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Thread: Original Sin and the Nature of Christ

  1. #1

    Default Original Sin and the Nature of Christ

    I wanted to explore this topic since it was brought up in the other thread.

    To summarize the main bodies of thought on this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiki
    Pelagianism is a heterodox Christian theological position that holds that the original sin did not taint human nature and that humans have the free will to achieve human perfection without divine grace.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wiki
    Augustine of Hippo (354–430) taught that Adam's sin[b] is transmitted by concupiscence, or "hurtful desire",[27][28] resulting in humanity becoming a massa damnata (mass of perdition, condemned crowd), with much enfeebled, though not destroyed, freedom of will.[4] When Adam sinned, human nature was thenceforth transformed. Adam and Eve, via sexual reproduction, recreated human nature. Their descendants now live in sin, in the form of concupiscence, a term Augustine used in a metaphysical, not a psychological sense. In Augustine's view (termed "Realism"), all of humanity was really present in Adam when he sinned, and therefore all have sinned. Original sin, according to Augustine, consists of the guilt of Adam which all humans inherit.
    From the outset, it’s fair to point out neither view is entirely Biblical. We know of course that humans cannot ever hope to achieve sinless perfection on their own, and that only the divine grace afforded by Jesus’ sacrifice can save us from condemnation for our disobedience to God. We also know sin itself cannot be inherent to one’s physical existence as a human, because Jesus was both God and man, he was “of the flesh,” tempted as we are, yet without sin. Paul himself alluded to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Romans 8
    There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hebrews 4
    14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
    15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Romans 1
    Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
    2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
    3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
    4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
    5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
    6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
    7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hebrews 2
    14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
    15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
    16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
    17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
    18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
    If Jesus was made “like his brethren” in every aspect of human nature, was tempted like us, and yet was without sin, it cannot be that humans are inherently sinful by virtue of being born. Yet we also know no one can achieve righteousness without Christ:

    Quote Originally Posted by Galatians 2
    16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

    18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

    19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

    20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
    While the Augustinian view is clearly closer to the Biblical truth, the extent of his theory is based purely on extrapolation from inference, rather than exegesis of the text. For example:

    Quote Originally Posted by Romans 5
    8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
    11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
    12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
    15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
    16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
    17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
    18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
    19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
    20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
    21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord
    Here Adam is directly contrasted to Christ. As Adam epitomizes disobedience to God, Christ is obedience. At the same time, as Paul says in verse 19, “many” (πολύς) in a context necessarily consistent with verse 12, “all” (πᾶς, see also 3:23), were led to disobedience and sin as a consequence of Adam’s choice and the knowledge of good and evil, so too are many led to justification through faith as a consequence of Jesus’ choice to sacrifice himself in accordance with God’s plan (John 3:16).

    It seems likely that Augustine sought to impute original sin as an appeal to consequence (what happens to dead babies, etc), but the Biblical answer is, we simply don’t know. We know that disobedience to God is condemnation to death, from which only faith in Jesus can save us. What that means for a human being that lacks the capability to disobey God is not explicitly known. We can infer things, knowing, for example, that sin does not come from God nor does he cause sin or lead anyone to temptation (James 1). But there is not concrete answer I can find, and no good can come of empty speculation regarding people we cannot know.

    I do think it is clear, however, that Jesus cannot have been born to original sin, nor can the act of sexual reproduction be inherently sinful in a way that would exclude Jesus from the concept of original sin, since Jesus was made “like his brethren in all things” despite being born of a virgin. One can see the Papist veneration of his mother Mary here as a logical inference of a vessel that would be capable of precluding Jesus from being born into inherently sinful flesh, consistent with Augustine’s theory. We also know God ordered man to be fruitful and multiply from the very beginning of creation, and he does not tempt nor cause anyone to sin, so procreative sex itself cannot be inherently sinful. Augustine’s premise of original sin by way of “concupiscence” is not Biblical.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; September 23, 2021 at 08:48 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".
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  2. #2
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Original Sin and the Nature of Christ

    Judging the original sin and theology in general exclusively from a "biblical" perspective is like trying to be an astronomer by looking through a keyhole.
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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Original Sin and the Nature of Christ

    The origin of sin was in Adam and Eve's not just disobedience but also being persuaded that God was not trustworthy in His words to them about eating from that tree. From that point every person inherited sin into their nature. That is what is written. Everyone falls short of the Glory of God.

    When it was time for God in Jesus Christ to come into the world it began Supernaturally with the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary to make sure that Christ couldn't be tainted in any way by Mary's sin. So, when He was born He was man/God, the only sinless Person on the planet whose blood was pure enough to satisfy both God and the Law. So it was that all the saints prior to His coming and dying for them it had been put to their account that He would do so and the same for all as yet unborn to be saved, after His crucifixion. That is what God's word tells. So yes, Jesus Christ may have been tempted because of His humanity but the fact is that He never gave in to any temptation whatsoever.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Original Sin and the Nature of Christ

    Why would a human being today be guilty of Adam and Eve's sin?
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    Default Re: Original Sin and the Nature of Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Why would a human being today be guilty of Adam and Eve's sin?
    PointOfViewGun,

    Because ole friend it's not about men or women rather God. We were created for God's good pleasure with the Godhead being the central Characters. Therefore the story is about a world plunged into sin where God intervenes in many cases until the point comes where His Son Jesus Christ takes on the form of a human whilst retaining His Godhood. He is the Rescuer told of in the garden and foretold by all the Prophets of God Who came into the world as the Only Person capable of paying God's price for sin. In consequence He fulfilled the plan by going on a cross as a sinner in my place and your place to make it possible for entry into heaven the day we are called out of this world. That sacrifice covered all time as we know it and so all those elected by Grace will be saved right up until the eve of His return. On that day all creation that we knew will be eradicated to be replaced by a new heaven and earth with Hell adjacent to it. The elect will go into this new creation whilst those that didn't believe in Jesus Christ will spend eternity in hell.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Original Sin and the Nature of Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    Because ole friend it's not about men or women rather God. We were created for God's good pleasure with the Godhead being the central Characters. Therefore the story is about a world plunged into sin where God intervenes in many cases until the point comes where His Son Jesus Christ takes on the form of a human whilst retaining His Godhood. He is the Rescuer told of in the garden and foretold by all the Prophets of God Who came into the world as the Only Person capable of paying God's price for sin. In consequence He fulfilled the plan by going on a cross as a sinner in my place and your place to make it possible for entry into heaven the day we are called out of this world. That sacrifice covered all time as we know it and so all those elected by Grace will be saved right up until the eve of His return. On that day all creation that we knew will be eradicated to be replaced by a new heaven and earth with Hell adjacent to it. The elect will go into this new creation whilst those that didn't believe in Jesus Christ will spend eternity in hell.
    Basically, you're saying that god created an arbitrary sin connection for all humans to save them from that arbitrary connection itself created. Another question is what was the price Jesus paid?
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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Original Sin and the Nature of Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Basically, you're saying that god created an arbitrary sin connection for all humans to save them from that arbitrary connection itself created. Another question is what was the price Jesus paid?
    PointOfViewGun,

    For Jesus to go on that cross He had to become something totally foreign to His nature, that is He became sin. He did that so that the elect could be on that cross with Him as their substitute and so the wrath of His Father could fall upon Him alone to absorb that wrath to the point of death which concluded the price as being paid in full for the elect. The Jews to make sure His body was not taken by the disciples they placed a guard at the tomb knowing that He was indeed dead. They knew of the three days of which Jesus told and so these guards stood to their posts as commanded. On the third day women came to anoint the body to find the guards gone and the tomb empty. He had indeed risen as over four hundred people were to witness over the next days. The guards who ran were bribed by the Jews to tell a different story.

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    Default Re: Original Sin and the Nature of Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Why would a human being today be guilty of Adam and Eve's sin?
    Why wouldn't a human be guilty of the ancestral sin? If a river is polluted upstream, the pollution does not suddenly disappear downstream. Your life flows from Adam and Eve, and because their life was corrupted by sin and mortality so is yours.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Original Sin and the Nature of Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    For Jesus to go on that cross He had to become something totally foreign to His nature, that is He became sin.
    How did Jesus become sin?
    Did Jesus not have the power to clean itself of sin once he became sin?


    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Why wouldn't a human be guilty of the ancestral sin? If a river is polluted upstream, the pollution does not suddenly disappear downstream. Your life flows from Adam and Eve, and because their life was corrupted by sin and mortality so is yours.
    Rivers are not analogous to humans in this context. Actions of one person does not say about the nature of an other. Are you advocating for collective guilt?
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    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Original Sin and the Nature of Christ

    Are you implying that the actions of one person cannot impact future generations?
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Original Sin and the Nature of Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Are you implying that the actions of one person cannot impact future generations?
    I think there’s a difference between actions having ripple effects vs inferring that actions become a kind of genetic disease.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Original Sin and the Nature of Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Are you implying that the actions of one person cannot impact future generations?
    We're not talking about impact though. We're talking about responsibility.
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    Default Re: Original Sin and the Nature of Christ

    Your dad killed someone, are you guilty of murder too?

    Obviously not, which is why original sin is a retarded concept.

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    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Original Sin and the Nature of Christ

    No but if my dad exposed himself to conditions that gave him a genetic disease, that disease will pass onto me as well. The church is a hospital for the soul, not a courthouse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    I think there’s a difference between actions having ripple effects vs inferring that actions become a kind of genetic disease.
    But the disease is visible for everyone to see. Through their actions Adam and Even cursed the human race to separation from God which means death and corruption, and that curse hangs over everyone. You don't bear the guild of that sin but you bear the consequences in their entirety.
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    Default Re: Original Sin and the Nature of Christ

    Guilt and responsibility are not the same as a disease.

    And your dad shouldn't be exposing himself to people, Adrian, it's unbecoming of a man of his age.

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    Default Re: Original Sin and the Nature of Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    No but if my dad exposed himself to conditions that gave him a genetic disease, that disease will pass onto me as well. The church is a hospital for the soul, not a courthouse.

    But the disease is visible for everyone to see. Through their actions Adam and Even cursed the human race to separation from God which means death and corruption, and that curse hangs over everyone. You don't bear the guild of that sin but you bear the consequences in their entirety.
    So, you support collective guilt?
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    Default Re: Original Sin and the Nature of Christ

    PointOfViewGun,

    In answer to your question above it came about very quickly that mankind had turned to violence and so a family of eight made righteous before God were saved from a flood that killed off all mankind apart from them. That was collective guilt and it will be seen again when God our Saviour returns not just to flood the planet rather to extinguish it altogether and replace it by a completely new creation. Millions will be saved but billions will not, why? Yes even those killed in the flood will join the rest of unbelievers in eternal torment.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Original Sin and the Nature of Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    In answer to your question above it came about very quickly that mankind had turned to violence and so a family of eight made righteous before God were saved from a flood that killed off all mankind apart from them. That was collective guilt and it will be seen again when God our Saviour returns not just to flood the planet rather to extinguish it altogether and replace it by a completely new creation. Millions will be saved but billions will not, why? Yes even those killed in the flood will join the rest of unbelievers in eternal torment.
    Basically, you are OK with being guilty of an action that you had no part in deciding in any shape or form. You should not be confused with the distinction between being guilty of something and getting involved in someone else's punishment. Where does it say that all those people that died in the flood were sinners deserving of hell?
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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Original Sin and the Nature of Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Basically, you are OK with being guilty of an action that you had no part in deciding in any shape or form. You should not be confused with the distinction between being guilty of something and getting involved in someone else's punishment. Where does it say that all those people that died in the flood were sinners deserving of hell?
    PointOfViewGun,

    What I am OK with is that I was a sinner saved by the blood of Jesus Christ shed on a cross for not just me but for everybody else who is born again of the Spirit of God. My sin came by my parents who got it from theirs all the way back to Adam. If I was to claim that I was not worthy of being guilty of sin I would be a liar. Now concerning the flood read Genesis 6: 5-8. Jesus Christ, when He comes back will find the same conditions in man as was in the days before the flood. See Mathew 24:37-39.

    So the picture we get of the garden in Eden is obviously special because it reflects what like heaven will be for those that know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. Once the curse took effect not one sinner then was allowed into it and it was withdrawn from off the earth. The only way back in is by Jesus Christ.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Original Sin and the Nature of Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    What I am OK with is that I was a sinner saved by the blood of Jesus Christ shed on a cross for not just me but for everybody else who is born again of the Spirit of God. My sin came by my parents who got it from theirs all the way back to Adam. If I was to claim that I was not worthy of being guilty of sin I would be a liar.
    These are all arbitrary points of logic that makes absolutely no sense. It's not about worth. This concept you're banking on is contradicted by the Bible as well.

    Ezekial 18:
    The word of the Lord came to me: “What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:

    “‘The parents eat sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge’?

    “As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.

    “Suppose there is a righteous man who does what is just and right. He does not eat at the mountain shrines or look to the idols of Israel. He does not defile his neighbor’s wife or have sexual relations with a woman during her period. He does not oppress anyone, but returns what he took in pledge for a loan. He does not commit robbery but gives his food to the hungry and provides clothing for the naked. He does not lend to them at interest or take a profit from them. He withholds his hand from doing wrong and judges fairly between two parties. He follows my decrees and faithfully keeps my laws. That man is righteous; he will surely live, declares the Sovereign Lord.

    “Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other things[a] 11 (though the father has done none of them):

    “He eats at the mountain shrines. He defiles his neighbor’s wife. He oppresses the poor and needy. He commits robbery. He does not return what he took in pledge. He looks to the idols. He does detestable things. He lends at interest and takes a profit.

    Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he is to be put to death; his blood will be on his own head.

    “But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things:

    “He does not eat at the mountain shrines or look to the idols of Israel. He does not defile his neighbor’s wife. He does not oppress anyone or require a pledge for a loan. He does not commit robbery but gives his food to the hungry and provides clothing for the naked. He withholds his hand from mistreating the poor and takes no interest or profit from them. He keeps my laws and follows my decrees.

    He will not die for his father’s sin; he will surely live. 18 But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people.

    “Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

    “But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

    “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.

    “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die. 29 Yet the Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

    “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!
    Nowhere there does god invoke the arbitrary rule that a god must fake kill itself to save humans from a collective sin itself declared to be present in everyone regardless of their involvement in the action that created the sin.


    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Now concerning the flood read Genesis 6: 5-8. Jesus Christ, when He comes back will find the same conditions in man as was in the days before the flood. See Mathew 24:37-39.
    This is a very problematic passage. God regrets. That doesn't sit well with its omniscient and omnipotent nature. However, within the context of the Bible, this passage doesn't make a tie to the original sin. Hence, it was wrong of you to invoke the passage to justify prolongation of the original sin.
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