View Poll Results: Shall the Ostrakon be done?

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  • Revoke Citizenship

    15 60.00%
  • Dismiss

    8 32.00%
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Thread: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

  1. #61
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    If people are so bothered by the fact the origin comes from Akar, feel free to instead look at the fact I considered it to have enough merit to post, and I support more than enough to 'adopt' the post as though it was my own writing in argument.
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  2. #62
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    • So here's the thing. I know for a fact that Ponti made libelous statements against at least one person. However, it's up to the aggrieved party and aggrieved party alone (in my point of view) whether this should be acted upon (apart from decorum and moderative house keeping).
    • If an aggrieved person asks for it and if the libelous statement is grave enough, then oh god yes, ostrakon immediately. An additional ban wouldn't be out of the question as well.
    • But it's up to such an aggrieved person to ask for it (not asking for it isn't the same as accepting the claim btw), and the objection has to be to the fundamentals, not just to the wording.
    • The bizarre thing here is that we have one person who Ponti libelled against very clearly, but that person isn't asking for anything (which, again, he doesn't have to, but I do not presume the right to be offended on his behalf - stoic calmness is most certainly a valid response), and we have one person who objects, but only to the wording, but that simply isn't enough.
    This is the core point where I would disagree: Seeing a citizen behave inacceptably towards another member (and not just accidentally so) should be grounds enough for removal of citizenship. Whether or not that member officially or publicly complained is of no relevance, since this is not about private messages, but public posts and as such the public image of the citizenry is at stake. Hence public judgement of the actions is sufficient and requires no statement from the targeted party that they felt individually insulted.
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  3. #63
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Commodus View Post
    If people are so bothered by the fact the origin comes from Akar, feel free to instead look at the fact I considered it to have enough merit to post, and I support more than enough to 'adopt' the post as though it was my own writing in argument.
    I know and understand that, just as I also (before I switched to that stance myself) understood that people who supported it did have valid reasons to do so. But the primus motor does in fact matter. If it's started by someone without any relation to the accused whatsoever, it accordingly makes it so much more likely that the ostrakon was motivated by the actions themselves. With the history between the two, it accordingly set the bar higher to convince me. But it didn't make it impossible. It was akar btw. who supplied me with the additional information that made me switch to a yes.

    Admittedly I'm being superficial in some sense, but on the other hand I think we can all agree that the Curia is mainly about the visuals and the decorum.

    Tbh. the main issue here is that the really egregious stuff was kept out of the OP due to forum rules, which I think should be laid out slightly differently to allow the reference of relevant deleted posts in ostraka (no rule change necessary probably, just allowing for a proper way to do it in the application of the rules). I had not been aware of the holocaust denial libel in the tribunal thread, as I had stood off the thread before it sunk that far.
    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    This is the core point where I would disagree: Seeing a citizen behave inacceptably towards another member (and not just accidentally so) should be grounds enough for removal of citizenship. Whether or not that member officially or publicly complained is of no relevance, since this is not about private messages, but public posts and as such the public image of the citizenry is at stake. Hence public judgement of the actions is sufficient and requires no statement from the targeted party that they felt individually insulted.
    I can see where you're coming from, but on the other hand you risk making a big show of something when the agrieved maybe just didn't want to be bothered with it. Hence why it should be up to them how it should be handled. Obviously that doesn't stop me to silently judge the false accuser where I see him do this.

    One of the great things about our community here is that, as far as I can see, people don't fall for libel that quickly. We have people talking stupid things about others, but I haven't so far seen much readiness by other users to fall for it. So libel here hasn't the same effect it has elsewhere.
    Last edited by Cookiegod; August 23, 2021 at 04:26 PM.

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  4. #64

    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    Who do you think initiated this Ostrakon, Cookiegod?
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  5. #65
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    Can we, please, get on with this and leave the discussion over the technicalities of ostrakons to another discussions where we can focus on that so that we can focus on Ponti's ostrakon here?

    I find it absurd we are several days into this discussion and its mostly been about this process and not about Ponti himself.
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  6. #66
    Emperor Commodus's Avatar citizen, allegedly
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    If we can't agree on the fundamentals we're going from in this ostrakon (as long as the discussion still applies to it obviously), then I suppose it's an important conversation to have. People have the right to ground their position on technicality and other such arguments even in the face of disagreement or opponents finding them to lack merit. With not even an official point to the Handbook there really isn't an official line to go on. That said maybe moving on or attempting to digress would be more productive.

    Either way per the three day ish rule, vote has been added.
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    You clearly did something illegal to read this. Shame on you.


  7. #67

    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    I just find the talk of importance of libel and simultaneously being falsely accused of initiating this Ostrakon (same as the previous one) rather amusing.
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  8. #68

    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    The poll is up, and some of you will surely have voted already, which is fine. But for those who haven't, I want to summarize what I think are the arguments put forward for voting "Dismiss" on this, and present why they are wrong. I'll then give you the one argument that can actually substantiate a "Dismiss" vote, and leave it up to you to decide.

    Arguments against the ostrakon:

    1. The instigator has a grudge, which undermines the whole process.

    Against 1: I think this is has been covered well already, but it should be evident to everyone that who started this is irrelevant. Commodus already made clear that in choosing to put the ostrakon forward at all, he believes is has enough merit to come before us. Given that, the case should be judged on its own merits and the facts of the matter. In general jurisprudential proceedings, there is a sense in which it matters who calls an offense to the court, but that only affects the scrutiny we give to evidence. I.e. if the accuser has a grudge, we are much more careful that all evidence is real, not fabricated, and not taken out of context or altered to affect our judgment. But since the evidence here is Ponti's own posts, which we can all see, the objection concerning the instigator of the ostrakon is moot. So defense 1 fails.

    2. There is no fixed baseline of "higher standards", so he can't be held in judgment.

    Against 2: The lack of fixed standards is precisely why we have ostraka, to determine using our best judgment whether a breach has been committed. It is our responsibility to use that judgment now, not to point to a "lack of standards" as a reason to shirk our duties.

    3. Ponti might have acted badly, but we're all guilty of this.

    Against 3: This is just offensive. Many of us have never so much as had a warning, much less a litany of bans, points, infractions, and appeals. And moreover, most of us, when faced with a moderation warning, would politely apologize and try to do better. So no, we are not all guilty of this, and this is not the standard to which we as a group at large strive. It is moreover not a standard worth calling worthy of citizens.

    4. Ponti might have acted badly, but that is par for the course in the mupit, where much of this comes from.

    Against 4: I really dislike the mudpit, and go there rarely, but just to be a good citizen and give Ponti a solid shake, I just perused the last few pages of the 5 most recently discussed topics there. And guess what? I found almost nothing like Ponti's posts linked in the OP. Most posts talk about issues, decisions, or politicians. Some do engage with other users directly. But those also appear to mostly be on target, and to be rather respectful, given that we are talking about online political discussions. So Ponti's posts are not indicative of a general ugliness in the mudpit, at least the mudpit of the last days and weeks. And to justify his actions by saying "The mudpit is just that nasty" is offensive to the many people posting there who make an effort to talk in good faith. So no, I would not say his posting is on par for even that corner of the site.

    5. We can ostrakon him, but then we'll need to ostrakon others who act just as badly.

    Against 5: This is not even necessarily an argument against ostrakon. I mean, if there are others acting this badly, then ostra them too!

    6. Standards are being applied inconsistently, and hence this is unfair.

    Against 6: I do not see someone else who has posted this poorly and gotten away with it. And if that is just because it is not being brought forward, then bring it forward! Don't try to acquit Ponti by saying others need to be punished and aren't, so that magically makes him innocent. Rather, start proceedings against other guilty parties. I am not advocating for a site-wide witch hunt, because I don't think there are many people posting as poorly as Ponti. If there were, we'd be seeing a lot more ostraka.

    7. He's clearly going through something; let's take it easy on him and try to be friends and help him through this.

    Against 7: This is the most compelling argument of the bunch, as it takes Ponti's interests to heart, rather than just excusing his bad behavior. However, this overlooks the important point that while he may be going through something, his posting may also be harming others. And it is certainly harming the site at large. When a badge wearer acts like this, it reflects poorly on all of us, and us failing to do something about it only compounds this. Moreover, stripping him of citizenship does not mean he's banned. It does not mean we can't talk to him. It does not mean we stop caring about him. All it means is that we show that citizenship is a privilege which is earned, and it is a privilege which can be lost when one does not meet the bar we choose to set for ourselves.


    And now, here is the only argument I see which can actually substantiate a vote of "Dismiss" on the ostrakon:
    We should allow citizens to post however they like, so long as they don't break the ToS, and don't act so poorly as to be banned.

    This argument actually substantiates a vote of "Dismiss", and is not susceptible to counterarguments. However, I do not believe that argument is sound, because I do not believe we should allow citizens to be as rude and disruptive as they like, so long as they are strictly within the limits of acceptability. We are a body of men and women who come here willingly, put in our time and effort, and we have curated a place that is nice to be for almost everyone involved. Even in the mudpit, where things do get nasty, there are folks who come back year after year to chat away with cherished rivals. Someone who doesn't care about any of this (by his own admission) and who actively disrupts much of this is not someone we should be clawing to keep in the ranks. I believe Ponti should be stripped of his citizenship. But I also believe we should all keep chatting with him and hanging with him, and if (hopefully when) he gets back to his normal self, I'll patronize him myself to help him join the ranks again. I disagree with almost every one of the opinions he posts in the mudpit, but I love a guy who gets in there and dukes it out when he thinks it's worth it. I just won't tolerate him being disrespectful and derailing while he does that. So yeah, ostrakon today, chatting tomorrow, and hopefully re-application the day after.
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  9. #69
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    I would argue that final point is somewhat irrelevant as counter argument, as the ability to post poorly while filling the technical requirement to still be a (recorded delinquent) member of the site would not fly in other ways. Ie, forgive the equivalence, today's staff or any social circle seeking civility. The bar is not placed there, else it would be explicit in the Constitution rather than left open.
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  10. #70
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    In regards to 7, we are not Ponti's therapists so I would disregard it entirely. Lots of people are going through things and lashing out at their fellow man is not a healthy way to do it. It does not disqualify them from the consequences of his actions.

    And arguably, Ponti has gone through worse on this site, and we have united as a site to help him through it the one time because it WAS a site issue. He handled that a lot better, at least publicly, than whatever this is.

    This issue is not one of ours. Whatever has (likely) affected him in real life, my suspicions of what has caused it not withstanding (nor are they relevant), he needs to find a better way of handling it than how he has. That's on him entirely.
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  11. #71
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    Ponti's posting manners are unacceptable for a citizen and that has been sufficiently demonstrated in the present thread. I support this motion.

  12. #72
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    The last time we were here I asked Ponti what he intended to change in his posting style to make good on his promises to improve. His response included no particular changes to his approach and that’s what we’ve had: no particular changes, just more provocations, incendiary language, and gamesmanship. Small wonder we are here again.

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  13. #73
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    I've voted to rescind citizenship. I'm not mad, just disappointed.
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  14. #74
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilo11 View Post
    Arguments against the ostrakon:

    [...]
    I just want to state I don't disagree by much on many of those points. E.g. I do care who starts a post, but only insofar in that it requires extra scrutiny even as it is curated by the consul. Simply because if it's raised by someone without a history with the user, I, as someone who will always have imperfect knowledge, will have more readiness to believe the context of presented quotes to be as implied, as I usually do not have the time to sift through all of them at once, and because if someone had the energy and motivation to start an ostrakon despite a lack of personal history with the poster, that act in itself makes a strong case for an ostrakon.

    On 7 I'd like to point out that I, too, do not intend to play a therapist, but the whole point of ostraka is to disincentivise bad behaviour, and not as some sort of reward. I absolutely do believe that Ponti has something going on and that he was at least partially motivated by getting "cancelled" and playing a martyr. Part of that game is to dance on that grey line. The less egregious the reason, the easier he can pretend to have been unjustly prosecuted. By calling his bluff, and by talking about this openly, one inevitably gives him what he does NOT want. This does not necessarily involve clemency, and I did not talk about it in that sort of way, it simply means that I, as a matter of preference, want to see behaviour clearly over the line. Which his indubitably was.

    Finally, as per request of PoVG I'd like to restate that I do not believe him to be the originator of the ostrakon. I said so multiple times, but in one early post when in a hurry I accidentally merged several sentences into one the wrong way, so it gives the wrong impression.

    I got multiple other PM's on the matter of this ostrakon, apologies that I can't answer them all, as I'm travelling and on my holidays since 2 days ago, but you raised good points and I generally agree.

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  15. #75

    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    The idea of "he's going through something" was viable for the first wave but I think most of us are aware that this is not the first wave. His conduct have been persistent periodically in the past year or two with short to mid periods of inactivity in between each wave.
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  16. #76
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    If I understand it the 2/3 majority was not achieved by a single vote (technically two, if you really get down to the nitty and gritty of 2/3), meaning the two abstaining members might as well have voted "no".

    Speaking solely as a citizen of the site...Why even have the standards anymore if someone can blatantly insult members/staff and act wholly uncitizen-like... and a third of the voting citizens don't even care because they find the offender funny?

    What a weird reflection of real life this site has become.
    Last edited by TheDarkKnight; August 30, 2021 at 08:00 PM.
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  17. #77
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    You can do anything so long as you "own" the other side, apparently.

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  18. #78
    Gigantus's Avatar I don't get worked up over people anymore: they get a post-it with 'ridiculous' on their forehead and that's it.
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    Yup, normalization of abuse has finally reached Total War Center. A sad day , carried by fence sitting, confirming the old maxim 'not having an opinion is the worst opinion'.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight View Post
    ..., meaning the two abstaining members might as well have voted "no".
    Correction: they did vote NO (intentional or not) as voting 'abstain' by default is voting against the motion when the count is conducted: for a motion to pass it requires 2\3 of total votes to be 'in favor'. All other votes are 'against' in this count, regardless what the voting options are called. Might as well add 'couldn't be bothered', and 'no clue' to the options as it will have the same effect of voting against a motion.

    This was not a opinion poll for statistical purposes where 'no opinion' is a valid\informative option. This was a motion for action to be taken. Having an 'abstain\no opinion' option is absurd if it is taken into account.

    Let me toss some irony on the heap as well to finish the argument: if the motion would have been 'shall he retain the citizenship' then he would have not because of abstain votes.


    Edit: not like me getting things wrong like this: 'abstain' is not taken into account in an ostrakon.
    Last edited by Gigantus; August 31, 2021 at 04:56 AM. Reason: correcting the FUBAR




  19. #79
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    I'm curious now what it would take for someone to actually be successfully ostrakoned?

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  20. #80
    Gigantus's Avatar I don't get worked up over people anymore: they get a post-it with 'ridiculous' on their forehead and that's it.
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    Guess probation and eventually perma ban will have to do instead.




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