a coup against democracy in Tunisia so as to exclude Ennahda.
    Karman belongs to the list of Facebook's first 20 oversight board members. Yemeni Nobel peace laureate targeted for Facebook nod
    A Nobel Peace Prize laureate claims she has been subjected to a sweeping online campaign in Saudi Arabia and allied media because of her nomination to Facebook's independent oversight board.
    Yes, there was a coup against democracy in Tunisia,but Afghanistan was inevitably handed over to Taliban.It’s just a temporal coincidence, my dear Karman.
    -------
    A couple of years ago, she also defended the Muslim Brotherhood, describing the group as "one of the victims of official tyranny and terrorism in the region, to which Trump gives his supports and assistance"
    Its a conundrum. Many of you probably don’t know that under the U.S law,the designation of terrorist group can be applied only to organizations that direct violence against American interests.The New York Times rightly adds,
    the Brotherhood’s atomization is only one obstacle to its designation as terrorist group
    Trump Considers Them Terrorists, but Some Are Allies
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    In Kuwait, the Muslim Brotherhood is vocally pro-American.
    In Iraq, the Brotherhood’s political party has steadfastly supported the American-backed political process and still forms part of the governing coalition.
    And in Yemen, the Brotherhood-linked party is cooperating with some of America’s closest Arab allies in a war against a faction backed by Iran.
    President Trump’s proposal to designate the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist organization raises the difficult question of just whom he intends to target. The original Islamist organization, founded in Egypt in 1928, has spun off or inspired thousands of independent social or political groups around the world, and they are far from monolithic...
    They include mainstream associations and advocacy groups in Europe and North America, as well as recognized political parties in United States allies from Morocco to Indonesia. Although most of the Brotherhood-linked parties are sharply critical of United States foreign policy, at least a few — like those in Kuwait, Iraq and Yemen — have sometimes also supported American goals.

    The push to penalize the Brotherhood has come from one set of American allies: Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, who see the Brotherhood and its calls for elections as a threat to their stability.
    But the same step risks alienating another set of partners, including Turkey, Qatar and Jordan, which have either aligned themselves with the Brotherhood or integrated Brotherhood spinoffs into their political systems.
    Leaving aside the question of whether the Brotherhood or these spinoffs meet the legal criteria for designation as terrorists, experts say, the proposal risks drawing the United States into a feud that Washington has no stake in.
    “It is the new cold war in the region, and there is not a good side and a bad side from the U.S. perspective,” said Kristian Coates Ulrichsen, a scholar at the Baker Institute for Public Policy at Rice University. “All these countries are close American partners, and letting ourselves get forced to take sides will just harm U.S. interests.”

    Designating the Muslim Brotherhood as a foreign terrorist organization would block its members from entering the United States and bar anyone in the country from supporting or even consulting with them.
    But the far-flung international movement can hardly be described as a single organization.
    Today the only connection among the Brotherhood’s many offshoots may lie in a sleepy two-story office above a defunct takeout pizza restaurant in a suburb northwest of London. Because of a ferocious government crackdown against the Muslim Brotherhood at home in Egypt, this is now the headquarters of the Egyptian Brotherhood’s acting leader, Ibrahim Munir, a frail 82-year-old lawyer.

    In truth, Mr. Munir said, he has no authority over or much contact with the many independent Brotherhood-linked organizations around the world.
    “We try to coordinate,” he said, “but it is not a management structure.”
    Moreover, he argued, the Brotherhood is not an organization as much as an idea — unconstrained by borders, subject to widely varying applications and almost impossible to expunge.
    “Trump thinks he is treating the Muslim Brotherhood like that wall he wants to build with Mexico, but you can’t build up a wall against an idea,” he said.
    The vagueness of that idea — essentially that a bottom-up Islamic religious revival will unlock social progress — has opened it to many interpretations followed by disparate groups.

    But the Brotherhood’s atomization is only one obstacle to its designation as terrorist group.
    Under United States law, the designation can be applied only to organizations that direct violence against American interests, and there is no publicly available evidence that the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood has done that.
    A few Brotherhood spinoffs may qualify — notably Hamas, the Palestinian militant group. But the United States has already sanctioned them.
    Career staff working for the Pentagon, State Department and the National Security Council have argued against Mr. Trump’s proposal in part for those legal reasons.
    It would also be the first time the United States has applied the terrorist label to a popular mass movement, one with millions of followers across the Muslim world, not a small and secretive organization on the model of Al Qaeda.
    Among American allies, the ruling party in Turkey is an ideological cousin; in Jordan, King Abdullah has long relied on a Brotherhood-linked party to provide an outlet for limited and nonviolent political opposition; and Qatar has sought to expand its influence by aligning with the Brotherhood-style Islamists.
    The American-allied governments of Bahrain, Morocco, Tunisia, Indonesia, Malaysia and Kenya also all recognize political parties rooted in the ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood

    Those parties and governments have so far stayed quiet about Mr. Trump’s proposal, possibly for fear of picking a fight with the White House while the chances of any action remain uncertain. Still, the tension is clear.
    In Turkey, Yasin Aktay, a politician close to President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, argued in a recent newspaper column that the proposed sanction against the Brotherhood would “deliver a new blow to the U.S.’s own credibility” and “carries the risk of being perceived as a total declaration of war against not only this organization but Islam.”
    In Jordan, where a political party that grew out of the movement holds 16 seats in Parliament, King Abdullah has resisted demands from Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates to outlaw the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist organization.
    The Americans’ doing so “will put Jordan in a direct confrontation with the U.S.,” said Amer Sabaileh, a political analyst and columnist in Amman.
    In Kuwait, the Brotherhood party’s positive attitude toward Washington dates to the role that the United States played in rolling back an invasion by Iraq nearly three decades ago.

    In Iraq, the Sunni-dominated Brotherhood party has formed cross-sectarian partnerships with Shiite-dominated parties in successive coalition governments, even at the price of losing some Sunni political support.
    In Yemen, the party associated with the Brotherhood has formed a strange-bedfellows alliance with Saudi Arabia and the U.A.E. to battle a common enemy, the Iranian-backed Houthis.
    And in Bahrain, the home of a major American naval base, the Brotherhood-linked party is a pillar of support for the Sunni monarchy, which has struggled against opposition from the country’s Shiite majority.
    Hamas, the Palestinian offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, has been designated a terrorist organization for more than two decades, and its supporters argued this week that their organization could benefit if Mr. Trump sanctioned the larger Brotherhood movement. It would diminish the cost to Brotherhood supporters of backing their Palestinian cousins.
    Several experts in Washington noted that, aside from Hamas, Brotherhood-inspired parties had engaged in the kind of nonviolent parliamentary politics that American officials usually encourage. Calling the Brotherhood a terrorist organization could thus send a troubling message to young people in a region with few viable paths to improve their lives, argued Michele Dunne, a scholar at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

    “I can’t think of anything more counterproductive if what we want to do is encourage young people to take peaceful routes instead of violence,” she said.
    Over its 90-year history, the organization has frequently come under pressure from the Egyptian police state.
    Mr. Munir joined the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt at 14 and spent 16 years in prison for it during a crackdown by President Gamal Abdel Nasser.
    Now the Egyptian Brotherhood has all but receded from active political opposition, retreating in the face of an equally sweeping crackdown by President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi. After carrying out a military takeover in 2013 that removed an elected president who had come from the Muslim Brotherhood, Mr. el-Sisi has overseen the killing of thousands and the imprisonment of tens of thousands of the former president’s Brotherhood supporters.
    The group’s primary function now, Mr. Munir said, was to provide support for the families of those killed or jailed.
    Only seven years ago, he said, a senior Brotherhood official spent 40 minutes in the Oval Office with President Barack Obama talking about a democratic future for Egypt.
    The official, Essam Haddad, was the national security adviser to the Egyptian leader Mohammed Morsi, another Brotherhood leader and Egypt’s first democratically elected president.

    Mr. Haddad has now been in prison for nearly six years on politicized charges.
    Mr. Munir said he was stunned by the silence of the American officials who had known Mr. Haddad during Mr. Morsi’s year in office.
    “It is a shock, really,” Mr. Munir said. “When Essam Haddad went to the administration for a dialogue, was it just a game?”
    Last edited by Ludicus; October 08, 2021 at 04:32 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  10. #30

    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus
    In a parallel universe, we all know that the US has been invited by the "democratic forces" of Afghanistan to invade that country. Or, who knows, the "democratic" (puppet) GAO was born by spontaneous generation, under the American tutelage, certainly not by the strength of democratic votes in a country that is still very far from being a democracy.
    The Taliban rejected US demands to turn over bin Laden and credibly dispel al Qaeda from Afghanistan, necessitating America’s ongoing counterterrorism initiatives there. The end of the US’ combat role in 2014 marked the transfer of the bulk of security operations in the country to the allied Afghan government, until Trump/Biden ended the project. The Afghan government was as legitimately democratic as the Tunisian one is, and both governments were/are backed by the US from inception.

    The point of highlighting these parallels is that the US continues to support its allies in the war on terror, in Tunisia as it had in Afghanistan. Predictably, the anti-US narrative is done in by its own contradictions, criticizing the US for a lack of the kind of assertiveness in Tunisia that was considered “imperialist” 5 minutes ago in Afghanistan. As in the latter case, US support for Tunisia remains key to the allied government’s future.
    Accusing Biden's ambiguous stance, as already stated by the W. Post.
    Case in point - demanding the US more strongly exert corrective “diplomatic” pressure on the Tunisian government amid accusations of imperialism.
    America's existence, really? that's a strong accusation.I'm beginning to think that if I write another post or two I deserve to end up in Guantanamo.The thing is that some hyper-nationalist American fanatics can't stand any criticism of the foreign policies of the United States. This is your case.
    As I recall, you’ve dismissed my criticism of US foreign policy as “libertarian warmongering.” I can’t be a shill for the US and an unfair critic at the same time. Which is it? Accordingly, hatred for the US within the auth left necessitates that the US is virtually omnipotent, so as to cause all the bad things in the world. Yet the US is also weak and corrupt whenever the narrative needs it to be, so that any foreign policy initiative is at least due to some failed scheme or another. This is your case, blaming the US’ all-seeing imperialist machinations for the world’s problems, and yet blaming US weakness and ambivalence for Tunisia’s democratic crisis. Tunisia’s government is aligned with the US in the global fight against Islamic terrorism, just as the Afghan one was. Your “criticism of American foreign policy” is merely a regurgitation of talking points from US adversaries, and just as fallacious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus
    Why do I mention these tragic events above described in Spain, Chile and Argentina? as in the case of Tunisia, although in a more infinitely benign way, its always true the same pattern- an authoritarian drift of power only happens when it is recognized as such by the United States.
    Naturally, your links don’t make that allegation because it’s wrong and dumb. The governments you mentioned for no reason were obviously recognized to be authoritarian, so I’m not sure where the latest tangential accusation of hypocrisy is supposed to lead here, nor why you bothered referencing them just to parallel US support for Tunisia to the fight against world communism during the Cold War. >Cue irrelevant reference to Israel.

    The US maintained an arms embargo and economic sanctions against Pinochet. The US’ role there is at once alleged to be imperialist/predatory and yet weak/hypocritical according to your narrative. Likewise, the US is allegedly weak and hypocritical for supporting relations with autocratic governments for the sake of real politik, and yet also imperialist and overbearing for supporting democratic ones for the same reasons.

    Your sophistry is designed to be unfalsifiable that way, and it doesn’t even matter, because the US has supported the Tunisian government since the Revolution, supporting and praising the latter as a model development for the region. Your theory wouldn’t apply even if it weren’t nonsense. That you would go to such lengths as to allege the Tunisian government was “legitimately” democratic until it gained the support of the US based on a false comparison to the Cold War demonstrates how far removed your narrative is from any basis in fact.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; October 08, 2021 at 05:58 PM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  11. #31
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    (Just a few hours ago -Biden deserves praise for...becomes first president to commemorate Indigenous Peoples Day)
    ----
    ----
    Like it or not,as I said before, an authoritarian drift of power only happens when it is recognized as such by the United States. The US supported authoritarian regimes in South America and turned a blind eye to the crimes of the Spanish dictatorship, the second country after Cambodia with the largest number of missing people.
    Chile: there is extensive documentation that shows.Documenting US Role in Democracy's Fall and Dictator's Rise in Chile - New York Times
    Brilliantly summarized,full article
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    SANTIAGO, Chile — An old rotary phone rings insistently.
    Visitors at a new exhibition at the Museum of Memory and Human Rights here in Santiago who pick up the receiver hear two men complain bitterly about the liberal news media “bleating” over the military coup that had toppled Salvador Allende, the Socialist president of Chile, five days earlier.
    “Our hand doesn’t show on this one, though,” one says.
    “We didn’t do it,” the other responds. “I mean, we helped them.”
    The conversation took place on a Sunday morning in September 1973 between former President Richard M. Nixon and his national security adviser, Henry Kissinger. The two men were discussing football — and the violent overthrow of a democratically elected government 5,000 miles away with their assistance.
    For the exhibition, two Spanish-speaking actors re-enacted the taped phone call based on a declassified transcript.
    The chance to listen in on the call is part of “Secrets of State: The Declassified History of the Chilean Dictatorship,” an exhibition that offers visitors an immersive experience of Washington’s intervention in Chile and its 17-year relationship with the military dictatorship of Gen. Augusto Pinochet.
    An enlarged and dramatically lit document sets the tone at the entrance. It is a presidential daily brief dated Sept. 11, 1973, the day of the coup. Its paragraphs are entirely redacted, every word blacked out.
    A dimly lit underground gallery guides visitors through a maze of documents — presidential briefings, intelligence reports, cables and memos — that describe secret operations and intelligence gathering carried out in Chile by the United States from the Nixon years through the Reagan presidency.
    “There is an arc of history that is very dramatic when you put these documents together,” said Peter Kornbluh, the exhibition’s curator who is a senior analyst at the National Security Archive in Washington and director of its Chile Documentation Project. “They have provided revelations and made headlines, they have been used as evidence in human rights prosecutions, and now they are contributing to the verdict of history.”
    On view are documents revealing secret exchanges about how to prevent Chile’s Congress from ratifying the Allende victory in 1970, plans for covert operations to destabilize his government and reports about a Chilean military officer informing the United States government of the coming coup and requesting assistance.
    There is a cable from the Central Intelligence Agency to its officers in Santiago after a failed operation in October 1970 to prevent Allende from assuming office, which he did that November. The C.I.A. provided weapons for the plan, which resulted in the killing of the commander in chief of the army, Gen. René Schneider, and the agency later sent money to help some of the plotters flee the country.
    “The station has done an excellent job of guiding Chileans to a point today where a military solution is at least an option for them,” the cable says, commending the officers, even though their plot was foiled.
    The exhibition includes only a small sample of the 23,000 documents on Chile that the Clinton administration declassified between 1999 and 2000 in response to international requests for evidence on Pinochet’s crimes. The former Chilean dictator was arrested in London in October 1998 and awaited extradition to Spain to face trial on charges of human rights abuses during his rule.
    As several other European countries also sought Pinochet’s extradition based on the principle of universal jurisdiction, Mr. Kornbluh, the curator, led a campaign to persuade the White House to release classified records that could serve in an eventual trial against the general.
    Documents on Chile from 1968 to 1991 from seven United States government agencies, some of them heavily redacted, were released as part of the State Department’s Chile Declassification Project. Most were declassified months after Pinochet was sent home from London for humanitarian reasons, but just in time to contribute to new judicial investigations in Chile.

    The documents have been used as evidence in several human rights inquiries involving American victims, including the 1973 killings in Chile of Frank Teruggi and Charles Horman; the 1976 car bomb assassination of Orlando Letelier, a foreign minister and defense minister in the Allende administration, and his American colleague, Ronni Karpen Moffitt, in Washington; the 1985 disappearance in Chile of Boris Weisfeiler, an American professor; and the killing of Rodrigo Rojas, a Chilean-born United States citizen who was burned alive by soldiers in Chile in 1986.

    They have also shed light on Operation Condor, a network of South American intelligence services in the 1970s and ’80s that shared information, traded prisoners and orchestrated assassinations abroad. The head of DINA, Chile’s clandestine intelligence agency, Gen. Manuel Contreras, was the mastermind behind Condor, and hosted an inaugural meeting in November 1975 in Santiago.
    In the exhibition, the seats at a rectangular table bear the names of the intelligence chiefs of Argentina, Bolivia, Paraguay, Uruguay and Chile who attended Operation Condor’s first meeting. A layer of earth covers the table, and brushes are provided for visitors to reveal what is beneath: the names of Condor victims, many of whom vanished without a trace.
    Nearby, copies of the front pages of dozens of newspapers from the Pinochet era hang from a panel simulating a kiosk. They were all published by the conservative media empire El Mercurio, which received at least $2 million from the C.I.A.
    The records in the exhibition also profile Pinochet, trace intelligence gathering on brutal state-sponsored repression and detail how the Reagan government abandoned Pinochet to his fate in 1988, fearing a further radicalization of the opposition.
    “These documents have helped us rewrite Chile’s contemporary history,” said Francisco Estévez, director of the museum. “This exhibit is a victory in the fight against negationism, the efforts to deny and relativize what happened during our dictatorship.”
    The Memory and Human Rights Museum opened in 2010 during the first term of President Michelle Bachelet and offers a chronological reconstruction of the 17-year Pinochet government through artifacts, recordings, letters, videos, photographs, artwork and other material. About 150,000 people visit the museum annually, a third of them groups of students, Mr. Estévez said.
    The National Security Archive donated a selection of 3,000 declassified documents to the museum several years ago, while the State Department provided the Chilean government with copies of the entire collection. Chileans, however, have rarely seen them.
    To see on a piece of paper, for example, the president of the United States ordering the C.I.A. to preemptively overthrow a democratically elected president in Chile is stunning,” Mr. Kornbluh said. “The importance of having these documents in the museum is for the new generations of Chileans to actually see them.”

    Peter Kornbluh curated the exhibition, which includes redacted documents and C.I.A. memos. “The importance of having these documents in the museum is for the new generations of Chileans to actually see them”

    ---
    Argentina: soon after the coup that brought him to power in 1976 General Jorge Rafael Videla began Argentina's dirty war. All political and union activities were suspended, wages were reduced by 60%, and dissidents were tortured by Nazi and US-trained military and police. Survivors say the torture rooms contained swastikas and pictures of Hitler, Mussolini and Franco. Although the U.S. press admitted human rights abuses occurred in Argentina, Videla was often described as a "moderate” who revitalized his nation's troubled economy. Reagan and his Secretary of State, Al Haig, viewed Carter’s public criticisms of Argentina as misguided and thought that any valid concerns about human rights abuses by the Argentine military should be raised privately. Thus, when the Argentine military junta replaced Videla with Roberto Viola as president in March 1981, Haig told Viola that there would be "no finger-pointing" regarding human rights, adding: "if there are problems, they will be discussed quietly and confidentially.” Reagan agreed, telling Viola that “there would be no public scoldings and lectures."
    More,
    - Newly Declassified Documents Outline America's

    -------
    Tunisia, a legitimate criticism- Bloomberg hit the nail on the head.
    Losing Afghanistan Was Inevitable. Losing Tunisia Is Not.
    Establishing a functioning democracy in Afghanistan was hard — so hard it turned out to be impossible. Tunisia, which on Monday passed from the status of functioning democracy to effective autocracy, would have been an easy win for Biden’s nominal commitment to sustain democracy around the world — if the administration had bothered to pay meaningful attention to it.
    Instead, the administration stood by and did nothing while the elected president of the Arab world’s only democracy suspended parliament in violation of the Tunisian constitution and announced that the members of the parliament would henceforth be subject to arrest.
    The facts here are remarkably simple. The Arab Spring started in Tunisia, where the dictator Zine El Abidine Ben Ali fled the country in January 2011 in response to popular protests. In the other Arab Spring countries that followed Tunisia’s example, dictators were challenged and sometimes toppled, but the ultimate result was more dictatorship (as in Egypt) or civil war (as in Syria, Libya and Yemen).
    Not so in Tunisia, where popular elections led to a constituent assembly that drafted and eventually ratified a liberal democratic constitution. Many could claim credit for this success, including four civil society institutions that were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for their stabilizing role in the process.
    Another important breakthrough occurred when the Islamic democratic party in Tunisia, known as Ennahda, dropped its demand for sharia to be inscribed in the constitution. It reinvented itself as a party of Muslim democrats on the model of Christian Democrats in Western European countries.
    In short, Tunisia was a success for constitutional democracy, and remained so until July of 2021.
    Tunisia’s democratically elected president, Kaies Saied, decided in recent months that circumstances were ripe for a major power grab. Saied is a former professor of constitutional law, and he proceeded to unroll a gradual coup d’état by exploiting a loophole in the Tunisian constitution.
    The Biden administration could have stopped this from happening at any point by stating directly that it would consider such action by the president to constitute a coup. Best practice would have been to get European countries on board with such an advance condemnation, especially France, which has close ties with its former colony.
    The cost to the U.S. would have been extraordinarily low. Not a single soldier would have been required, nor any threat of military force of any kind.
    ----
    To sum up, once again-Tunisia was the birthplace of the Arab Spring uprisings -widely seen as a success story- and it happened without the US government intervention; it emerged with a democratic system and a free society in Tunisia after the 2011 overthrow of Ben Ali; there are no “Taliban terrorists” in North Africa.The political crisis in Tunisia began when Saied declared he will rule by decree and ignore parts of the constitution as he prepares to change the political system. Tunisian President Saied moves to cement one-man rule

    Unsurprisingly,Tunisian parties announce coalition to counter President Saied
    The secretary-general of the Democratic Current party, Ghazi Chawashi, said that the objective of the coalition is to express the refusal of the monopolisation of power.He said Tunisia is witnessing a dangerous period that may lead to the collapse of the state and the end of democratic transitions.
    ------
    It seems that it doesn't matter what the Tunisian government says, it matters what Legio/ Lord has to say, even if it's not true.
    It is not possible to compare the small, limited, almost insignificant American military presence in Tunisia obtained through a bilateral agreement, to the failed American military occupation of Afghanistan after nearly 20 years of war.Tunisia signs 10-year military deal with US | Africanews (2020)
    Africom later clarified that it was only deploying "a small training unit" (*) that would not engage in combat missions, and the Tunisian government said there were no plans for an American base in the country.
    Why? that’s because there is a strong aversion across the political spectrum in North Africa to western intervention in the region (guess why). In fact, Tunisia union and parties refuse to discuss crisis with U.S
    Tunisia's powerful UGTT union and two political parties rejected on Friday an invitation to discuss the political crisis with a U.S congressional delegation visiting Tunisia, saying they refuse any foreign interference in local crisis. U.S. Senator Chris Murphy will lead a congressional delegation to discuss the path forward to protect democracy in Tunisia in a visit on Saturday, after President Kais Saied's seizure of governing powers in July... "Our Tunisian affair should be resolved only among Tunisians, UGTT union will not participate in the invitation of the American embassy", said Sami Tahri, the spokesman of UGTT union, a key player in Tunisia's political scene. He added that UGTT did not accept the bullying of foreigners in the time of former President Zine El Abidine Ben Ali, and "will not accept it today and tomorrow."
    ----
    (*) In more detail.In Tunisia, the American training unit consists of 150 Americans training and advising their Tunisian counterparts, trying to help Tunisia battle IS/Qaeda-linked groups, and there is nothing wrong with that, much to the contrary.
    IS must be exterminated like a virus, and it’s one of the most serious problems in the world; we can all easily agree on that.Right now,unarmed American surveillance drones fly reconnaissance missions from Tunisia’s main air base outside Bizerte, hunting terrorists who might be seeking to infiltrate through the country’s border with Libya, and again, there is nothing wrong with that.
    It’s worth to note that the US had sought permission to fly from bases farther south, but Tunisia comprehensively rejected that approach- that is to say, any aid that does not impinge on Tunisia's territorial sovereignty is welcomed, in fact the country is still struggling with its borders with Libya, launched into anarchy after US/western intervention.
    ---
    Since Afghanistan is recurrently mentioned in this thread: like Lord/Legio,there are those who remain in denial, until this day. Zalmay Khalizad, US ambassador to Afghanistan, wrote in 2005,
    For three years and half, the United States has been engaged with the Afghan people in an ambitious plan of state-building...This sucess was not expected...Why have we seen this success?
    It was a huge “success”, he said.Really. Twenty years later, Khalizad, widely known as the “Vice-Roy of Kabul”, was the architect of the US-Taliban deal, and in an a recent interview to Foreign Policy, Khalilzad said that he will “continue to reflect how and where the US went wrong in the last 20-odd years of its war on terror in in Afghanistan”.

    So, what went wrong? the presumption that a functioning state could be imposed from above by foreign forces was misplaced. Why Nation-Building Failed in Afghanistan
    ...This approach makes no sense when your starting point is a deeply heterogeneous society organized around local customs and norms, where state institutions have long been absent or impaired. The state is not imposed on a society against its wishes. Ashraf Ghani, the US-backed Afghan president who fled to the United Arab Emirates this week, co-authored a book in 2009 documenting how this strategy had fueled corruption and failed to achieve its stated purpose. Once in power, however, Ghani continued down the same road.
    The situation that the US confronted in Afghanistan was even worse than is typical for aspiring nation builders. From the very beginning, the Afghan population perceived the US presence as a foreign operation intended to weaken their society. That was not a bargain they wanted. What happens when top-down state-building efforts are proceeding against a society’s wishes? In many places, the only attractive option is to withdraw.
    after 20 years of misguided efforts, the US was destined to fail in its twin objectives of withdrawing from Afghanistan and leaving behind a stable, law-based society
    Last edited by Ludicus; October 09, 2021 at 02:22 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  12. #32

    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus
    Like it or not,as I said before, an authoritarian drift of power only happens when it is recognized as such by the United States.
    And again, none of your references make this claim. You’re making stuff up.
    The US supported authoritarian regimes in South America and turned a blind eye to the crimes of the Spanish dictatorship, the second country after Cambodia with the largest number of missing people.
    Chile: there is extensive documentation that shows.Documenting US Role in Democracy's Fall and Dictator's Rise in Chile - New York Times
    Brilliantly summarized,full article
    As you repeat here for no relevant reason, the US is weak and corrupt for maintaining normal relations with some governments whilst imperialist and oppressive for taking action against others. You can’t have it both ways, unless operating from the premise that anything the US does or does not do on the world stage is inherently wrong and bad. If the US had toppled or otherwise countered these regimes you mention any more than it already did, you complain, and yet you complain because it didn’t.
    Tunisia, a legitimate criticism- Bloomberg hit the nail on the head.
    The Bloomberg article completely contradicts your whole argument lol. It compares US support for Afghanistan to support for Tunisia, as I have, and argues the US should have used its power and influence to bring the Tunisian government to heel. As usual, America is deemed imperialist for anything it does and hypocritical/corrupt for anything it doesn’t.
    To sum up, once again-Tunisia was the birthplace of the Arab Spring uprisings -widely seen as a success story- and it happened without the US government intervention
    That’s false. As already pointed out, the US publicly backed the Revolution, called it a model for the region, and has continued to do so with the kind of economic and military assistance of you claimed to be imperialist in the Afghan case.
    there are no “Taliban terrorists” in North Africa.
    Ansar al-Sharia wants to be known as part of al Qaeda, long time ally of the Taliban. The US is supporting the Tunisian government against terrorists and insurgents, as it did in Afghanistan.
    It seems that it doesn't matter what the Tunisian government says, it matters what Legio/ Lord has to say, even if it's not true.
    It is not possible to compare the small, limited, almost insignificant American military presence in Tunisia obtained through a bilateral agreement, to the failed American military occupation of Afghanistan after nearly 20 years of war.
    Your own references prove what I’ve said. The US took on a non combat military support mission in Afghanistan post 2014 under a multilateral agreement with the Afghan government, training and equipping the Afghan army as your own quote points out is being done in the Tunisian case since around the same time.
    The U.S. military presence has been continuous since February 2014, when the Pentagon deployed a team of several dozen special operations troops to a remote base in western Tunisia. Tunisian soldiers accompanied by U.S. military advisors have on at least one occasion discovered and observed a populated militant camp in Kasserine. In the years since, the Air Force component of AFRICOM has frequently flown intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance missions across Tunisia from bases in Sigonella and Pantelleria, Italy. In the wake of the March 2015 terrorist attack at the Bardo Museum in Tunis, U.S. forces provided operational assistance to a counterterrorism operation targeting core members of KUBN in the town of Sidi Aich, Gafsa. U.S. staff and drones have also operated out of the Sidi Ahmed Air Base in Bizerte.
    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/mi...isia-31492?amp
    It’s incredible that you would continue to reject basic facts when some of your own references compare the situation with Afghanistan, and here you are praising the same situation you called imperialist and calling for more such behavior from the US.
    more detail.In Tunisia, the American training unit consists of 150 Americans training and advising their Tunisian counterparts, trying to help Tunisia battle IS/Qaeda-linked groups, and there is nothing wrong with that, much to the contrary.

    IS must be exterminated like a virus, and it’s one of the most serious problems in the world; we can all easily agree on that.Right now,unarmed American surveillance drones fly reconnaissance missions from Tunisia’s main air base outside Bizerte, hunting terrorists who might be seeking to infiltrate through the country’s border with Libya, and again, there is nothing wrong with that.
    It’s worth to note that the US had sought permission to fly from bases farther south, but Tunisia comprehensively rejected that approach- that is to say, any aid that does not impinge on Tunisia's territorial sovereignty is welcomed, in fact the country is still struggling with its borders with Libya, launched into anarchy after US/western intervention.
    Within the same post you claimed what you’ve said here wasn’t true.
    It was a huge “success”, he said.Really. Twenty years later, Khalizad, widely known as the “Vice-Roy of Kabul”, was the architect of the US-Taliban deal, and in an a recent interview to Foreign Policy, Khalilzad said that he will “continue to reflect how and where the US went wrong in the last 20-odd years of its war on terror in in Afghanistan”.

    So, what went wrong? the presumption that a functioning state could be imposed from above by foreign forces was misplaced. Why Nation-Building Failed in Afghanistan
    The US has economically and militarily backed democratic governments in Afghanistan and Tunisia from inception. Complaining that US nation building in Afghanistan is imperialist while complaining about the relative lack of nation building in Tunisia proves only that your argument is anti-American propaganda, not an avoidable criticism.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; October 09, 2021 at 06:30 PM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  13. #33
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    Beginning as a movement for greater freedoms, sustained pressure by the Tunisian people and the active participation of multiple Tunisian pro-democracy NGOs, that’s how the Tunisia managed the democratic transition.The ATFD -Tunisian Association of Democratic Women -used the cause of women's rights to further the calls for democracy in Tunisia,with a little help of several United Nations human rights NGOs and the United Nations Economic and Social Council.

    In 2005,Condoleeza Rice, gave a speech at the American University in Cairo, lauding the autocratic leadership of Mubarak,
    For sixty years, my country, the United States, pursued stability at the expense of democracy in this region, here in the Middle East, and we achieved neither. Now, we are taking a different course. We are supporting the democratic aspirations of all people. As President Bush said in his Second Inaugural Address: "America will not impose our style of government on the unwilling.(1) People choose democracy freely
    .Remarks at the American University in Cairo - US Department

    (1)I hope the irony’s not lost on you.

    This at the same time she praised the dictator for having "unlocked the door for change". The dictator Ben Ali ruled Tunisia for 23 years despite the words of Rice,and the US government found nothing to complain about,ignoring report from respected human rights organizations.
    ----
    Anti-American propaganda? well, it seems that half of America is anti-American,including the President of the US. (Biden, “Nation-building in Afghanistan never made any sense to me"), and the previously mentioned US newspapers.New York Times, etc.
    More? Afghanistan shows the U.S. folly of trying to implant democratic institutions abroad -The Conversation

    The Taliban takeover in Afghanistan and continuing political instability in Iraq provide painful but valuable lessons for those who insist on implanting democracy in a sociopolitical environment that’s profoundly shaped by inveterate tribal loyalty, kinship and sectarian affiliation.
    Ethnically and religiously motivated political rivalries have been a hallmark of Afghan politics for at least the past four decades. The presence of American and NATO forces in Afghanistan since 2001 provided an incentive for these factional groups to intensify their rivalries. Despite declarations of a commitment to building democratic institutions, the western-backed Afghan government was nothing more than a corporate entity. Its shareholders were regional warlords and local officials who exercised enormous control and influence over “the disbursement of financial resources,” including international aid, and bureaucratic recruitment to public positions in both the civil service and the military.
    This summer’s disintegration of the Afghan government and the continuation of political turmoil in Iraq provide invaluable lessons for the United States, which has imposed upon itself the duty of emancipating the world in the name of democracy.
    The failure to bring democracy to Iraq and Afghanistan is a compelling testimony of the fallacy of the project heralded by neoconservatives and put into action by George W. Bush. The former U.S. president justified these wars as “democratizing missions.”
    The abject failure of both missions shows the folly of trying to implant democratic institutions in societies where kinship, tribal loyalty and sectarian affiliation have deep roots.
    Sectarianism and ethnic loyalty tend to foster environments that aren’t receptive to liberal values of tolerance, respect for civil liberty and individual freedom — all of which are essential conditions to develop vibrant and successful democracies.
    Loyalty to tribes and sectarian affiliation often impede the development of loyalty to the wider political community. This is a painful reality that must be taken into consideration by those who insist on installing democracy in countries marked by ingrained tribal and sectarian loyalty.
    -----
    -----
    Respect for human dignity and human rights, freedom, democracy, equality and the rule of law must begin at home and among allies, in first place. In a democracy, values and interests should be one and the same thing- but it rarely happens. During the American Civil War, Lincoln, a political realist, wrote, the war "is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slaves, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could do it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that". We can easily conclude the civil war was not fought over the moral issue of slavery. Realpolitik,right?

    Realpolitik -a German term-can be defined as the egoistic pursuit of the national interest. Meinecke argues that "National egoism is timeless and general". States weigh costs against benefits -occasionally in the name of self-preservation. It came into my mind that nowadays realpolitik which excuses everything when it is convenient,has became the beloved son of the big business and big capital, whose sole ideology is profit.
    Anyway, it’s a huge hypocrisy to demand respect for democratic values from political enemies without first demanding it of our allies and ourselves.
    That’s the reason why Shadi Hamid writes, in The Atlantic,another great American newspaper- The Return of Hypocrisy - The Atlantic
    Last edited by alhoon; October 11, 2021 at 03:10 AM. Reason: off topic / continuity
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  14. #34

    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus
    Beginning as a movement for greater freedoms, sustained pressure by the Tunisian people and the active participation of multiple Tunisian pro-democracy NGOs, that’s how the Tunisia managed the democratic transition.
    Again, the US backed the Revolution and has since economically and militarily supported the Tunisian government with hundreds of millions of dollars in aid programs and more in the form of loans and financial support, plus troops, equipment and training, all to support the democratic transition and shared interests in the fight against the Taliban’s allies in the country. You called this imperialism and the mark of illegitimacy in Afghanistan’s case. Now you’re chastising the US for not being imperialist enough to control Tunisia’s government.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus
    Anti-American propaganda? well, it seems that half of America is anti-American,including the President of the US. (Biden, “Nation-building in Afghanistan never made any sense to me"), and the previously mentioned US newspapers.New York Times, etc.
    Half of America didn’t call the NATO presence in Afghanistan under an international agreement with the Afghan government “an imperial occupation,” whilst praising the Taliban as liberators and rightful, moderate rulers, and complaining the US failed to bring the Tunisian and Afghan governments to heel.You did that.
    We can easily conclude the civil war was not fought over the moral issue of slavery.
    Yet again we find your position aligned with these “libertarians” featured in your posts. The Civil War wasn’t about slavery….non-Europeans are too civilizationally backward to do democracy…..the Taliban is based af…..
    Anyway, it’s a huge hypocrisy to demand respect for democratic values from political enemies without first demanding it of our allies and ourselves.
    At last, the disingenuous, child-like essence of the anti-American narrative - a general projection of hypocrisy. First, the US is an imperialist menace for taking virtually any action at all you don’t like. Second, it is a corrupt and weak hypocrite for not taking “imperialist” actions against all authoritarian governments simultaneously, or even against its own allies. The US is a murderous rogue bully for not fully recognizing and maintaining normal relations with the Taliban, yet also condemned for only sanctioning/embargoing other regimes instead of taking stronger action. Logically, the only conclusion is that the US is expected to find a way to do nothing at all on the world stage, beyond perhaps serving as a piggy bank for this or that political project. Thus it’s no wonder this double think is the go to tactic of US adversaries for decades now, originally a Soviet technique. The Tunisian government would likely not survive without US support, and expanding relations is key to its longer term survival.
    Last edited by alhoon; October 11, 2021 at 03:11 AM. Reason: continuity
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  15. #35
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    Remember that this thread is about Tunisia. Actions of current and past political leaders are topical only as far as it concerns Tunisia or similar cases. Please stay on topic.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  16. #36
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    In fact, the thread isn't about Afghanistan, but someone here insists on mixing two separate, completely different topics.
    More, from the international press,
    The US and EU must put pressure on Tunisia before it's too late
    Saied’s blatant power grab is supported by the authoritarian Arab states of Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the UAE. Beyond the region, this could also signal a shift in alliancetowards Moscow and Beijing, both of which have supported strongman rule across the Middle East and Africa.
    Saied’s moves...could eventually provoke significant backlash from countries like France, Tunisia’s largest economic ally.
    The Biden administration must use its influence to insist that Tunisia respect people’s rights as enshrined in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, to which Tunisia is a signatory, and reassert that is not permissible for the President to use the claim of ‘national sovereignty’ as justification for political and human rights violations.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  17. #37

    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    Maybe if Kais Saied changed his name to Zabihullah Mujahid, auth left shills would support him against the pressure of imperialist western colonizers and their puppet “democratic” government in Bardo Palace.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; October 13, 2021 at 08:44 AM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  18. #38
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    Once again, this tread is about the political instability in Tunisia. Why is this guy allowed to troll?
    Lord aka Legio, feel free to start a new thread about the "United Sates : Empire as a Way of Life?" I will certainly participate.
    ----
    Latest news,
    European Union this week joined other donors in calling for a restoration of democratic order in Tunisia,







    European Parliament resolution of 21 October 2021 on the situation in Tunisia (2021/2903(RSP))
    The European Parliament,
    – having regard to its previous resolutions on Tunisia and its resolution of 25 February 2016 on the opening of negotiations for an EU-Tunisia Free Trade Agreement(1),
    – having regard to the final report of the EU Election Observation Mission to the presidential and parliamentary elections in Tunisia held on 15 September and 6 October 2019,
    – having regard to the Association Agreement between the European Union and Tunisia, and to the various thematic meetings held under its framework in 2019 and 2020,
    – having regard to the International Monetary Fund (IMF) Executive Board Conclusions of 26 February 2021 under the Article IV Consultation with Tunisia,
    – having regard to the Joint Communiqué on EU-Tunisia relations of 4 June 2021: ‘For a renewed partnership’,
    – having regard to Tunisian Presidential Decree No. 2021-69 of 26 July 2021 terminating the functions of the Head of Government and members of the Government, Tunisian Presidential Decree No. 2021-80 of 29 July 2021 relating to the suspension of the powers of the Assembly of People’s Representatives, Tunisian Presidential Decree No. 2021-109 of 24 August 2021 relating to the extension of exceptional measures relating to the suspension of the powers of the Assembly of People’s Representatives, and Tunisian Presidential Decree No. 2021-117 of 22 September 2021 relating to exceptional measures,
    – having regard to the declaration by the Vice-President of the Commission / High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy (VP/HR) on behalf of the European Union of 27 July 2021 and his statements to the press in Tunis on 10 September 2021,
    – having regard to the Constitution of Tunisia of 2014,
    – having regard to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, to which Tunisia is a party,
    – having regard to the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW), which Tunisia ratified in 1985 and to which it withdrew its reservations in 2014,
    – having regard to the National Action Plan (NAP) on Women, Peace and Security 2018-2022, adopted in 2018,
    – having regard to Rule 132(2) and (4) of its Rules of Procedure,
    A. whereas Tunisia is a privileged partner of the EU, and continuous support and backing has been a priority, with election observation missions in 2011, 2014, 2018, and 2019 confirming the EU’s unwavering commitment to democracy in Tunisia; whereas this year’s 10th anniversary of the Tunisian Revolution marks an important moment in Tunisia’s democratic development;
    B. whereas the socio-economic situation has been characterised by widespread economic stagnation, related to internal political context, and a sanitary crisis with the world’s second highest rate of COVID-19 deaths; whereas the COVID-19 pandemic, the lack of tourism, high levels of youth unemployment and inflation have exacerbated Tunisia’s fragile economy; whereas endemic corruption, incomplete transitional justice and serious economic and security challenges remain substantial obstacles to Tunisia’s full democratic consolidation;
    C. whereas, in this context, on 25 July 2021 the President, Kais Saied, invoked Article 80 of the Tunisian Constitution, which empowers him to enact exceptional measures in order to deal with an imminent danger to the state, and announced the dismissal of Prime Minister Hichem Mechichi, the suspension of the Assembly of People’s Representatives (ARP) for an extendable period of 30 days and the lifting of the parliamentary immunity of all its Members; whereas on 24 August, 2021, the President extended the suspension of Parliament;
    D. whereas the governments of the UAE, Saudi Arabia and Egypt immediately praised and expressed rhetorical support for President Saied’s initiative;
    E. whereas the absence of Constitutional Court formation, and the resulting inability for Members of Parliament to appeal against any unilateral extension of the emergency situation by the President, as established in the relevant article of the Constitution, gave rise to serious concerns about the Tunisian democratic transition and fundamental rights in the country;
    F. whereas on 22 September 2021, the President issued Presidential Decree No 2021-117, which contains provisions affirming self-supremacy and the primacy of the decree over the Constitution, thereby undermining the Constitution, and concentrates all the powers of the State in the person of President Kais Saied; whereas the Constitution’s provisions on rights and freedoms will only be respected and guaranteed when they do not contravene laws based on presidential decree-laws and exceptional measures; whereas Presidential Decree 117 does not allow any presidential decision to be appealed in a court of law, including before Tunisia’s highest Administrative Court and its Court of Cassation;
    G. whereas this concentration of powers has been vested in the President’s hands without any time limit; whereas the President granted himself full legislative power to modify by decree the laws governing political parties, elections, the judiciary system, unions and associations, freedom of the press and freedom of information, the organisation of the justice department, human rights and freedoms, the Code of Personal Status, internal security forces, customs and state budget;
    H. whereas although Tunisian civil society has publicly expressed its serious concerns about new restrictions, President Kais Saied’s July measures did enjoy significant public support, which shows the public discontent with the serious socio-economic situation and severe governmental dysfunction the country is facing; whereas 18 local and international NGOs have issued a joint declaration warning about the situation of democracy in Tunisia; whereas the G7 has called on Tunisia to return to a constitutional order and for parliamentary activities to be resumed;
    I. whereas on 26 July 2021 Tunisian police closed the offices of Al Jazeera in Tunis without providing any explanation;
    J. whereas civil society in Tunisia is well-developed and consolidated, and has played a fundamental role in shaping and strengthening Tunisia’s democratic transition since 2011, with numerous activists calling for urgent reforms, including anti-corruption measures, and whereas national dialogue is one of the particular traits of the country; whereas freedom of the press and freedom of publication are essential components of an open, free and democratic society; whereas since 26 July, civil society has neither been included in the national dialogue nor been consulted on the steps taken by President Kais Saied;
    K. whereas, on 10 September 2021, the Tunisian General Labour Union (UGTT) presented its roadmap calling for the establishment of a national consultative committee in order to ensure a legal framework for inclusive social and political reforms in the country, in particular the reform of the political system and the electoral law, as well as the amendment of the Constitution;
    L. whereas the Tunisian economy is highly dependent on foreign investment, tourism and exports of products to the EU; whereas Tunisia’s current account and fiscal deficits require solid structural reforms according to the World Bank; whereas the EU is Tunisia’s largest trade partner, accounting for 57,9 % of its trade in 2020, with 70,9 % of Tunisia’s exports going to the EU and 48,3 % of its imports originating from the EU; whereas the economy can only flourish if democracy is restored and security and stability are ensured;
    M. whereas the COVID-19 pandemic has exacerbated the already fragile situation in Tunisia; whereas there have been shortages of the oxygen supplies and vaccines needed for an effective response to the health crisis;
    N. whereas an increasing number of Tunisians have been leaving their country, sometimes risking their lives crossing the Mediterranean; whereas Tunisia suffers from one of the highest rate of brain drain among Arab countries;
    O. whereas the EU since 2011 has made substantial and continuous efforts in support of Tunisia, providing over EUR 2 billion in grants to support Tunisia’s declared commitment to embrace transition towards democracy, including EUR 260 million in 2020 and EUR 200 million as of June 2021 as part of its macro-financial assistance; whereas in May 2021 an instalment of EUR 600 million was made available under the macro-financial assistance programme for Tunisia with the specific objective of mitigating the economic fallout of the COVID-19 pandemic in the country; whereas for the period from 2021 to 2027, the EU will replace the various instruments with the new Neighbourhood, Development and International Cooperation Instrument (NDICI) – Global Europe, and whereas consolidating, supporting and promoting democracy, the rule of law and respect for human rights is one of the main objectives of the EU’s external assistance provided under the instrument;
    P. whereas the EU’s commitment to stepping up its efforts to promote democracy was reiterated in the EU Action Plan on Human Rights and Democracy, adopted by the Council in November 2020;
    Q. whereas Tunisia’s 2014 Constitution calls for freedom of belief and conscience;

    1. Reaffirms its commitment to the privileged partnership between the EU and Tunisia, and to Tunisia’s democratic process; is deeply concerned, however, that Presidential Decree 2021-117 established the indefinite concentration of powers in the President’s hands; reiterates that respect for the rule of law, the Constitution and the legislative framework must be preserved, and that a well-functioning and legitimate Parliament is needed, as it is the institution which represents the people; deplores, therefore, President Saied’s indefinite suspension of the Tunisian Parliament since 24 August;
    2. Calls for a return to normal functioning of state institutions, including a return to full-fledged democracy and the resumption of parliamentary activity as soon as possible, as part of a national dialogue, and for a clear road map to be announced;
    3. Strongly underlines that a parliament is an essential institution of democracy, and necessary for any constitutional reform; highlights that the absence of a Constitutional Court in Tunisia allows for a far-reaching interpretation and application of Article 80 of the Constitution and prevents Members of Parliament from lodging an appeal to obtain a legal judgement on its suspension and the additional measures taken by the President on the grounds of Article 80; calls on Tunisia to establish a constitutional court with the objective of avoiding misinterpretations and misuse of its Constitution;
    4. Reiterates the VP/HR’s call for the restoration of institutional stability as soon as possible, and in particular for respect for fundamental rights and freedoms enshrined in Tunisia’s 2014 Constitution and for abstention from all forms of violence;
    5. Notes the appointment of Najla Bouden Ramadhan as Prime Minister on 29 September and the designation of the Cabinet of Ministers on 11 October 2021; notes the appointment of 10 women as Ministers;
    6. Calls on the President to reconsider his position and to actively support all steps to guarantee equal rights between women and men in all areas, especially in laws against women in inheritance rights, child custody rights, rights granted as the head of the household, the right to parental leave, and labour rights, particularly for domestic workers and women agricultural workers;
    7. Calls on the Tunisian authorities to respect the Constitution and to ensure that the fundamental rights of all citizens are respected; recalls the inalienable character of fundamental and human rights, and their unconditional supremacy, and calls for the re-establishment of the Constitution as primary law; calls on Tunisia to fully abolish the death penalty;
    8. Calls on the authorities to avoid the legal uncertainty created by travel bans, state surveillance and house arrests; considers trials of civilians by military courts to be highly problematic, and calls for the restoration of an independent judiciary, leading to the reform of the military courts in Tunisia which would do away with military trials of civilians;
    9. Insists that any changes to the Constitution and the political system can only take place within the boundaries of the Constitution; takes notes of the criticism by the Tunisian League for the Defence of Human Rights and other civil society organisations of the concentration of powers in the hands of the President; underlines that in a democracy, the balance of powers and the separation of powers must prevail;
    10. Recognises the key role played by the National Dialogue Quartet, consisting of the UGTT, the Tunisian Confederation of Industry, Trade and Handicrafts (UTICA), the Tunisian Human Rights League (LTDH), the Tunisian Order of Lawyers, in facilitating an inclusive national dialogue, for which it was awarded the Nobel Peace prize in 2015; calls on the President to contribute to a national framework for all stakeholders to resume this dialogue effectively; recalls the key role of the European Parliament’s Democracy Support and Election Coordination Group (DEG) in promoting a dialogue between civil society and Tunisia’s political leaders;
    11. Highlights the urgent need to overcome the socio-economic crisis the country is facing with structural reforms and policies;
    12. Reaffirms EU’s unwavering commitment to supporting Tunisia in overcoming the financial and economic crisis, as well as on its path towards further democratic consolidation; calls on the Commission and European External Action Service (EEAS) to step up their dialogue with the Tunisian authorities, economic entities and Tunisian civil society; stresses the need for stable and functional institutions in order to make progress with the necessary structural reforms needed to obtain an IMF bailout loan;
    13. Underlines that a common understanding of the rule of law, democracy and human rights is the primary foundation of a strong EU-Tunisia partnership; urges the President to allow for the full and proper functioning of independent regulatory state bodies, including the provisional body for the review of the constitutionality of laws and the National Anti-Corruption Authority;
    14. Is concerned about foreign interference undermining Tunisian democracy;
    15. Calls on the EU to continue programmes that directly support Tunisian citizens, and to step up assistance where necessary in the light of the current crisis, including with healthcare support through the COVAX system to help the country to manage the severe impact of the COVID-19 pandemic;
    16. Calls on the VP/HR and the Member States to closely follow the situation in Tunisia, and calls on the VP/HR to report back to Parliament’s Committee on Foreign Affairs on a regular basis in order to ensure adequate parliamentary dialogue on this important and worrying situation;
    17. Instructs its President to forward this resolution to the Council, the Commission, the EEAS, the Vice-President of the Commission / High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, the President of Tunisia, the Government of Tunisia and the Tunisian Parliament.
    Last edited by Ludicus; October 22, 2021 at 04:29 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  19. #39

    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    Smh just goes to show Europe never learns; the hypernationalist libertarian warmonger mindset of some Europeans has the latter convinced they can use their imperialist schemes to force democracy on Tunisia. In reality, Tunisia is merely an illegitimate puppet of the American Empire rife with corruption, propped up with American cash and troops. Tunisia was never really a legitimate country, just a bunch of tribes that can’t do democracy, but Americans and Europeans think they can order them around.

    For years the Americans and Europeans have been larping there but the so-called “democratic” American-backed regime change released a bunch of Islamist anti-imperial freedom fighters that have become known as Ansar al-Sharia, an affiliate of Taliban ally al Qaeda, along with ISIL and other insurgents that are active throughout the so-called country. When will the western colonizers ever learn? Only Fr. Joe Biden (pbuh) can teach them. Years and years of support with nothing to show for it. As Lamartine so wisely said:

    O Lake! Scarce has a single year coursed past.
    To waves that she was meant to see again,
    I come alone to sit upon this stone
    You saw her sit on then.

    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  20. #40
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    As I said before,
    1-feel free to open a new thread about the American Imperialism.Suggested tittle, once again "United States : Empire as a Way of Life?". As Reece clearly recognized in 2005, "for sixty years, my country, the United States, pursued stability at the expense of democracy in this region, here in the Middle East" . The United States expansion overseas has indeed been imperialistic- occasionally based on soft power. Suggested reading:The Follies of Democratic Imperialism
    Just one quote,
    ...As noted by the Harvard political scientist Samuel Huntington, “There is little that the United States can do to alter the basic cultural tradition and social structure of another society or to promote compromise among groups of that society that have been killing each other.” Instead, the conditions that favor democracy depend for their emergence largely upon the political skills of a given society.
    Another excellent quote,
    Iraq (*) tellingly suggests how an occupation can itself become an obstacle to democratization. Another flaw in America’s self-anointed role as a democratic crusader is that it entails creating democracy through undemocratic means. Imposing democracy requires one country to intrude itself in the political affairs of another country, thereby robbing democracy of its indigenous legitimacy. Arguably the most intrusive step in the imposition of democracy is the creation of an interim or provisional government... Arguably the most intrusive step in the imposition of democracy is the creation of an interim or provisional government
    (*) Or Afghanistan

    2-And I never said that Tunisia is "an illegitimate puppet of the American Empire".
    3- You already know what I think about the puppet government of Ghani in Afghanistan.
    I'm keeping this short. You/we should try to keep in mind the moderators' words, "Remember that this thread is about Tunisia.Please stay on topic".
    Last edited by Ludicus; October 22, 2021 at 06:33 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

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