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Thread: Secession or civil war - how does the game decide?

  1. #1
    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default Secession or civil war - how does the game decide?

    Secessions and civil wars involve a rival party or parties breaking away from your faction. They are different - for example, a secession protects the player from further secessions or civil wars for a fixed number of turns; a civil war protects the player from these events until the civil war ends. When you get a civil war, there's a cut-scene video (with two lions fighting each other) at the start, and another (with only one lion) at the end.

    Knowing how the game decides whether it's a secession or civil war could be useful. Sometimes players who want the 'The Die is Cast' achievement ask how to cause a civil war (as opposed to a secession).A player might want to use the fact that you're protected from further secessions and civil wars for as long as a civil war continues, by allowing the break-away faction in a civil war to survive.

    I've seen different theories about how - when a rival party/parties break away - the game decides whether it's a secession or a civil war. Some players said that, if one rival party breaks away it's a secession, while if two (or more) break away it's a civil war. Others suggested that, if the rival party/parties have less than 50% influence, it's a secession, and if they have more than 50%, it's a civil war.

    How do you think the game decides whether it's secession or civil war? Has anyone been able to find anything in the game's files which provides a definite answer?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Secession or civil war - how does the game decide?

    I thought the difference was just the number of parties rebelling. By the time a party decides to secede, I've already got at least 75% influence, so the remaining 25% is split amongst the other parties. So maybe multiple parties are needed to gather enough influence to trigger that 50% theory?

  3. #3
    Jake Armitage's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Secession or civil war - how does the game decide?

    Secession and civil war are 2 different mechanics.
    I think they run through 2 different hardcoded codes.
    for example... if you would like to mod them, for civil war you have just some campaign variables while there is some moddable lua stuff regarding secessions.
    Hence, the % of having them should run through different stuff.
    In theory, it should be possible to have them in the same time (if CA didn't put a boolean limitation).

    Civil war depends on an hardcoded weighted random roll and it's affected by imperium level, mostly
    Secession has party virtual point curves (loyalty) that will start producing weighted rolls after you reach -10 loyalty with 1 party at least

    For what I remember civil war spawn a sort of new faction (you can link it through db) while secession takes 1 of your parties and will assign armies and regions already owned by that party (more or less).
    Last edited by Jake Armitage; September 12, 2021 at 12:08 PM.

  4. #4
    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default Re: Secession or civil war - how does the game decide?

    Thanks, LuckyPistol, I thought it was about one party (secession) or multiple parties (civil war) too. However I've seen people saying that it's something else.

    I need to test this - create situations where one rival party (with over 50% influence) breaks away, and where more than one party (with a combined influence of less than 50%) break away, and see what happens. Even then, if the game decides whether it's secession or civil war with a dice roll, that test won't be conclusive - so if anyone else is willing to test this and to post what happens on this thread, that would be really helpful. If I remember correctly, in my civil war as Carthage, two rival parties broke away and they had (combined) slightly over 50% loyalty, so that would fit with either theory.

    Thanks, Jake Armitage, I agree that secession and civil war aren't the same thing. They used to be separate systems before Power and Politics; I don't think they are completely separate anymore. While I could be wrong - when you discuss civil wars, it sounds like you're describing the politics system before the Power and Politics Update.

    In my Carthage campaign, when rival parties had below -10 loyalty, a percentage chance of civil war was shown in the top left of the politics screen. In other words, the chance of civil war was based on weighted rolls that happened after rival parties were below -10 loyalty - the same way that secession works. The differences were that the game warned of a percentage chance of 'civil war' (not a percentage chance of 'secession'); when it began a cutscene with two lions fighting was displayed (this doesn't happen with a secession) and I was protected from further secessions/civil wars 'until the civil war ended' (not for a fixed number of turns).

    Yes, Imperium is a factor in the chance of party/parties breaking away (higher Imperium levels have a penalty for party loyalty). I don't know if higher Imperium increases the chance of civil war (as opposed to secession).

    I agree that, in a secession, a rival party breaks away and gets regions and armies owned by that party. You said that, in a civil war, a new faction will spawn. When I had a civil war as Carthage, two (if I remember correctly) of my rival parties broke away and were assigned regions and armies owned by those rival parties - as with the percentage chance of breaking away, the civil war mechanic now works in a similar way to the secession mechanic. My experience is consistent with the Power & Politics patch notes:

    In case of a secession or civil war, the new faction that spawns will control the provinces that were included in the areas of influence of the seceding parties.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Secession or civil war - how does the game decide?

    These are in my opinion important things to do to prepare for a either inevitable or nearly inevitable civil war ( specially when you are about to switch from KingDom or Republic to Empire when you play as Rome or a Greek or Macedonian faction in Grand Campaign ):

    - When you are ready for opening the Empire mode ( because you already have the requirements ), first make sure that there isn't any army nor navy commanded by generals/admirals from rival parties. If there are any, give all their units to generals/admirals from your party ( And disband those generals/admirals from those other parties or substitute them with characters from your party ). And in case it's not possible that all the generals and admirals are from your party, then at least grab the best units for you and leave the weakest/less experienced units to generals/admirals from rival parties. But there is something you can do in order to increase the odds that you always or almost always have available candidates from your party to be generals/admirals:

    - Right from the start of the campaign try to extend your family tree ( And the "other Nobles" tree as well ) and always promote all of them ( At least the free promotion ) so that they over time acquire the needed gravitas a bit faster so that they are able to get marry. Check your party's tree in most turns. The faster they acquiere gravitas, the faster they can marry. And the faster they can marry, the more likely you'd have available candidates from your party to be generals/admirals. Don't let any character ( both men and women ) from your party spend too much time without getting married.

    - Before you open the Empire mode, check what provinces are controlled by rival parties: remove all the miltary recruitment/training buildings from those provinces so that when the civil war breaks out the separatists don't have immediate access to the best units. Also remove the military ports so that they can't recruit strong war ships immediately. And demolishing fortified walled cities is useful, too. Downgrade them to level 1 so that they become easier to take them in a city assault battle.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Secession or civil war - how does the game decide?

    Others suggested that, if the rival party/parties have less than 50% influence, it's a secession, and if they have more than 50%, it's a civil war.
    I'm in a current Grand Campaign as Rome. When I switched from Republic to Empire, I had 90% of influence. No secession nor civil war broke out at the moment of the opening of the Empire mode. Maybe when you have a big control of the Senate, the rival parties don't dare to provoke a civil war nor secession. I don't know if having all the Philosophy technologies had some effect on as well ( I alreay had all the philosophy technologies when I opened the Empire mode )

    How did I get 90 % of influence? By not promoting any character from any rival party anymore and by carring out the special political action for gaining more influence that some of my characters had
    Last edited by twgamer20197; June 07, 2022 at 06:10 AM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Secession or civil war - how does the game decide?

    I think I found out something in the Divide et Impera mod:
    All political rival parties suddenly rebel (even if their loyalty was ok ) even if just one party rebels. I don't know if the mod makers removed secessions or if it's because of certain causes. One possibility is that the rest of the rival parties follow the example of a party because of their big influence they have in the Senate. That means if there is just one rival party that is in big danger of rebelling but the rest are ok in loyalty and all have a significant influence, you should take measures with all parties. Maybe they ( the rival parties which loyalty are ok ) won't rebel if they have just little influence. I still have to find out that.

    My advice would be this:
    If you didn't have any secession nor civil war yet in your campaign ( specially in the early stage ) but the loyalty of all or even just one party is very bad and you see it is very hard to fix that problem because you want to spend your money on other things ( and not in political actions to try to improve their loyalty ), then the best thing is not trying to avoid the secession or civil war at all. And instead it is better to try to gain more influence if there are still enough number of turns ( before the protection expires ) for taking measures: such as trying the political action of "seeeking support" which increases influence by 2%. Promote and send to missions only to characters from your party. By gaining more influence, the less provinces the rival parties would control.
    Try to replace the generals/admirals from the rival parties as well
    Last edited by twgamer20197; May 12, 2023 at 09:09 AM.

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