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Thread: Cyprus: Teachers asked to tear out controversial page from schoolbooks.

  1. #41

    Default Re: Cyprus: Teachers asked to tear out controversial page from schoolbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    I wasn't "alluding" to just that battle, in fact I didn't even mention it. Admit it, you simply didn't know that Kemal was commander in chief back then and now trying to climb out of the hole your previous post created. Like I said, even his wikipedia pages proves that he partook in war crimes.
    What a lovely example of projection. Your initial linked talked about the Battle of Marash which was concluded in February 1920. It's from your own source. Then you pointed out yourself that he was commander in chief August 2021, about 18 months after the battle. By your logic, for the sake of your argument, he was not responsible for anything claimed about Cilicia.

    About Wikipedia, are you referring to these passages?
    In spite of Turkish animosity against the Greeks, Atatürk resisted the pressures of historic enmities and was sensitive towards past tensions; at one point, he ordered the removal of a painting showing a Turkish soldier plunging his bayonet into a Greek soldier by stating, "What a revolting scene!"[199]
    Greek Premier Ioannis Metaxas once stated, with regard to Atatürk, that "...Greece, which has the highest estimation of the renowned leader, heroic soldier, and enlightened creator of Turkey. We will never forget that President Atatürk was the true founder of the Turkish-Greek alliance based on a framework of common ideals and peaceful cooperation. He developed ties of friendship between the two nations which it would be unthinkable to dissolve. Greece will guard its fervent memories of this great man, who determined an unalterable future path for the noble Turkish nation."[202]
    The Armenian Issue

  2. #42

    Default Re: Cyprus: Teachers asked to tear out controversial page from schoolbooks.

    He was still a officer during that battle, men under whose command committed war crimes. Commander in chief granted him virtually control over whole army, but he still controlled troops before that as well, as he did when he fought for Ottomans.
    And I don't even understand why are you even picking that hill, since he committed war crimes before and after attaining that position. He even sent warning to foreign nations proudly asserting that he has "no responsibility" even though he was commander and chief (Germans tried to pull that excuse in Nuremburg and it didn't work). In fact, you kinda quoted the post that had this, so you must have read it and still continued to argue for the opposite. That's so in bad faith, even by standards your posts have shown.

  3. #43

    Default Re: Cyprus: Teachers asked to tear out controversial page from schoolbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    He was still a officer during that battle, men under whose command committed war crimes. Commander in chief granted him virtually control over whole army, but he still controlled troops before that as well, as he did when he fought for Ottomans.
    And I don't even understand why are you even picking that hill, since he committed war crimes before and after attaining that position. He even sent warning to foreign nations proudly asserting that he has "no responsibility" even though he was commander and chief (Germans tried to pull that excuse in Nuremburg and it didn't work). In fact, you kinda quoted the post that had this, so you must have read it and still continued to argue for the opposite. That's so in bad faith, even by standards your posts have shown.
    I'm not sure how to respond to this incoherence. You still seem to think that Atatürk was present in the Battle of Marash. He was not there as its been pointed out before. Your attempts to obfuscate different points of time with different regions of Anatolia is a self-defeating form of argumentation. I pointed out why I picked that hill and the collapse of the logic you use seems to be decisive. The premise you put forward for your accusation of bad faith is entirely devoid of logic and coherence.

    So, humor us. Which exact war crime did he commit? Where and when? How?
    The Armenian Issue

  4. #44

    Default Re: Cyprus: Teachers asked to tear out controversial page from schoolbooks.

    War crimes were committed by troops under Kemal's command, before and after the became commander in chief. Kemal was a war criminal by any conventional standard. Which is why removing commemoration to "him as "great person" on a Greek island makes a lot of sense, especially since his victims were Greek people as well as Armenians.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Cyprus: Teachers asked to tear out controversial page from schoolbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    War crimes were committed by troops under Kemal's command, before and after the became commander in chief. Kemal was a war criminal by any conventional standard. Which is why removing commemoration to "him as "great person" on a Greek island makes a lot of sense, especially since his victims were Greek people as well as Armenians.
    You have no idea who, where, when and how his troops killed civilians, don't you?
    The Armenian Issue

  6. #46

    Default Re: Cyprus: Teachers asked to tear out controversial page from schoolbooks.

    I posted links to 2 articles that literally detail how troops under his command committed war crimes and even he himself acknowledged it when he addressed the press about it. You even quoted the post that cited the latter. Again, it is patently obvious that your posts are in bad faith and it just looks bad at this point.

  7. #47

    Default Re: Cyprus: Teachers asked to tear out controversial page from schoolbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    I posted links to 2 articles that literally detail how troops under his command committed war crimes and even he himself acknowledged it when he addressed the press about it. You even quoted the post that cited the latter. Again, it is patently obvious that your posts are in bad faith and it just looks bad at this point.
    Hmmm, you're referring to Armenian propagandist link from Armenian National Institute, which didn't really detail anything but made sweeping allegations while you ended up contradicting its content, and the Wikipedia quote that merely established when he was made commander in chief? Remember your claim about how his own page on Wikipedia detailed his crimes but the actual page didn't contain any such information? Good faith is not an infinite resource. You have depleted it already by lying about basic stuff. His statement to the press (which we don't know whether autenthic or not as its coming from the NYT known to be a source of forged news pieces at the time), pointing out that ethnic violence begets ethnic violence is not an acknowledgement of anything that you're pointing at.
    The Armenian Issue

  8. #48

    Default Re: Cyprus: Teachers asked to tear out controversial page from schoolbooks.

    Wikipedia quote collaborated what ANI said, and also mentioned how Kemal himself admitted that war crimes are happening and you even quoted that post. Why are you even arguing at this point? While he has a strange creepy cult of personality in Turkey, civilized countries view genocidal lunatics like Kemal, Lenin and Pol Pot rather negatively for a reason.

  9. #49

    Default Re: Cyprus: Teachers asked to tear out controversial page from schoolbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Wikipedia quote collaborated what ANI said, and also mentioned how Kemal himself admitted that war crimes are happening and you even quoted that post. Why are you even arguing at this point? While he has a strange creepy cult of personality in Turkey, civilized countries view genocidal lunatics like Kemal, Lenin and Pol Pot rather negatively for a reason.
    Merely repeating the same claims that have already been addressed doesn't make up an argument. It merely shows how meritless your position is.
    The Armenian Issue

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Cyprus: Teachers asked to tear out controversial page from schoolbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Citation needed. The extension to 1923 is deliberately done by Greek and Armenian propagandists to include modern Turkey and it's Atatürk in the genocide charges. It's a rare case of losers writing history.
    Yes, the extension to 1923 is done by the people that have faced genocide till 1923 once the Great Powers got Syria (and thus stopping the massacres of Assyrians) from the Ottomans.
    Why should I give a citation when you explain it right after asking the citation?

    Anyway, here's one I grabbed from Wikipedia: http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP5.HTM
    "In this post-WWI period the Turks killed overall probably 878,000 Armenians and Greeks, or at least 665,000 and even perhaps as many as 1,156,000 in total (line 435)."

    Now, divide that by three because it's quite ludicrous, and you have alhoon's estimation out of his deeeeeep understanding of history of 250-300K dead Armenians and Greeks post WWI.

    Following that totally legit and reliable source, we get to the conclusion:
    "Finally, in the remainder of the table I calculate the democide rates for the Young Turks (lines 636 to 637) and the local Nationalists (lines 640 to 641). Per year the Young Turks killed almost 1 out of every 100 of their population (line 637). The Nationalists, however, were far more vicious. For the population they controlled they murdered 1 out of every 38 per year (line 641)."

    So, there you have it! If we ignore the weird numbers that would have us think that more or less every death from 1919 to 1923 was a result of Kemal's guys killing people (if you read the tables, he makes an estimation of how many Muslim Turks they killed) ignoring food disruptions, disease and other hardships of a collapsing state or people fleeing and not informing their current census office they were fleeing across the border... our reliable source paints a clear picture:
    Kemal's nationalists were about 3 times as violent as the Young Turks.


    Look, all jokes aside, the Nationalists were considered by our historians to be about as bad as the Young Turks. They killed less of us because less of us were around to be killed.
    Here you can see a more reliable estimation: 260K dead by Turkish forces during Kemal's time. Nureddin Pasha is said to have killed ~12K Greeks, many of his crimes are recorded and I didn't see Kemal executing him.
    Last edited by alhoon; September 13, 2021 at 06:04 PM.
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  11. #51

    Default Re: Cyprus: Teachers asked to tear out controversial page from schoolbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Yes, the extension to 1923 is done by the people that have faced genocide till 1923 once the Great Powers got Syria (and thus stopping the massacres of Assyrians) from the Ottomans.
    Why should I give a citation when you explain it right after asking the citation?

    Anyway, here's one I grabbed from Wikipedia: http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP5.HTM
    "In this post-WWI period the Turks killed overall probably 878,000 Armenians and Greeks, or at least 665,000 and even perhaps as many as 1,156,000 in total (line 435)."

    Now, divide that by three because it's quite ludicrous, and you have alhoon's estimation out of his deeeeeep understanding of history of 250-300K dead Armenians and Greeks post WWI.

    Following that totally legit and reliable source, we get to the conclusion:
    "Finally, in the remainder of the table I calculate the democide rates for the Young Turks (lines 636 to 637) and the local Nationalists (lines 640 to 641). Per year the Young Turks killed almost 1 out of every 100 of their population (line 637). The Nationalists, however, were far more vicious. For the population they controlled they murdered 1 out of every 38 per year (line 641)."

    So, there you have it! If we ignore the weird numbers that would have us think that more or less every death from 1919 to 1923 was a result of Kemal's guys killing people (if you read the tables, he makes an estimation of how many Muslim Turks they killed) ignoring food disruptions, disease and other hardships of a collapsing state or people fleeing and not informing their current census office they were fleeing across the border... our reliable source paints a clear picture:
    Kemal's nationalists were about 3 times as violent as the Young Turks.

    Look, all jokes aside, the Nationalists were considered by our historians to be about as bad as the Young Turks. They killed less of us because less of us were around to be killed.
    Here you can see a more reliable estimation: 260K dead by Turkish forces during Kemal's time. Nureddin Pasha is said to have killed ~12K Greeks, many of his crimes are recorded and I didn't see Kemal executing him.
    Where do I explain that? You don't even need to be aware of what I asked citation for. I specifically asked for Atatürk's statement that you claimed over. You give me a link that doesn't even refer to Atatürk.

    Yet, your link is the worst one you could come up with. It starts with this gem:
    The infamy of executing this century's first full scale ethnic cleansing belongs to Turkey's Young Turk government during World War I. In their highest councils Turkish leaders decided to exterminate every Armenian in the country, whether a front-line soldier or pregnant woman, famous professor or high bishop, important businessman or ardent patriot. All 2,000,000 of them.
    Not even most religious genocide claimers argue that. But then, I read this and I'm confused:
    Then there are the third-party reports, commentaries, and studies, published during World War I. Since Turkey fought on the side of Germany, it was in the interest of the French and British, who during the war years widely disseminated anti-German propaganda, to put the worst face on events in Turkey. Moreover, Armenians themselves may have falsified high level Turkish documents and reports on the killing in order to win sympathy and support for restoration, reparations, or the independence of Armenia.
    Then, again, in the next paragraph he gives credit to a trial that made use of those forgeries he points at above. That's one confused article. There is no primary research there. If you look at his table the numbers all coming from the usual suspects. Since he did no primary research the US document showing 376k Armenians in Turkey and 818k Armenians from pre-WWI Ottoman territories outside of Turkey in 1922 is not present in the appropriate sections. You're gonna excuse me if I find it not trust worthy. Your "reliable source is a joke. The Wikipedia link relies on Rummel as well. It only shows how unreliable it also is.

    Remember that we were discussing your claim that "He told the Euros that Turks would be butchering Greeks in reprisals for what we have done to their civilians" ? Where is the citation for that.
    The Armenian Issue

  12. #52
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    Default Re: Cyprus: Teachers asked to tear out controversial page from schoolbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Remember that we were discussing your claim that "He told the Euros that Turks would be butchering Greeks in reprisals for what we have done to their civilians" ? Where is the citation for that.
    No, we are not. We are discussing whether Turks butchered Greeks during Kemal's time in power and whether he is partially responsible for that, either by giving the thumbs up, or by refusing to reign in his commanders.

    I fully admit the link smells veeery funny but it was the one I randomly clicked and this guy that wrote it is considered reliable. From the article, I can't say that I was impressed but that's for the other thread about the Armenian Genocide scholars.
    However, I found another link that shows one of the commanders During Kemal's reign that was confirmed to have killed a great many Greek civilians (and a religious leader).


    Where do I explain that?
    Where you explain that losers wrote history in this case. And I told you that yes, the people kicked out of their ancestral lands brought with them the stories the Western scholars put in history.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  13. #53

    Default Re: Cyprus: Teachers asked to tear out controversial page from schoolbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    No, we are not. We are discussing whether Turks butchered Greeks during Kemal's time in power and whether he is partially responsible for that, either by giving the thumbs up, or by refusing to reign in his commanders.

    I fully admit the link smells veeery funny but it was the one I randomly clicked and this guy that wrote it is considered reliable. From the article, I can't say that I was impressed but that's for the other thread about the Armenian Genocide scholars.
    However, I found another link that shows one of the commanders During Kemal's reign that was confirmed to have killed a great many Greek civilians (and a religious leader).

    Where you explain that losers wrote history in this case. And I told you that yes, the people kicked out of their ancestral lands brought with them the stories the Western scholars put in history.
    Sigh.. alhoon... You are obfuscating too many things here. You did make a claim about Atatürk make a statement. You seem to be backtracking from showing what he actually said. Who considers Rummel reliable? Wikipedia (as in your other link)? What's the only source of your Nurettin Pasha in your Wiki link? Taner Akçam. A well-known propagandist who has a beef with the Turkish state for being imprisoned under communism charges back in 70s as he broke out of prison. Whats really funny here is your pick though; Nurettin Pasha. He was one of the most vocal critics of Atatürk. He was also a supporter of Sharia rule against Atatürk's laicism. He is one of the pashas that Atatürk personally criticizes in his iconic speech to the nation Nutuk. It's really ironic how he is used as an alternative to Atatürk among some of the AKP crowd and you end up using him to tie Atatürk to any wrong doing. What you claim I explained still has no ties to the citation I asked for. You seem to be banking on obfuscation points to avoid admitting how weak your case is.

    It's also very ironic that you blame Atatürk for not acting all powerful and manage to control every single person with all the resources in the world while fighting for a nation that got invaded by the French, the British, the Russian and the Greek, with the latter employing a scorched earth policy as it retreated in the western Anatolia. Why would the Greek prime minister nominate Atatürk for noble prize for peace?
    The Armenian Issue

  14. #54
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    Default Re: Cyprus: Teachers asked to tear out controversial page from schoolbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Sigh.. alhoon... You are obfuscating too many things here. You did make a claim about Atatürk make a statement. You seem to be backtracking from showing what he actually said.
    I am not backtracking, I am just not wasting time to fish out a link. I showed you the one in times. You didn't like it, but that's my link.

    Rummel's book is being cited by many others.
    The source about that Pasha is not just "a well known propagandist" (which seems to be an accusation you throw pretty often about these people) as we also have Greek sources and Europeans. That he was criticized by Kemal doesn't change that he was for a time an commander under Kemal.
    I have no idea of those "iconic speeches" of Kemal you talk about nor I find them relevant.

    If by "the citation I asked for" you mean the citation from the times, I have not even looked for it. The times say it, and that's good enough for me. If you asked citations about something different... ask again cause I don't remember anything else.

    I blame Kemal for not reigning in his commanders, not every single irregular or militia. Furthermore, his agenda for a united Turkish nation-state would be furthered by the purging of undesirables and obviously, he could get us on the table to sign the exchange easier if our kin was being massacred.
    Venizelos asked for the peace prize for Kemal because Kemal overthrew the Ottomans and to normalize relations with Turkey, so that Turkey wouldn't crush us or butcher the Constantinople Greeks. We lost. To the victor goes the spoils, or at least some appeasement because we did have some not-well hidden skeletons in our closet (we have done massacres in Anatolia) and we were not in a state to fight back in case Turkey's population, angry with us, formed mobs to kill those of us that remained or the Turkish army found some pretext to invade. Furthermore, the Christian purges and genocide was going on from 1915 to 1923 and Kemal is responsible for the last 3 years of it.
    In no way does Venizelos letter proves that Kemal doesn't have blood in his hands.
    Last edited by alhoon; September 14, 2021 at 08:57 PM.
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  15. #55

    Default Re: Cyprus: Teachers asked to tear out controversial page from schoolbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    I am not backtracking, I am just not wasting time to fish out a link. I showed you the one in times. You didn't like it, but that's my link.

    Rummel's book is being cited by many others.
    The source about that Pasha is not just "a well known propagandist" (which seems to be an accusation you throw pretty often about these people) as we also have Greek sources and Europeans. That he was criticized by Kemal doesn't change that he was for a time an commander under Kemal.
    I have no idea of those "iconic speeches" of Kemal you talk about nor I find them relevant.

    If by "the citation I asked for" you mean the citation from the times, I have not even looked for it. The times say it, and that's good enough for me. If you asked citations about something different... ask again cause I don't remember anything else.

    I blame Kemal for not reigning in his commanders, not every single irregular or militia. Furthermore, his agenda for a united Turkish nation-state would be furthered by the purging of undesirables and obviously, he could get us on the table to sign the exchange easier if our kin was being massacred.
    Venizelos asked for the peace prize for Kemal because Kemal overthrew the Ottomans and to normalize relations with Turkey, so that Turkey wouldn't crush us or butcher the Constantinople Greeks. We lost. To the victor goes the spoils, or at least some appeasement because we did have some not-well hidden skeletons in our closet (we have done massacres in Anatolia) and we were not in a state to fight back in case Turkey's population, angry with us, formed mobs to kill those of us that remained or the Turkish army found some pretext to invade. Furthermore, the Christian purges and genocide was going on from 1915 to 1923 and Kemal is responsible for the last 3 years of it.
    In no way does Venizelos letter proves that Kemal doesn't have blood in his hands.
    Your NYT article is hidden behind a pay wall. You made the claim about Atatürk's statement long after you posted the NYT article as well. The link you provide for Rummel's book's citations yield only 3 results. None of them are citations by others. You really need to have employed better standards for defending your claims. I understand that its convenient to brush off the fact that you managed to find one commander that was most in opposition to Atatürk to blame all his alleged crimes on Atatürk. Yet, even there we don't have much information. Sigh... What you don't seem to understand that Atatürk did not gain Turkey's independence through his private army backed by unlimited resources. He, along with others, had to make use of every resource he could find to stop the Greeks who were razing western Anatolia. The audacity to blame him for not acting omnipotent is just amazing. Greek prime minister nominated Atatürk in 1934 so that Turkey wouldn't crush you or kill more Greeks? alhoon... This is beyond ridiculous.
    The Armenian Issue

  16. #56
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    Default Re: Cyprus: Teachers asked to tear out controversial page from schoolbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    The link you provide for Rummel's book's citations yield only 3 results. None of them are citations by others.

    Don't you see that Rumel's book chapter about the Genocide is cited by 276 articles according to google scholar? Also if you search a bit more, you find that the Taylor and Francis Article about genocide is cited by 1559 researchers and that's a big deal.
    For comparison, the book chapter on the Nazis is cited by 139 researchers.
    The guy has over 100 peer reviewed publications.


    " I understand that its convenient to brush off the fact that you managed to find one commander that was most in opposition to Atatürk to blame all his alleged crimes on Atatürk."
    I didn't search for long. That was the first one I found. Professor Rummel, with over 100 publications, some of which cited hundreds of times, has big lists. I don't. I found one to prove a point. I won't go looking for every commander.

    "What you don't seem to understand that Atatürk did not gain Turkey's independence through his private army backed by unlimited resources."
    I didn't say he was bad for Turkey, I said he was bad for us. What you also don't seem to understand is that Greek didn't gain their independence from Turkey through their private armies backed by unlimited resources... but during our war of independence we did far fewer war crimes that Kemal's thugs. Same with our war against the Nazis; we did fewer war crimes than Kemal.
    This is not whataboutism either; I am just pointing out that Kemal was not the only one fighting an asymmetric warfare and insurgency. There were bloodier leaders but there were many much less bloody. So, no, I think he could have killed less of our civilians to achieve his goals.
    Furthermore, by the time Smyrna was burning, the exchange of populations has been signed. The Euros and Greeks were running. Even Turkish sources agree that Turkish nationalist forces were at least partially responsible for the destruction and the Turkish army (Kemal has entered Smyrna 4 days before the fire) did nothing to stop the irregulars - and a great many number of sources claim the Turkish forces actually lit some fires. And while there are some reports of disciplined Turkish soldiers trying to help, there are many more that report Turkish soldiers taking revenge on our civilians for what our army had done to their civilians.
    By that time Kemal has won. It was just Kemal wanting to make sure we will run and keep running and failing to reign in his commanders and his vengeful troops.

    "Greek prime minister nominated Atatürk in 1934 so that Turkey wouldn't crush you or kill more Greeks? alhoon... This is beyond ridiculous."
    No, it is not. Prove why it is ridiculous according to you.

    Also, you ignore the other part: Venizelos at least got something out of it: The Ottomans were gone - and so were the Turks from Greece. Turkey was less of a threat than Ottomans, especially a secular one. So, it paid to give a thumbs up to the strongman that secularized Turkey.
    We lost, and with the death of Hellenism in Asia Minor, so died the Megali Idea. With the Megali Idea out of the picture, we as a nation accepted that we are not getting back Asia Minor any time soon. Horrible as that was, at least we also had a clean nation-state with far fewer Turks.


    And to conclude:
    For aaaaall those reasons (whether you agree or not) to celebrate Kemal, that has done so much damage to us, in a Grecocyprian textbook is insulting. Insulting to us (I lost great grandparents in Asia Minor) insulting to the soldiers of Plasteras that was the only responsible military commander fighting to keep the irregulars at bay so that they wouldn't butcher us instead of running, and it is insulting for the victims of Attila 2 in Cyprus.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
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  17. #57

    Default Re: Cyprus: Teachers asked to tear out controversial page from schoolbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post

    Don't you see that Rumel's book chapter about the Genocide is cited by 276 articles according to google scholar? Also if you search a bit more, you find that the Taylor and Francis Article about genocide is cited by 1559 researchers and that's a big deal.
    For comparison, the book chapter on the Nazis is cited by 139 researchers.
    The guy has over 100 peer reviewed publications.
    No, I don't. Even if what you're saying is true it merely shows how easy it is to libel about history and be accepted about it. Even you found his writing unreliable all but in name.


    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    " I understand that its convenient to brush off the fact that you managed to find one commander that was most in opposition to Atatürk to blame all his alleged crimes on Atatürk."
    I didn't search for long. That was the first one I found. Professor Rummel, with over 100 publications, some of which cited hundreds of times, has big lists. I don't. I found one to prove a point. I won't go looking for every commander.
    You didn't find one out of many. You found the only one you could find. It's the only one mentioned in the Wikipedia article as well. There is no list of such names in Rummel's article you cited either. It doesn't even name Nurettin pasha.


    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    "What you don't seem to understand that Atatürk did not gain Turkey's independence through his private army backed by unlimited resources."
    I didn't say he was bad for Turkey, I said he was bad for us. What you also don't seem to understand is that Greek didn't gain their independence from Turkey through their private armies backed by unlimited resources... but during our war of independence we did far fewer war crimes that Kemal's thugs. Same with our war against the Nazis; we did fewer war crimes than Kemal.
    This is not whataboutism either; I am just pointing out that Kemal was not the only one fighting an asymmetric warfare and insurgency. There were bloodier leaders but there were many much less bloody. So, no, I think he could have killed less of our civilians to achieve his goals.
    I didn't say you were saying Atatürk was bad for Turkey. Please read what I write more carefully... The entire Muslim population of Morea disappeared in a week during the Greek war of independence. They didn't have a chance to be exchanged with Ottomans. This is not a pissing contest though. At face value, just because you think Turks did more doesn't mean you can claim anything about anyone on the Turkish side while brushing off or outright ignoring Greek actions. Greece invaded Turkey, employed a scorched earth policy and you still talk about responsibility of Turks. Unbelievable.


    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Furthermore, by the time Smyrna was burning, the exchange of populations has been signed. The Euros and Greeks were running. Even Turkish sources agree that Turkish nationalist forces were at least partially responsible for the destruction and the Turkish army (Kemal has entered Smyrna 4 days before the fire) did nothing to stop the irregulars - and a great many number of sources claim the Turkish forces actually lit some fires. And while there are some reports of disciplined Turkish soldiers trying to help, there are many more that report Turkish soldiers taking revenge on our civilians for what our army had done to their civilians.
    By that time Kemal has won. It was just Kemal wanting to make sure we will run and keep running and failing to reign in his commanders and his vengeful troops.
    İzmir burned in September 1922. The population exchange agreement was signed in January 1923... Sigh, the audacity of burning western Anatolia in a scorched earth policy of the Greek army and then to blame the burning of a city on the Turks. It defies all logic and depends solely on propaganda sources. So much that you have to make that argument while ignoring the city's Serbian fire chief's report that it was Greeks and Armenians that started the fires so that the city's prizes would not fall to the Turks. A French journalist that was covering the news from the city puts it the best:
    The first defeat of the nationalists had been this enormous fire. Within forty-eight hours, it had destroyed the only hope of immediate economic recovery. For this reason, when I heard people accusing the winners themselves of having provoked it to get rid of the Greeks and Armenians who still lived in the city, I could only shrug off the absurdity of such talk. One had to know the Turkish leaders very little indeed to attribute to them so generously a taste for unnecessary suicide.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    "Greek prime minister nominated Atatürk in 1934 so that Turkey wouldn't crush you or kill more Greeks? alhoon... This is beyond ridiculous."
    No, it is not. Prove why it is ridiculous according to you.
    You want me to explain why nominating Atatürk for Nobel peace prize in 1934, 11 years after the conclusion of the war, was done to avoid war? Amazing standards you're employing there. Not sure what can be said.


    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    And to conclude:
    For aaaaall those reasons (whether you agree or not) to celebrate Kemal, that has done so much damage to us, in a Grecocyprian textbook is insulting. Insulting to us (I lost great grandparents in Asia Minor) insulting to the soldiers of Plasteras that was the only responsible military commander fighting to keep the irregulars at bay so that they wouldn't butcher us instead of running, and it is insulting for the victims of Attila 2 in Cyprus.
    Yes, its insulting to the idiotic ego of the Greek blind nationalism. All those people you speak of are likely guilty of crimes against civilians. In Asia Minor? They were burning Anatolian cities and killing Muslim civilians. In Cyprus? They attempted to overthrow an elected government and attempted to ethnically cleanse the island of Turks while forcing Turks to live in enclaves for years due to their violence. You're gonna have to excuse me if I don't shed a tear for them. None of that gives you a justification to libel Atatürk.
    The Armenian Issue

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    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Cyprus: Teachers asked to tear out controversial page from schoolbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    None of that gives you a justification to libel Atatürk.
    I didn't libel Kemal. He is a war criminal. That we also had war criminals doesn't stop him from being a war criminal.
    I understand why you won't shed a tear for the Greek Cypriots, but by the same token you should understand why they don't shed many tears about the Turkish civilians of Anatolia that we killed in reprisals for previous violence on Greeks by Turks during WW1 and the Balkan wars. And it goes further back and back and back to Mazikert.
    We have never peacefully co-existed for longer than we had now, but the cost of that was Greeks being kicked out of Asia Minor.

    For the record, not prosecuted War criminals includes the guys that signed the Dresden firebombing, or, obviously, Stalin.
    I don't think anyone in Pinochet's cult of personality would agree that Pinochet was a war criminal, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You want me to explain why nominating Atatürk for Nobel peace prize in 1934, 11 years after the conclusion of the war, was done to avoid war? Amazing standards you're employing there. Not sure what can be said.
    To avoid future wars. Praising the strongman is a very successful tactic in foreign relations.
    Last edited by alhoon; September 16, 2021 at 06:25 AM.
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  19. #59

    Default Re: Cyprus: Teachers asked to tear out controversial page from schoolbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    I didn't libel Kemal. He is a war criminal. That we also had war criminals doesn't stop him from being a war criminal.
    I understand why you won't shed a tear for the Greek Cypriots, but by the same token you should understand why they don't shed many tears about the Turkish civilians of Anatolia that we killed in reprisals for previous violence on Greeks by Turks during WW1 and the Balkan wars. And it goes further back and back and back to Mazikert.
    We have never peacefully co-existed for longer than we had now, but the cost of that was Greeks being kicked out of Asia Minor.

    For the record, not prosecuted War criminals includes the guys that signed the Dresden firebombing, or, obviously, Stalin.
    I don't think anyone in Pinochet's cult of personality would agree that Pinochet was a war criminal, either.

    To avoid future wars. Praising the strongman is a very successful tactic in foreign relations.
    You are libeling him and doing it in the least coherent and consistent manner possible. You yourself shot down the source you could come up with against Atatürk that didn't even tie anything to him. Libeling of Atatürk, like the one you and Heathen Hammer attempted, is nothing but a product of Turkophobia. Somehow we're supposed to believe that the Greek prime minister nominated Atatürk for Nobel peace prize to avoid future wars between Greece and Turkey (ignoring that the Balkan Pact between Turkey, Greece, Yugoslavia and Romania was signed against Bulgarian irredentism). Amazing logic you got going there.
    The Armenian Issue

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    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Cyprus: Teachers asked to tear out controversial page from schoolbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You yourself shot down the source you could come up with against Atatürk that didn't even tie anything to him.
    That source smelled like crap, I am not going to lie... there are several issues I saw there, which are in my post and I wonder what the heck the reviewers did when reviewing this article/book chapter as the numbers at times don't add up.

    But while the source didn't tie Kemal in name with anything, Kemal was the Nationalists' boss. The top guy. The source (even discounting the absurd numbers) clearly points out that the genocide was being carried out by Nationalists too. So, when tens of thousands died in Death Marches during the population exchange under Kemal's thugs, then yes, I can call him a war criminal. Since we have a NYT article (behind a paywall, but the title is enough for me) saying that Kemal said he won't protect Ottoman Greeks whatever his reasons for being angry with the Greek government, then yes, I can call him a war criminal.

    And last but not least: We lost Ionia because of Kemal. 1 million+ of us was kicked out of Anatolia. That's not an inflated number either, it is shown in Greek census from there on. And Kemal was behind that. Sure, we signed it. But we signed it because the alternative was for half of those people to die by Kemal's thugs. It was like "get out or be killed".

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Somehow we're supposed to believe that the Greek prime minister nominated Atatürk for Nobel peace prize to avoid future wars between Greece and Turkey (ignoring that the Balkan Pact between Turkey, Greece, Yugoslavia and Romania was signed against Bulgarian irredentism). Amazing logic you got going there.
    Somehow you're supposed to understand that for Greeks, whether they are Greece Greeks, Grecocypriots or Grecamericans, Kemal is an absolute butthole and a disaster, one of the worse scourges we have encountered in our history, including Tamerlane, Hitler and Mehmed the Conqueror in the list.
    We were kicked out of Ionia, why is it so hard to understand how bad that is for us?

    A book praising Hitler as a visionary that attempted to bring a glorious future for his country, although he was foiled by an alliance of other Western powers and USSR, has no place in a Cypriot school curriculum.
    Neither has a book praising Kemal.
    Last edited by alhoon; September 16, 2021 at 05:02 PM.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
    _______________________________________________________
    Beta-tester for Darthmod Empire, the default modification for Empire Total War that does not ask for your money behind patreon.
    Developer of Causa Belli submod for Darthmod, headed by Hammeredalways and a ton of other people.
    Developer of LtC: Random maps submod for Lands to Conquer (that brings a multitude of random maps and other features).

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