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Thread: [Amendment] Section 3 - Article I

  1. #61
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section 3 - Article I

    Rewards and medals are revoked in both the real and the digital world, on a not very infrequent basis, so I don't understand how our perception of the citizenship is relevant to the debate.
    I do not believe you.

    When was the last time someone's award was revoked?

    I mean, even Parafix has the award he cheated to get, does he not?

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  2. #62
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section 3 - Article I

    Opposed

    The amendment doesn't say what would happen if an appeal made within 72 hours gets denied or thrown out. Do they automatically get a free pass? Praetorium appeals are also not public so nothing there would be available for curial decision making as a matter of course.

    As far as I'm concerned the existing point limit of 1 is just fine and none of the comments in this thread have convinced me of the need for the amendment to be honest.
    Last edited by Tango12345; September 23, 2021 at 09:07 AM.

  3. #63
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section 3 - Article I

    The amendment doesn't say what would happen if an appeal made within 72 hours gets denied or thrown out. Do they automatically get a free pass? Praetorium appeals are also not public so nothing there would be available for curial decision making.
    Do they already have an infraction? If so, they would then have their citizenship suspended. Do they have no infractions? Then nothing would happen until they get their second one.

    Infractions under appeal
    It says infractions under appeal, which means once it's denied or thrown out it's no longer under appeal.

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  4. #64
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section 3 - Article I

    Your wording is more ambiguous than you intended then and can very easily be read as the exemption being permanent in that the decision/action point for no further action would already have been reached. If you really want to keep that wording then you should add 'until the appeal is completed' after the words 'further action' or a similiar clarification.

    Alternatively you could completely rewrite that bit and talk about pausing any further action until the completion of the appeal rather than using the word exempt. That is rather less ambiguous.

    Or not, considering I'll likely end up opposing this anyway it wouldn't change much.
    Last edited by Tango12345; September 23, 2021 at 09:44 AM.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section 3 - Article I

    Why did you close this thread?

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section 3 - Article I

    Did I? Apologies, must have been a fat fingers issue on my phone. If I were to effectively veto something I would have the decency to say so.
    Last edited by Tango12345; September 23, 2021 at 09:56 AM.

  7. #67
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section 3 - Article I

    I was hoping that was the case , thanks for clearing it up.

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  8. #68
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section 3 - Article I

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Why did you close this thread?
    Why have you not withdrawn the proposal? Abdulmecid's post demonstrated it is based on the misunderstanding that people can get infracted for trivialities. Or is there another motivation or objective you'd like us to consider?
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  9. #69
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section 3 - Article I

    Why have you not withdrawn the proposal?
    Why would I?

    I do not believe that his post demonstrated anything that would change the objective of this amendment, which is to increase the threshold by which a user's citizenship is suspended by default.

    I do not think a single infraction rises to that level, regardless of Abdul's opinion.

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  10. #70
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section 3 - Article I

    Indeed, this proposal is not changing in any way the mechanics of the automatic suspension system, it's just making it slightly less strict
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section 3 - Article I

    Except that Abdül demonstrated it is not being made "slightly less strict" but rather ridiculously lax, in as much as you could be a repeat offender with half a dozen violations before the citizenry deigns to act on it.
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  12. #72
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section 3 - Article I

    That's demonstrably false, though. You can't have more than 1 active infraction before your citizenship is suspended under this new proposed system. I don't know how you expect someone to rack up a "half dozen violations" without getting more than one infraction.

    It is not up to the citizenry to act on it in this case, we're not talking about an Ostrakon here. The action is taken immediately by the Consul once the citizen has more than one active infraction.

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  13. #73
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section 3 - Article I

    Ah, I had overlooked the restriction to 1 point before suspension. I stand corrected then on "half a dozen", though one point is still someone who broke the same rule at least twice. I would expect from a citizen to get the message the first time with the point-less (mind the hyphen!) note.

    As for "action taken", establishing an automatism by amendment is still the citizenry acting. Whether action is taken "manually" on a case by case basis or "automatically" by implementing a rule is of no importance to the question that it is the citizenry's agency at work in suspending citizenship (or not).
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  14. #74

    Default Re: [Amendment] Section 3 - Article I

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Why have you not withdrawn the proposal? Abdulmecid's post demonstrated it is based on the misunderstanding that people can get infracted for trivialities. Or is there another motivation or objective you'd like us to consider?
    People can, and are, issued infractions for "trivialities" (that being behaviour not worthy of Citizen suspension). This is one of the reasons why ~25% of appeals are granted in the Tribunal. More importantly, Moderation itself recognizes that not all infractions are equal. This is why there is a points based system in which functional consequences are absent unless a user accrues a significant number points. The purpose of a single point infraction is to act as a warning for minor/soft offenses. If Citizen standards are going to be integrated into Moderation action, it is rational that they should be integrated in accordance with this system. I understand that Moderation isn't going to support an amendment which limits their influence, even if it doesn't actually separate them from exercising control over the Curia.
    Last edited by Cope; September 23, 2021 at 12:18 PM.



  15. #75
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section 3 - Article I

    For the good of the site I suggest that Hex vetoes this if it does manage to ignominiously pass. Opposed.
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section 3 - Article I

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Why would I?

    I do not believe that his post demonstrated anything that would change the objective of this amendment, which is to increase the threshold by which a user's citizenship is suspended by default.

    I do not think a single infraction rises to that level, regardless of Abdul's opinion.
    Ok, at least we know where we stand then. This has nothing to do with infractions given for trivialities. It really is about lowering the standards of behaviour. E.g. you think people citizens should be able to hold on to their badge even if after the initial warnings Abdulmecid mentioned people get infracted not once, but twice for things like defying moderation or insulting people.
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  17. #77
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section 3 - Article I

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    For the good of the site I suggest that Hex vetoes this if it does manage to ignominiously pass. Opposed.
    No mandatory suspension rule existed prior to a year or two ago and there was no issue.

    but twice for things like defying moderation or insulting people.
    I urge you to re-read the amendment once again. There is an automatic suspension issued after the second infraction.

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  18. #78
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section 3 - Article I

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    I urge you to re-read the amendment once again. There is an automatic suspension issued after the second infraction.
    Indeed. I guess I'd better re state one point: this amendment is not changing in any way the actual system, it just give Citizens in trouble an extra opportunity to improve.

    Now this is purely a matter of where one believes the bar has to be put, someone wants it higher, someone wants it lower, that's normal, and the majority will win as usual, but please stop addressing this like if it is trying to destroy the fabulous higher standards (that for so long have failed all of us, both with Staff/Citizen referrals and Ostrakons), that's simply false and quite hypocritical, honestly.
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section 3 - Article I

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    For the good of the site I suggest that Hex vetoes this if it does manage to ignominiously pass. Opposed.
    My personal opinion on setting the bar aside, I will rebuke this advocacy for hex to overreach (not in permissions perhaps, but in spirit). If the citizenry want to raise the number, lower the bar whatever, that is their business and what the citizens do among themselves has had little to do with 'the good of the site' for some time. A lot of this issue is semantic. Disagreement is one thing, comments like this are just another part of the problem. Don't like it, act strictly as a citizen and oppose, or continue the fad of resigning citizenship in protest since it will have clearly gone past your personal desires.
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  20. #80
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section 3 - Article I

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    Indeed. I guess I'd better re state one point: this amendment is not changing in any way the actual system, it just give Citizens in trouble an extra opportunity to improve.

    Now this is purely a matter of where one believes the bar has to be put, someone wants it higher, someone wants it lower, that's normal, and the majority will win as usual, but please stop addressing this like if it is trying to destroy the fabulous higher standards (that for so long have failed all of us, both with Staff/Citizen referrals and Ostrakons), that's simply false and quite hypocritical, honestly.
    I respectfully disagree. Whether you never allow a certain behaviour or whether you allow it once is not an incremental change, but a categorical one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Commodus View Post
    My personal opinion on setting the bar aside, I will rebuke this advocacy for hex to overreach (not in permissions perhaps, but in spirit). If the citizenry want to raise the number, lower the bar whatever, that is their business and what the citizens do among themselves has had little to do with 'the good of the site' for some time. A lot of this issue is semantic. Disagreement is one thing, comments like this are just another part of the problem. Don't like it, act strictly as a citizen and oppose, or continue the fad of resigning citizenship in protest since it will have clearly gone past your personal desires.
    I get your point, but there is another angle, which is that if Hex decides a change is such that the whole system of Citizenship is no longer of value to the site, it has the choice to veto the change or get rid of it altogether.

    As Abdulmecid pointed out, in terms of behaviour, this decision allows citizens to be below par relative to the entire membership. How can you then defend their status as respected and privileged members? Surely it must make members indifferent or quite possibly resentful.
    Last edited by Muizer; September 24, 2021 at 08:05 AM.
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