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Thread: Political instability in Tunisia.

  1. #41

    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    I completely agree. That’s why I pointed out the US puppet government in Tunisia is backed by American cash and troops. It could hardly survive on its own. Hopefully the freedom fighters in Tunisia can liberate their country from Amerikkka like their Taliban allies did. The Europeans and Americans cannot dictate terms to Sultan Saied, an austere scholar who has dared to challenge the US-backed “democracy.” This imperialist mentality on the part of European powers is the result of systemic racism, plain and simple. Realize it or no, I mentioned previously, an undemocratic slide of power takes place only when it is so called by the EU.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".
    “To live without faith, without a heritage to defend, without battling constantly for truth, is not to live but to ‘get along’; we must never just ‘get along’.” - Pier Giorgio Frassati

  2. #42
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    I pointed out the US puppet government in Tunisia is backed by American cash and troops.
    There is no such a thing as a puppet government in Tunisia, and reverting to autocracy isn't the answer to Tunisia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    an undemocratic slide of power takes place only when it is so called by the EU.
    ...and US lawmakers, US lawmakers call on Biden to determine whether Tunisia crisis constitutes a coup
    ...But Washington has stopped short of calling Saied's actions a coup
    The EU, no worse or better than the US (read below *), at least in this case had the courage to face the facts and call things by their true names. Joint Motion For a Resolution on the situation in Tunisia (previous post)
    -----
    Now let's hear The North Africa Working Group. The Group is chaired by Sarah Yerkes, a fellow in the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace’s Middle East Program, where her research focuses on Tunisia’s political, economic, and security developments as well as state-society relations in the Middle East and North Africa. Yerkes is a former member of the State Department’s policy planning staff, where she focused on North Africa. Previously, she was a foreign affairs officer in the State’s Department’s Office of Israel and Palestinian affairs. Yerkes also served as a geopolitical research analyst for the U.S. military’s Joint Staff Strategic Plans and Policy Directorate (J5) at the Pentagon, advising the Joint Staff leadership on foreign policy and national security issues,

    Even the American North Africa Working Group has recognized -as I said before- two crucial keys points (A New Strategy for US Engagement in North Africa - A Report of the North Africa Working Group- February 2021)

    1-"To be sure, the impetus for reform and the sustained public pressure on those in power came directly from the Tunisian people".

    2-The United States devotes a very small percentage of its overall foreign assistance budget to promoting good governance in the region...Even rhetorically, the United States has been muted in its support for political reform and good governance in most North African countries
    -----
    Also,
    3-The Biden administration might also consider adopting a "more for more" principle like the European Union’s, rewarding countries for meeting certain governance benchmarks.

    More from Sarah Yerkes,

    “the shift from democracy promoter – albeit reluctantly at times – to authoritarian enabler has made the task of democratic political reform far more challenging for people across the Middle East...A high (or low) point of this development was reached when the current US Secretary of State Rex Tillerson stated in May 2017 that that human rights values would now take a back seat compared to economic interests or national security”

    I say:Then, now and always. That's where I beg to differ with Sarah. Remember, Condoleezza Rice promised to break the pattern of 60 years "during which my country, supported stability in expense of democracy, and we achieved neither". She was right, of course, and this summarizes my thinking relative to the historical role of the US Foreign Policy in North African and the Middle East. Denver Journal of International Law & Policy, Volume 41, article 5, 44th Annual Sutton Colloquium The Arab Spring, U.S. Foreign Policy, and the Question of Democracy in the Middle East
    Page 32,
    These recent public statements by senior American politicians in support of democracy in Middle East, however, ignore longstanding U.S. policy where political stability was preferred over parliamentary democracy. Stability was a code word for support for authoritarian regimes that protected U.S. interests from hostile forces emerging from within and outside the region.
    page 35,
    Greater democracy does not always translate into greater support for U.S. geo-strategic interests in the region. There is often a chasm between popular indigenous nationalist sentiments on key geo-strategic issues versus the foreign policy preferences of the United States. In this context Tamara Coffman Wittes has correctly observed that the broad problem that haunts American democratization efforts is that ... [the] general preference for democratic politics has long been tempered, in regard to the Arab world, by the knowledge that the victors of a democratic process in most Arab countries are unlikely to be the parties who share America's policy preferences in the region.' In other words, as former Secretary of State Madeline Albright once observed, "Arab public opinion, after all, can be rather scary"

    Let's take a bit of a deeper dive into the subject,

    (*) EU, no better or worse than the US,

    Cambridge University Press— Promoting Democracy, Reinforcing Authoritarianism- Benjamin Schuetze, excerpts

    ...Many of the Jordanian youth, politicians, officials and activists whom I interviewed in the course of my research were fundamentally skeptical of ‘democracy promotion’ programmes in the country and at times also doubted the relevance of an entire book focusing on them. One Jordanian economist only remarked that "everybody realizes that money and ... weapons are more important".
    The main research question that this book investigates concerns what US and European "democracy promoters" in Jordan actually do when they promote democracy,

    Chapter “Democracy Promotion” and Moral Authority

    ...While it was only after the end of the Cold War that the idea of "democracy promotion" became a generic framework for the foreign policies of all Western countries. its origins both in terms of practice and ideology date back much further.

    As shown by Smith, the idea of "democracy promotion" first gained some prominence during the Philippine-American war between 1899 and 1902 and the subsequent US occupation:

    It was a way of governing this possession on which both imperialists and anti-imperialists could agree. Imperialists could thereby tout the superiority of the Anglo-Saxon race, while anti-imperialists could reassure themselves that the ideals of self-government would not be endangered ... The result was important for the future of American foreign policy for the simple reason that American power now had a mission that justified its exercise ... now the United States had a moral purpose to its imperialism and could rest more easily


    Yet the idea of “democracy promotion” only became institutionalized in US politics after authoritarian regimes supported by the US and former European colonial powers – such as Iran under the Shah – came under increasing popular pressure in the late 1970s, and after the democratic transitions in Spain and Portugal among others.

    ... Against the backdrop of a seeming affirmation of liberal market democracy as a morally superior and universally applicable mode of governance, the notion of "democracy promotion" is based on a staunchly teleological understanding of human history...In regard to the centrality of the claim of moral authority, German philosopher and political theorist Carl Schmitt succinctly argued in a 1927 critique of liberal democracy that "[t]he concept of humanity is an especially useful ideological instrument of imperialist expansion, and in its ethical-humanitarian form it is a specific vehicle of economic imperialism".

    What Democracy?

    ... The widely asserted universal moral superiority of Western liberal democratic values is consequently, as argued by Mouffe, not "the manifestation of a deeper objectivity that would be exterior to the practices that brought it into being but the direct result of conscious ideological attempts at constructing democracy as a means of social control that does not automatically challenge social difference, including socio-economic inequalities".

    ------
    I would say that US support for authoritarianism in the Middle East undermines democracy in the US.
    October 21, Norm Coleman: Former U.S. Senator Now Lobbyist and Agent for the Saudi Government

    His firm, Hogan Lovells, has received almost $14 million ($13,715,783) from the Saudi government since 2014, including more than $2.7 million in 2019 alone.
    In one especially disingenuous act, Coleman distributed to numerous Senators a Saudi government fact sheet extolling its record despite its egregious human rights abuses and war crimes.
    Among other falsehoods and misleading statements, this publication trumpets the Saudi government's contributions to women's rights and justice, notwithstanding the ongoing torture and imprisonment of women's rights activists and political activists in sham judicial proceedings relying on laws that criminalize criticizing the royal family.
    Following the Saudi government's declining reputation over Jamal Khashoggi's murder and its disastrous war in Yemen, Coleman's firm played a key part in seeking to rehabilitate the Kingdom's reputation through an astroturfing campaign.
    Last edited by Ludicus; October 24, 2021 at 02:24 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  3. #43

    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    As viewed through perusal of the articles Ludicus provided, America has been lied to over time regarding the three basic points underpinning the American failure in Tunisia:

    Corruption, in full view of America, who believed it achievable to construct a country by bribing tribes and the corrupt government of Tunisia, America’s puppet “democracy.”

    The fantasy of Tunisian “democracy.” It is well known the Tunisian military is propped up by America.

    The reality is understood by the Tunisians, who are really just biding their time for the legitimate authority of Taliban allies.
    There is no such a thing as a puppet government in Tunisia, and reverting to autocracy isn't the answer to Tunisia.
    The neo-colonial mentality of this attitude is on full display. The government of Tunisia was created through US backing of the so-called democratic Revolution, and military occupation in a tribal, premodern, non-country. The US backed “democracy” is illegitimate Vichy puppet.
    The EU, no worse or better than the US (read below *), at least in this case had the courage to face the facts and call things by their true names.
    The EU imperialists can call things whatever they want. Now they even presume to tell America what to do. Old habits.
    Now let's hear The North Africa Working Group. The Group is chaired by Sarah Yerkes
    The Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and the US Institute of Peace are American propaganda factories headed by corporate CEOs and former government officials. Sarah Yerkes is an imperialist of great renown. Here she is chastising the previous US Administration for not sending more military aid to the puppet Tunisian regime.
    The United States has been instrumental in shoring up Tunisia's security since the 2011 revolution. U.S. and European assistance has not only provided essential equipment for the Tunisian police and military, but also helped professionalize the security forces and train them in counter-terrorism tactics. This support has allowed Tunisia to build a partial border wall with Libya to prevent smuggling of goods and people. And in 2015, the U.S. designated Tunisia a Major Non-NATO Ally - only the 16th country worldwide to receive such a designation- that was meant to bolster the American-Tunisian security partnership.

    But regardless of Tunisia's ability or willingness to accept the administration's proposed approach to military aid, turning our back on Tunisia now sends a terrible signal that defeating and destroying ISIS is a priority - as long as someone else is paying the bills.

    https://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-bl...t-against-isis
    Yerkesian libertarian warmongers may think they can pick sides in other countries’ internal conflicts, designate allies and pour money into training and support missions - aka forever wars - in Afghanistan and Tunisia. But that’s just white supremacy talking. The reality is the vassal government is a failed state propped up by their American masters :
    As it approaches its 10th anniversary, the democracy established by the Tunisian revolution has become something totally removed from people’s lives, their demands and the dreams they had for a radical change in their conditions. Its result has been the opposite of their dreams, with conditions worsening at all levels rather than improving.

    But the most unfortunate thing here is that the legislative institution that is supposed to undertake the drafting of laws necessary to enable the radical discourse of the revolution has turned into a space for a new kind of struggle — a struggle between the various lobbies of corrupt money, which have succeeded in co-opting a significant number of MPs and politicians. They have taken over so much that when passing new laws, it is the interests of these influential groups, not those of the people who elected parliament in the first place, that are taken into consideration.

    The result is that Tunisia is under threat of being classified as a failed state by the standards of international financial funds — that is to say, a state unable to fulfil its financial commitments or build a stable economy capable of attracting capital and investors.

    https://thearabweekly.com/formal-dem...olitical-class
    In European colonies in Africa there was a proverb: “Muslims should all die.” This is a systemic racism. For now, America and Europe interfere in Tunisia “to fight extremists” like ISIL or allies of the Taliban. Soon, only mediums are there. Then they will be liquidated.

    Those who defy the laws of anti-intervention and insist on propping up so-called democracies in Tunisia and Afghanistan only spread war and death. I don’t get whether arch conservative white libertarian warmongerers pretend to protect Tunisian democracy out of belief or some scheme. Everyone knows libertarianism is the real terrorism anyway.
    I would say that US support for authoritarianism in the Middle East undermines democracy in the US.
    October 21 Norm Coleman: Former U.S. Senator Now Lobbyist and Agent for the Saudi Government
    Worse, the Saudis have already bribed the so-called “democracy” aka fake American fakers in Tunisia with hundreds of millions of real dollars. I wouldn’t be surprised if Israel is involved. 9/11?
    Saudi Arabia has pledged financial aid to Tunisia worth about $830 million (£659.5 million), Tunisian Prime Minister Youssef Chahed told reporters on Saturday after a visit to Saudi Arabia.

    Chahed said that $500 million was expected to finance the budget, $230 million to finance foreign trade and about $100 million to finance projects, without elaborating.

    Last month, Tunisians staged the first demonstrations in the Arab world against Saudi Arabia's crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman, on his visit to Tunisia, following the killing of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi.

    But the prince met with Tunisian President Beji Caid Essebsi to improve cooperation on the "economy and finance, investment promotion and security and military cooperation to counter extremism and terrorism" a presidency statement later said.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-t...-idUKKBN1OE0MY
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; October 24, 2021 at 05:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".
    “To live without faith, without a heritage to defend, without battling constantly for truth, is not to live but to ‘get along’; we must never just ‘get along’.” - Pier Giorgio Frassati

  4. #44

    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    I think you may have missed the real takeaway evidence of the neo-fascist white supremacist imperialist intention in Tunisia:
    from The Hill article you were quoting:
    "This support has allowed Tunisia to build a partial border wall with Libya to prevent smuggling of goods and people."

  5. #45
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    I think you may have missed the real takeaway evidence of the neo-fascist white supremacist imperialist intention in Tunisia:
    from The Hill article you were quoting:
    "This support has allowed Tunisia to build a partial border wall with Libya to prevent smuggling of goods and people."
    It's not really a wall.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liby...isia_relations

    Tunisia constructed a defensive line alongside its borders with Libya, a physical barrier composed of a system of obstacles, including sandbags protecting water-filled trenches dug about 2 meters deep, elevated observation towers, and fences. With the assistance of Germany and the US, Tunisia installed an electronic security surveillance along its completed barrier that spans almost half of the border's length, the surveillance system comprises unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) systems which are used to complement the camera-based security surveillance system. The remaining half of the borders south of Dehiba consists of a vast ocean of sand dunes which are monitored by Tunisian Army's GTS "(in French): Groupement Territorial Saharien", an army corps specialized in the Saharan environment, supported by aerial reconnaissance.

  6. #46

    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Every picture I've seen of it looks like this:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    It's better than just a wall, they've got a moat. Unfortunately no crocodiles though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  7. #47
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    The fantasy of Tunisian “democracy
    Thinking about it, I understand your reluctance to condemn Saed's seizure of power in Tunisia. Democracies are unpredictable, and may not want to serve the interests of foreign powers. In case of need, history shows that it’s easier to bribe/control an autocrat than a well-established democracy. In Afghanistan, maintained in power only by military force the much-vaunted "democratic" regime set up by the occupying forces in Afghanistan amounted to a political zero:it dissolved overnight as US/NATO troops were withdrawn.
    But keep trolling, I don't mind.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  8. #48

    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    I couldn’t agree more. The Tunisian so-called democracy is maintained in power by military force under a regime propped up by America, unpredictably serving foreign America’s interests in the war on terror. Were it not for the American puppet masters, the “democratic” Tunisian regime would amount to a political zero, evaporating in a fortnight if American support were withdrawn, like we saw happen in Afghanistan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".
    “To live without faith, without a heritage to defend, without battling constantly for truth, is not to live but to ‘get along’; we must never just ‘get along’.” - Pier Giorgio Frassati

  9. #49

    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Every picture I've seen of it looks like this:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    It's better than just a wall, they've got a moat. Unfortunately no crocodiles though.
    <confused>
    Building a border wall is if it is an actual wall is neo-fascist white supremacist racist very bad, terrible, no good etc....
    But if it is a rampart and moat, it is okay...

  10. #50
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    <confused>
    Building a border wall is if it is an actual wall is neo-fascist white supremacist racist very bad, terrible, no good etc....
    But if it is a rampart and moat, it is okay...
    Yes building a defensive line along your border with a country that has been unstable and in civil war since 2011 is a smart decision over building a useless border wall along a border that's 2700 km longer than Tunsia's relatively small 460 km border with Libya.

  11. #51
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    .Were it not for the American puppet masters, the “democratic” Tunisian regime would amount to a political zero
    That's what happened in Afghanistan, the "graveyard of empires".
    In Tunisia? not at all, not at all. Because-as Sarah Yerkes rightly put it, "the impetus for reform and the sustained public pressure on those in power came directly from the Tunisian people".
    Apart from that- as she said, even rhetorically, the United States has been muted in its support for political reform and good governance in most North African countries.
    -----
    It's a simple question: why don't condemn Tunisia's president for seizing complete executive power? why? aren't you a great defender of democracy?
    That's because- as someone has put it- greater democracy does not always translate into greater support for U.S. geo-strategic interests in the region? isn't true that Condoleezza Rice promised to break the pattern of 60 years during which the US supported stability in expense of democracy? what worries you most?
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  12. #52

    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    The so-called Revolution was backed by the US empire, as is the “democratic” government that took shape afterwards. As already cited, Tunisia is a failed state and its government is a den of corruption propped up by American cash and troops, like the formerly occupied Afghanistan. Yerkesian libertarian warmongers may claim to defend democracy, but the Tunisian people are not fooled by “democratic” CIA color revolutions. Thousands rallied to support Sultan Saied. Nearly 90% of the people support him in defiance of the American imperial empire.

    Quote Originally Posted by July
    According to the poll, 86 percent of Tunisians supported the decision to freeze parliament, while only 6 percent opposed it. Meanwhile, 88 percent supported the measure to strip parliament members of their immunity, while only 4 percent of the respondents opposed to the decision.

    The poll found that 84 percent of Tunisians supported the president’s decision to relieve Mechichi from his post, while 6 percent of the respondents opposed this decision.

    In regards to Saied’s announcement that he would govern alongside a new premier, 85 percent of the respondents expressed their support for this decision, while the percentage of those against the decision tallied to less than five percent.

    https://english.alarabiya.net/News/n...ed-s-decisions
    Quote Originally Posted by September
    Tunisian President Kais Saied continues to enjoy popular support from the electorate, with a recent poll showing 81% of Tunisians are favourable to the extension of the suspension of the Tunisian Parliament and the withdrawal of parliamentary immunity for MPs.

    https://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/...2f08efebc.html
    Most Tunisians say life was better before the Americans spread democracy to their country. With the help of the Taliban’s allies in Tunisia, they may yet be liberated from us.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; October 25, 2021 at 09:27 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".
    “To live without faith, without a heritage to defend, without battling constantly for truth, is not to live but to ‘get along’; we must never just ‘get along’.” - Pier Giorgio Frassati

  13. #53
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    .Tunisian President Kais Saied continues to enjoy popular support
    For how long, thats the question? if that it's true, it is unfortunate.This is how democracies die. (Even today, one in three Spaniards still back Franco). A pertinent question is - why are authoritarian leaders getting so popular?
    Saudi Arabia Says Backs Tunisia's Choices
    Egypt vows 'full support' for Tunisian president

    Ah Egypt! Saudi Arabia!
    Eight Years After Egypt's Uprising, a New Autocrat Is ...

    As the country marks the anniversary of the Tahrir Square protests, President Sisi is jailing dissidents, expanding censorship and perhaps looking to remain in power indefinitely
    2020 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices: Egypt

    That doesn't bother you? of course not.Even in the US those proposing autocracy over democracy are a significant part of the electorate.40% ?
    Anyway, the new Tunisian government is illegitimate because it did not gain the vote of confidence in parliament.

    Last edited by Ludicus; October 27, 2021 at 03:26 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  14. #54
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Political instability in Tunisia.

    Update.
    Some worry when democracy will return. Tunisia parliament calls on president to reverse unconstitutional decisions - 25 October
    the parliament's presidency called on lawmakers to defend their right to work by legitimate legal means and condemned trying officials before military and civilian courts, "there is no democracy without a free parliament".
    The EU insists, EU urges Tunisia's president to reopen parliament

    The EU is Tunisia’s first trade partner. Since 1995, Tunisia has been linked to the European Union by a free trade agreement within the framework of the Barcelona Process, which aims to create a highly integrated Euro-Mediterranean region The UfM presents its 1st Report on Euro-Mediterranean
    Meanwhile the EU is accused of wanting to institute a neo-colonial model that undermines Tunisia’s sovereignty in many areas. Those not familar with the French language: use google translate Accord de libre-échange avec l'UE : « L'Aleca renforcera la la dépendance de la Tunisie (2019)
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

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