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Thread: God’s Love: A Thread

  1. #21
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: God’s Love: A Thread

    It sure is that I have come through some death defying experiences yet in each one I never experienced death itself, why? Because it was never my time to die so as I look back on my life I can see the hand of God at work in me all those seventyeight years of my existence till that day in time He put me on my knees to reveal Jesus Christ to me as my Lord and Saviour. The most important thing here for anyone to understand is that this is not about me, or, even you, rather the love of God centred around Jesus Christ Who gave Himself for us that some might be saved. Saved from what? Saved from eternal damnation which will be a lot lot worse than anything anyone has ever experienced.

  2. #22

    Default Re: God’s Love: A Thread

    In a world that increasingly values (the perception of) evidence over raw faith in addition to fundamentally greater available knowledge about the world than any previous point in history, threatening mystical damnation and appealing to higher power/the masses simply does not have the pull as it used to. This isn't to say people are fundamentally smarter per se, but something this 'basic' does lack compulsion to anyone who doesn't already believe it. Furthermore it is nearly impossible to convince or compel people of your position when what convinced you was such an individual experience. I will not delude myself into belief of active love from a figure by twisting the events of my life to fit a divine cosmos. Not when I have sufficient evidence to point at the direct work of myself, others, or circumstance as leading me to where I currently am. If such a higher power would seek my attention, I am open to a clear statement that is not founded on deliberately missing the woods for the trees. This is not a statement against anything happening after death, anything from judgement to continuation or rebirth or anything else. Merely to say I do not believe any human position has the ability or the right to say for sure. In other words, I'll find out myself when the time comes, and I will account for my ways without having been compelled to good behavior by mythical authorities and threats before then.

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  3. #23
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: God’s Love: A Thread

    Twilight Esker,

    You certainly will find out for yourself when that great day comes but sadly it will be too late then.

  4. #24

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    That is the same language of propagandists, cult leaders or someone with something to sell - the apocalyptic language of doom and damnation to compel service by fear, useful only to people who would tell you how to think or prefer the comfort one can find in surrender. Not to mention an unsporting lack of empathy from an allegedly loving god.

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  5. #25

    Default Re: God’s Love: A Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Romans 5
    You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1 John 3 & 4
    We love because he first loved us. This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters.
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  6. #26
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight Esker View Post
    That is the same language of propagandists, cult leaders or someone with something to sell - the apocalyptic language of doom and damnation to compel service by fear, useful only to people who would tell you how to think or prefer the comfort one can find in surrender. Not to mention an unsporting lack of empathy from an allegedly loving god.
    Twilight Esker,

    I'm not trying to sell you anything because what is on offer cannot be bought. If there is no Creator then you have nothing ahead of you to worry about the only problem there is that no-one has ever come back from the dead to agree with you. That said our Creator has confirmed that there is life after death by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ evidenced by hundreds who saw Him, spoke with Him and even ate with Him. It's all on record making your analysis quite wrong.

  7. #27

    Default Re: God’s Love: A Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Twilight Esker,

    I'm not trying to sell you anything because what is on offer cannot be bought. If there is no Creator then you have nothing ahead of you to worry about the only problem there is that no-one has ever come back from the dead to agree with you. That said our Creator has confirmed that there is life after death by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ evidenced by hundreds who saw Him, spoke with Him and even ate with Him. It's all on record making your analysis quite wrong.
    For my part I do think your belief is sincere, and if you have acted well I hope you are rewarded justly for it. My issue is the nature of the evidence and the many divergences on execution, even between you and others 'of the faith' on this forum. With such divergence in basic facts in addition to reasonable skepticism more broadly, it leaves this issue and this thread a little confusing in premise. Frankly, it seems like an appropriate echo chamber for belief, but has little to actually discuss - especially with someone who is more skeptical.

    And referring to the context of my quote, one thing that harms discussion is falling back to hyperbolic damnation, which immediately puts listening parties on the defensive and in no way sways the skeptical unless they are desperate and emotionally vulnerable. And indeed, desperation has been a compelling reason for faith to many over time. Yet that particular reason is especially fallacious when approached with logic. Logic is imperfect and will never have all the answers (given what it's built from, an imperfect picture) but it can be useful to stop the obvious. That is why opening with eternal damnation merely harms your case, rather than supports it, and results in this thread teetering on the brink of pointless. And were it to be a bouncing chamber for supporters, then it is a duplicate of the existing preaching thread.

    In light of all this, I ask you - what do you hope to achieve here? For what purpose was this thread created, and is there an intention to approach the topic differently to make progress over the many conversations before?

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  8. #28
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: God’s Love: A Thread

    Twilight Esker,

    The nature of the evidence is that Jesus Christ died on a cross and three days later was raised up to appear before over four hundred people. That He died to take away sin is without dispute. Where there is dispute is not on what He did for us rather discerning what God's word has to say about that. For example, did He die for the whole world? No, He died for certain people from out of the whole world. Can people save themselves by their own works? No, salvation is a work of God in the hearts and minds of those that He chooses purely by Grace. So, where does faith come from? For those who are saved, it is by the Faith of Jesus Christ which is imputed to that person. Therefore it can be said that those who are saved are Justified by Faith alone.

    If we remember the eve of Jesus being captured all the disciples ran away, why? Because none of them were Justified at that point. That imputation would only come at Pentecost even after they had walked, talked and eaten with the Risen Lord. On that day all that were assembled in that room were Justified by Faith as well as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit into their bodies. The results were astounding as can be read for each one displayed the Power of God to many in Jerusalem on that day bringing many to Christ before the day was up. From that point on the world was never going to be the same place again.

    So yes, there are many different attitudes that have been added to the word, even subtracted from it, but the important thing is that when people adhere to what is written, it alone is the Power of God unto Salvation. Why so many other things are added or taken from is primarily for power and also to let people hear what they want to hear. The very thought of having to quell the wrath of God is something no-one wants to hear yet that is what the Gospel is all about. The crucified Jesus Christ is the Gospel and the only Way to appease the wrath of God. Any preacher worth his salt won't preach on anything else.

    My hope is that someone reading this may have Jesus Christ revealed to them and be brought to regeneration.

  9. #29

    Default Re: God’s Love: A Thread

    The love of God is uninfluenced. By this we mean, there was nothing whatever in the objects of His love to call it into exercise, nothing in the creature to attract or prompt it. The love which one creature has for another is because of something in them; but the love of God is free, spontaneous, uncaused.

    God’s love for me, and for each of "His own," was entirely unmoved by anything in them. What was there in me to attract the heart of God? Absolutely nothing. But, to the contrary, everything to repel Him, everything calculated to make Him loathe me—sinful, depraved, a mass of corruption, with "no good thing" in me.
    God's love is not regulated by caprice passion, or sentiment, but by principle. Just as His grace reigns not at the expense of it, but "through righteousness" (Rom. 5:21), so His love never conflicts with His holiness. "God is light" (1 John 1:5) is mentioned before "God is love" (1 John 4:8). God's love is no mere amiable weakness, or effeminate softness. Scripture declares, "whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth" (Heb. 12:6). God will not wink at sin, even in His own people. His love is pure, unmixed with any maudlin sentimentality.
    Here then is abundant cause for trust and patience under Divine affliction. Christ was beloved of the Father, yet He was not exempted from poverty, disgrace, and persecution. He hungered and thirsted. Thus, it was not incompatible with God’s love for Christ when He permitted men to spit upon and smite Him. Then let no Christian call into question God’s love when he is brought under painful afflictions and trials. God did not enrich Christ on earth with temporal prosperity, for "He had not where to lay His head." But He did give Him the Spirit "without measure" (John 3:34). Learn then that spiritual blessings are the principal gifts of Divine love. How blessed to know that when the world hates us, God loves us!
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    Default Re: God’s Love: A Thread

    How is it a miracle that you're denied what is essentially an express ticket to heaven?

    Is that truly love that you get to stay longer in this living hell? Or maybe it's some wicked punishment?

  11. #31
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    What if its not an express ticket to heaven?
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  12. #32
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    When I was 10, I witnessed a car accident outside of my school involving my teacher. At that time I thought my prayers had been answered. She was a particularly angry old bat, nearing retirement and resentful of everything. But looking back, it was probably my teacher's prayers being answered, as she ended up with a brand new car and an early retirement.

    Unfortunately, she lived on a corner plot at the end of my street, so I still had the pleasure of getting told off by her every time I cut across her lawn.
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  13. #33
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    I don't know about any express way into heaven but I do know there is only one way into heaven and that is by being born again of the Spirit of God. Paul tells us in the book to the Romans that there is no-one who seeks after God and so no-one can save himself or herself meaning that every step to salvation comes by the Three Persons of the Godhead working on the heart of a chosen one, chosen purely by Grace. The key is the Gospel for it is the starting point for salvation. Where the Law failed the Gospel doesn't for it alone is the Power of God unto salvation.

  14. #34

    Default Re: God’s Love: A Thread

    Doing some reading today, key translations noted. If anyone has additional insight on those, much appreciated:
    Quote Originally Posted by John 3
    2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
    3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
    8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
    9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
    10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
    11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
    12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
    13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew 22
    35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
    36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
    37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    38 This is the first and great commandment.
    39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
    Quote Originally Posted by John 14
    15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
    21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
    22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
    23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
    24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
    25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Luke 9
    23 ¶ And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny (a) himself, and take up his cross daily (b), and follow me.
    24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
    (a) ἀπαρνέομαι - to repudiate
    (b) ἡμέρα - meaning as an integral part of one’s life

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew 10
    38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
    39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Galatians 2
    16 Knowing that a man is not justified (a) by the works of the law (b), but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed (c) in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh (d) be justified.
    17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
    18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
    19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
    20 I am crucified (e) with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
    21 I do not frustrate (f) the grace (g) of God: for if righteousness (h) come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
    (a) ἐπιστεύσαμεν - to trust, have faith in

    (b) σάρξ - the physical body

    (c) νόμος - pertaining to law or divinely ordained custom

    (d) δικαιόω - to be rendered righteous; also - innocent in a legal context

    (e) συσταυρόω - to impale/crucify “with”

    (f) ἀθετέω - to reject, refuse, to slight

    (g) χάρις - an undeserved favor

    (h) δικαιοσύνη - the state of justification before God

    Quote Originally Posted by Romans 12
    1 ¶ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies (a) a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
    2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
    (a) σῶμα - the physical body

    Quote Originally Posted by Romans 6
    11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    12 ¶ Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
    13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness (a) unto God.
    14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under (b) grace.
    15 ¶ What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
    23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    (a) δικαιοσύνη - the state of justification before God

    (b) χάρις - an undeserved favor

    Being “born again” is not a single moment in one’s life. The text may even imply that “being” a Christian is a bit of a misnomer, in that following Christ is not a passive act or state of being. It seems doubtful that the reference to the crucifixion is an accident or mere rhetorical flourish. By self denial, sacrificial death of condemnation under the law, one must choose, consciously, to have faith in Jesus, in order to live anew. This is the total acceptance of God’s gift of life to us. Jesus specifically said this is not a one time act, but constantly necessary. Paul explains that’s what it means to love God, to follow His commands, and in so doing, our minds are renewed. To love God is to obey God, and to obey God is to actively and constantly submit ourselves to his commands. In so doing, we accept his gift of life. If we don’t do this, we are unworthy of calling ourselves followers of Christ. Paul goes so far as to explain that the idea we could ever justify ourselves before the law without Christ is an insult to His sacrifice.

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    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  15. #35
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: God’s Love: A Thread

    Lord Thesaurian,

    One cannot have faith until one is born again of the Spirit. This is done in stages. 1 The Father draws a person to Jesus after hearing the Gospel. 2, On hearing the Gospel a person is brought to conviction, that is heartfelt knowledge that Jesus Christ died on a cross for their sin because otherwise they would remain condemned. 3, With a broken and contrite heart a person then will plead for repentance as that too is a gift from God and if granted leads to 4, regeneration, wherein the faith of Jesus Christ is imputed to that new believer as well as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to them. They are now new creations in Jesus Christ. So, being Justified by Faith alone is that Faith that Jesus Christ had going on to that cross believing the Father would raise Him up again is the same Faith that we too will be raised up on that great day when Jesus Christ comes back to judge all things.

  16. #36
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    I remember the day my girlfriend (now fiancee) told me about a conversation with her church pastor when she was younger. The pastor, annointed man representing god's love, said that her alopecia and her eye issue was a result of her not having enough faith in god. She was 8 at the time, and greatly distraught over her bald patches that had only just begun to grow back.

    And to this day she does not understand how an entire church of ~100 people, including her righteous and pious family, refused to stand up for her. Neither do I.

    And of course gods love is not limited to this circumstance. A friend of mine watched her cousin go through 2 years of painful, expensive, and emotionally draining medical procedures to save their baby-turned-toddler who was born with multiple defects that would have killed them later in life. They of course credit god's love with saving their child, and not the medical professionals that worked tirelessly to give the child a future. Another friend made it to 8.5 months into their pregnancy before losing their child to some unknown issue in the womb that was not detected until it was too late. She ALSO credits god's love, of her never born child, for that unfortunate outcome.

    This somewhat emotionally abusive relationship theists have where they believe that their fortunes and misfortunes are a result of a deity who had to use a rainbow as a PostIt note to remind them "Worldwide Genocide Bad" has always confused me. Even as a child I did not understand how people can read the same bible I read and see how god's flock acts towards those they find "different" and determine "God's love is powerful and everywhere".
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    Default Re: God’s Love: A Thread

    I always think it's funny when people pray and ask god to prevent their city from flooding after a hurricane. Like, he's not got the best track record as far as stopping floods goes, does he?

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  18. #38
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    Default Re: God’s Love: A Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight View Post
    I remember the day my girlfriend (now fiancee) told me about a conversation with her church pastor when she was younger. The pastor, annointed man representing god's love, said that her alopecia and her eye issue was a result of her not having enough faith in god. She was 8 at the time, and greatly distraught over her bald patches that had only just begun to grow back.

    And to this day she does not understand how an entire church of ~100 people, including her righteous and pious family, refused to stand up for her. Neither do I.

    And of course gods love is not limited to this circumstance. A friend of mine watched her cousin go through 2 years of painful, expensive, and emotionally draining medical procedures to save their baby-turned-toddler who was born with multiple defects that would have killed them later in life. They of course credit god's love with saving their child, and not the medical professionals that worked tirelessly to give the child a future. Another friend made it to 8.5 months into their pregnancy before losing their child to some unknown issue in the womb that was not detected until it was too late. She ALSO credits god's love, of her never born child, for that unfortunate outcome.

    This somewhat emotionally abusive relationship theists have where they believe that their fortunes and misfortunes are a result of a deity who had to use a rainbow as a PostIt note to remind them "Worldwide Genocide Bad" has always confused me. Even as a child I did not understand how people can read the same bible I read and see how god's flock acts towards those they find "different" and determine "God's love is powerful and everywhere".

    More less why in many why transactional polytheistic religions that admited other religions exist make more sense. Once you don't have a supposedly omniscient god who is nominally all loving (although not in the OT) you don't have those kinds of contradictions. Thus you can move to became a Stoic or to Epicureanism
    Last edited by conon394; September 19, 2021 at 07:09 AM.
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  19. #39
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    The reason life can be terrible comes down to one factor and that is man's situation whilst in sin. There is nothing more heart-breaking than to see youngsters with terrible maladies and there is nothing worse than to find supposed Christians who bring them no comfort or solace. Do I have an answer when my own family have serious problems health wise, no I don't but I do know that for every tragedy God has the capacity to bring good out of it. Sin doesn't take prisoners and as long as one remains under it the statistics are 100% death. Until the day that Jesus Christ returns the situation on this planet will remain the same.

  20. #40

    Default Re: God’s Love: A Thread

    Sin and suffering on earth exists as a result of disobedience against God, therefore man is the author of suffering in the world, directly and indirectly, from the moment Adam and Eve disobeyed for the first time and the earth was cursed. God does not cause anyone to sin, but rather, sends blessings and comfort:

    Quote Originally Posted by James 1
    13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
    14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
    15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
    16 ¶ Do not err, my beloved brethren.
    17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
    It is not man’s place to question God, only to obey, trusting the knowledge that all things ultimately work to the benefit of those who obey, like clay in the potter’s hands:

    Quote Originally Posted by Romans 9
    13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
    14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
    15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
    16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
    17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
    18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
    19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
    20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
    21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ecclesiastes 3
    10 I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.
    11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
    12 I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life.
    13 And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God.
    14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
    15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.
    16 And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.
    17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
    18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
    19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
    20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
    21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
    22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?
    God has willed each person a portion of life which we can use for good or ill. For one who obeys God, is joy in the good times and the bad. We can know that even the suffering caused by our sin cannot undermine God’s perfect work, and so we should embrace the purification suffering can offer, helping us to detach ourselves from the material concerns of the flesh, renewing our minds through obedience to God. As we suffer on earth, even Jesus suffered terribly for our sake. His plan is that people come to repentance and salvation from eternal death. It is a gift freely given.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2 Peter 3
    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
    14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
    15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
    16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
    17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
    18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
    The Scriptures explain several times, in detail, that we are to embrace suffering. Through the embrace, God’s power is revealed, the humility of submission to his will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Romans 5
    1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
    2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
    3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
    4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
    5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2 Corinthians 12
    8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it [suffering] might depart from me.
    9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
    10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
    Those who obey God do not need to fear the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Romans 8
    24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
    25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
    26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
    27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
    28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    More on that here.

    There are some contemporary examples, certainly, though details may vary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxe’s Book of Martyrs
    A young Englishman who happened to be at Rome, was one day passing by a church, when the procession of the host was just coming out. A bishop carried the host, which the young man perceiving, he snatched it from him, threw it upon the ground, and trampled it under his feet, crying out, "Ye wretched idolaters, who neglect the true God, to adore a morsel of bread." This action so provoked the people that they would have torn him to pieces on the spot; but the priests persuaded them to let him abide by the sentence of the pope.
    When the affair was represented to the pope, he was so greatly exasperated that he ordered the prisoner to be burnt immediately; but a cardinal dissuaded him from this hasty sentence, saying that it was better to punish him by slow degrees, and to torture him, that they might find out if he had been instigated by any particular person to commit so atrocious an act.
    This being approved, he was tortured with the most exemplary severity, notwithstanding which they could only get these words from him, "It was the will of God that I should do as I did."
    The pope then passed this sentence upon him.
    • 1. That he should be led by the executioner, naked to the middle, through the streets of Rome.
    • 2. That he should wear the image of the devil upon his head.
    • 3. That his breeches should be painted with the representation of flames.
    • 4. That he should have his right hand cut off.
    • 5. That after having been carried about thus in procession, he should be burnt.
    When he heard this sentence pronounced, he implored God to give him strength and fortitude to go through it. As he passed through the streets he was greatly derided by the people, to whom he said some severe things respecting the Romish superstition. But a cardinal, who attended the procession, overhearing him, ordered him to be gagged.
    When he came to the church door, where he trampled on the host, the hangman cut off his right hand, and fixed it on a pole. Then two tormentors, with flaming torches, scorched and burnt his flesh all the rest of the way. At the place of execution he kissed the chains that were to bind him to the stake. A monk presenting the figure of a saint to him, he struck it aside, and then being chained to the stake, fire was put to the fagots, and he was soon burnt to ashes.
    Jesus understands pain and suffering all too well. Isaiah said he would be so familiar with it as to be called “the man of sorrows,” despised, rejected, etc. Jesus is our living example, and just as he did not allow suffering to sway him from obedience to God, he is our comfort and advocate.

    Quote Originally Posted by I John 2
    My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
    2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
    6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; September 19, 2021 at 12:28 PM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

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