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Thread: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

  1. #1
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    Default [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    Ostrakon - Pontifex Maximus

    Here we are again, an ostrakon against one of our esteemed number, Pontifex Maximus. In contrast to the last one, there's a fair amount of starting material. Here goes.

    Accusation Pontifex Maximus's behaviour and attitude have, of late, been nothing short of shockingly juvenile, immature, and intentionally crude and offensive. Over the past few months every one of his posts has been posted with the exclusive intent to offend, rile up, or otherwise attack and disparage other members of the forum - as well as to disrupt any discussion possible. Between 2018 and 2021 he has appeared before the Tribunal, by my count, no less than 16 times for offenseslike off-topic posting (9 times) and insulting others (5 times)

    1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16.

    Aside from these incidents, every one of his recent posts is inflammatory or insulting,

    Below he accuses forum members of being "vaccine nazis", "propogandists(sic)" and "lab rats" while minimizing and making fun of the immense loss of life that the COVID-19 virus has caused to the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    The cope from the vaccine nazis for the past six months has been absolutely hilarious. The ABCDLMAOP "variants" which have likewise failed to contribute to the number of dead bodies in the street this late in the game is absolutely hilarious. One would think that those indoctrinated to believe that vaccines are "scientific" and authoritative would actually have some evidence to point to other than their own failed policies, but I guess that is the nature of propogandists. Thank goodness they're the lab rats in all of this rushed vaccine nonsense.
    Is this the sort of rhetoric and discourse that we expect of citizens, especially those who are former Moderators and Administrators? Referring to other users as "leftist morons" and downplaying the seriousness of a global pandemic is not the sort of behavior we typically seek out or reward here in the Curia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Do I really have to link you to the propoganda where leftist morons railed against anti viral measured just to own Trump as well as the leaked lab hypothesis? My God, this is exhibit A of effective propoganda lamo
    Below are two examples of him attacking another user and openly accusing them of racism and suggesting that they possess a heinous racial bias.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    But I digress, please defend why you think ethnic minorities are either too poor or stupid to afford a free state issued ID card?
    I'll go ahead and add my favorite counter to totally laughable and simplistic arguments you've raised in that if voting is one of muh fundamental rights, so is gun ownership. Should I be able to buy a gun if I have no ID? Come on now, at least bride logically consistent. I know you won't be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Why do you think black people are too stupid to know how to get free IDs? Honestly curious. The thought never crossed my mind at all. I think black people are just as smart as white people.
    Here he accuses a user of denying the Armenian Genocide while referring to his argument as "moronic". I don't think this is the sort of rhetoric and levelheaded discourse we expect our members to take part in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    It is very easy: you deny the Armenian genocide happened. It is both morally wrong and historically inaccurate. Anyone carrying water for your pathetic cause is so obviously and laughably biased as to not even be worthy of a response. This is fairgame for any other equally moronic argument you make because it is a fundamental argument you have made for years now. Trying to hide behind technicalities for your abhorrent opinions is too little too late. Anyone pathetically defending you in this situation likewise lacks any legitimacy and deserves to be laughed at for identically stupid anti-Armenian genocidal views. Pathetic.

    I'll withdraw my appeal here and now if you officially go on record and acknowledge the legitimacy and historical truth of the Armenian genocide.
    And here is another post he made (in his appeal for calling another user an Armenian Genocide denier) where he accuses that same member as well as an Administrator of genocide denial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    1. Both seth and Abdul deny the Armenian genocide
    In that same post he calls those same two members "shill Turk apologists" and doubles down on his accusations that certain members (one of which is an Admin) deny the Armenian Genocide. Is this the sort of behavior we expect from citizens, especially when posting an appeal for using this same sort of rhetoric before?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Leftists (shill Turk apologists) insist voter ID laws are blatantly racist and evil while simultaneously denying the proven facts of an event which was undeniably evil and racist. The two arguments cannot exist simultaneously and thus pointing this out is well within fair play of debate standards. The fact the infracting "admin" who also historically and famously shills for Turkey and denies the Armenian genocide should tell you everything you need to know.

    And here he makes that same heinous allegation, once again in his appeal thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    So it is just coincidence to you that the only admin who denies the Armenian genocide would take issue
    In this post (In his appeal, once again) he calls the members of the Tribunal a "leftist ideologically captured kangaroo court". While this insult is hilariously juvenile, it is nevertheless an insult and its comedic nature doesn't detract from the nastiness of its issuer's intent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Yet the tribunal finds that my ten year old past is relevant in its finding, confirming it is a leftist, ideologically captured kangaroo court. Pathetic, yet predictable. iskar and tdk ratify the denial of the Armenian Genocide to own ponti. lawl. Well, at least I have nothing to lose now.
    I don't even know what to say about this next post aside from how hilariously immature and intentionally disruptive it is. Read it for yourself and then ask yourself, "is that's the sort of post that we should encourage citizens to make?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Remember when the country shut down for fifteen days to flatten the curve because the Faucists demanded it? then it turned into day 505 to flatten the curve and the asterisk Biden admin claimed credit for job creation which was just the economy opening back up again? Of course you don't, because you spout the Faucist propoganda. Nobody but the ideologically indocrinated are convinced. When the Faucists and maskurbators insisted we shut down the economy because of muh pandemic, people lost their jobs. Claiming credit for job creation by listing Faucist and maskurbating rules isn't creating new jobs. How laughable lol. It literally takes a Fausict Maskurbator to claim this ridiculousness.
    Oh, and here's a post where he refers to Armenians as "filthy Armenians". It's worth noting that this post has ALREADY been edited by Abdul for "name calling", so there was presumably a worse insult there than "filthy armenians".

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    The Turkish state defi early colluded and participated in the systematic genocide of filthy Armenian, and probably other, dissidents. The propoganda evidence of the mass Graves are nothing more than Trump propoganda or whatever dumbasdery we're supposed to believe this week.
    Here's a recent appeal (made today) where he doubles down on his previous accusation that users and the admins are holocaust deniers. Once again, probably not the sort of behavior we want from our citizenry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Appeal the latest dumbass Armenian holocaust denying water carrying infraction for the holocaust denying admins. In case there was any ambiguity, Abdulmedic insists on denying and protecting those who deny the Armenian genocide.
    And I don't even know what this next post is supposed to mean, but seriously, people? "Liberal retard establishment", "Dumbass idiot libtard retardation", "neoliberal moron idiot funding". Anyone want to take a shot at interpretting that?

    The Liberal retard establishment has chocked up a huge win. Not only has the dumbass idiot libtard retardation refunding been refunded, but it has been funded as a viable portion of the neoliberal moron idiot funding. Biden was straight up as a genius in this area.
    And who could forget the cherry on top, the infamous "gypsy post"....

    The best way to black pill me is for SJW morons in the UK to jump on this as some sort of racist agenda. London has fallen, it did a while ago. Enjoy your migrant seeking, non-British hellscape. When Rome was falling in 2012 I had hoped it wouldn't be that bad and maybe I could visit the forum romanorum and circus as soon as I could afford another trip. The rampant gypsy crime was bad enough, but once the African migrants started to assault my mother who was accompanying me I decided I better back off for a while. The gypsy scourge is bad enough without the added difficulty of navigating dozens of Africans draping me and any woman I travel with gaudy fake jewelry and demanding payment for it. Contrary to the mainstream idiotic beliefs, not all cultures are created equal. And anticipating the inevitable counter-arguments of "OMG YOURE SUCH A RACIST PIG" or whatever, show me how gypsy culture isn't just literally organized petty theft.
    Also worth noting is Pontifex's behaviour and attitude towards the Curia as a whole and the Ostrakon process in particular. His previous Ostrakon for similar behaviour is worth reviewing as it showcases his insulting and uncaring attitude towards his fellow citizens.

    All in all, it is my belief that Pontifex Maximus is no longer worthy of his citizenship, and that it should be permanently revoked.


    Defense Cancel culture at it's finest. Do what you will, I don't care any more. If a bunch of whiny citizens want to punish me by revoking something which hasn't held any value since they opened the Curia to non-citizens then so be it. I find it hilarious they're so butt hurt by opinions they don't agree with.


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  2. #2
    Kilo11's Avatar Philosopher
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    Well, that's all a bit intense, and an unfortunate string of things to read all in one go. However, I don't see that there is anything to discuss here. I agree with some of Ponti's underlying points with regards to admins which are curating a-historical positions which further harms against an ethnic group. However, though I agree with the underlying point, the way he approaches his "defense" is indicative of a problem. It is disrespectful, it is often ad hominem, and it sometimes misses the mark as a defense at all. Furthermore, the rest of what Akar has listed above does indeed show a heavily entrenched pattern of posting in a manner that does seem calculated to be disruptive; baiting language, unfounded accusations, and red herrings are riddled throughout all of it, and none of that speaks to an intent to have open and honest discussion about whatever was at stake. These are all things which I believe do show behavior clearly unbecoming of a citizen. The most clear indicator in favor of this ostrakon however, is not what Akar said in accusation, but rather Ponti's response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Defense
    Do what you will, I don't care anymore. If a bunch of whiny citizens want to punish me by revoking something which hasn't held any value since they opened the Curia to non-citizens then so be it. I find it hilarious they're so butt hurt by opinions they don't agree with.
    If Pontifex Maximus does not care about his citizenship and thinks the whole thing holds no value, then it does him no harm to strip him of it. And since his activity has clearly been a poor indicator of the standard to which we would like citizens to strive toward, it may do good to have him no longer hold that badge. So the scales seem to rather obviously tip to ostrakon, and by Ponti's own wishes at that.

    I would though, as always, be interested in hearing others' opinions on the matter.
    Last edited by Kilo11; August 20, 2021 at 10:27 AM. Reason: Typo :facepalm:
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    I know who started this ostrakon and the real reason why and it has nothing to do with Pontifex posts (part of which were made with the encouragement of the initiator no less) and everything to do with beef between the two. While Pontifex' behavior has been poor as of late I cannot condone frivolous use of ostrakons just to get back at someone who is currently ignoring you.


    Personally I'd quit citizenship altogether in Pontifex' position and not give the initiator the satisfaction of taking it away.
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; August 20, 2021 at 10:28 AM.
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  4. #4
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    I know who started this ostrakon and the real reason why and it has nothing to do with Pontifex posts (part of which were made with the encouragement of the initiator no less) and everything to do with beef between the two. While Pontifex' behavior has been poor as of late I cannot condone frivolous use of ostrakons just to get back at someone who is currently ignoring you.
    Yeah, no. This has nothing to do with the relationship between me and Ponti. If you want to call me out for something you should back it up with evidence. Unless you have evidence that this is based on my personal history with Ponti, you should retract this claim and delete your post - because I have a PLETHORA of evidence that shows this has nothing to do with my relationship with him and entirely to do with his lack of respect for TWC in general and the Curia in specific.

    Look at the evidence laid before you. If that isn't sufficient to Ostrakon someone, I can't think of a single reason why the Ostrakon would ever be used that doesn't involve someone literally posting porn or some .

    Personally I'd quit citizenship altogether in Pontifex' position and not give the initiator the satisfaction of taking it away.
    This is not an option for him. According to the constitution there is no situation where you can permanently renounce your citizenship. His is currently suspended as is, but that's not sufficient. Even if he were to renounce his citizenship (which would be pointless because its suspended anyway) it wouldn't stop an Ostrakon, the instigation of which is not predicated on active or unsuspended citizenship - just citizenship. This sort of behavior and blatant antagonism is unbecoming of any forum member, especially a citizen.

    By the way, please consider the following as well. I wasn't able to include them in the OP because I ran out of words.

    Hahahaha, amazing. Describing, exactly, the views and beliefs of another user is to be censored by the tribunal itself under threat. Yeah guess what, I don't care. I'll call a spade a spade and if you zerg out on it, that's on you. Unless your genocide denying opinion has already been determined regardless, which seems to be the case. Maybe you're an Armenian genocide denier too, in which case you'd recuse yourself if you had an iota of integrity.

    One who disingenuously denies the holocaust is a disingenuous holocaust denier. I can't wait for the tribunal to uphold this infraction in the defense of a disingenuous holocaust denier. Apparently TWC administration is now firmly in the camp of holocaust denial, and their lackeys in the tribunal lack any gumption to oppose it. Totally laughable. Double down on TWC's official stance that the holocaust never happened, but especially the Armenian genocide never happened. Edit for transparency all you want, that's nothing more than a pathetic threat to carry water for your overlords or political objective. The fact that a simple description of someone's beliefs would be described as "insulting others" is ridiculous. Seth denies the armenian genocide. He will tell you himself. I would describe those beliefs as disingenuous holocaust denial because it ignores all the evidence.

    I'm sure the admin with an Ottoman username with an established history of carrying water for the same retarded administration and genocide denial has a huge interest in shutting me up for opinions he disagrees with. The fact you've sold out to his line of thinking is hilarious. Deny my appeal, it will only add to the proof the tribunal is a joke, and by extension this entire genocide denying website.

    Please deny this appeal, it will totally destroy the credibility of the tribunal but only after Abdul destroyed his own credibility. Maybe in the evaporating pool of people who give a about TWC this won't matter, but the accelerationist drive into irrelevance and like fifteen active members will be interesting. Your leftist echo chamber will be more incestuous than twitter, which is saying something.
    Is this seriously the kind of behaviour and attitude we expect out of Citizens, former moderators and former hexagon council members? Seriously? If this behaviour isn't sufficient to qualify for removal of Citizenship, I'd love for someone to describe a situation in which someone would have their citizenship revoked, because this is as egregious as I've ever seen.

    And finally, once again, If you have specific evidence that I've made this Ostrakon frivolously (as you claim) you owe it to yourself and the Curia to provide that evidence or to retract your spurious and libelous claim.
    Last edited by Akar; August 20, 2021 at 03:43 PM.

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  5. #5

    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    I thought his Citizenship was already revoked for him to be Ostakoned. Did I miss something?
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    I see nothing uniquely different in his post that you read in the mudpit on a daily basis.
    When I first became active on the forum, i can remember there was a discussion about renaming the "Mudpit" in the hopes that better name would produce better discourse. It was resoundingly dismissed. The "Mudpit" is a mudpit for discussion. If you want intelligent discourse, a gaming site ain't it.

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  7. #7
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    I thought his Citizenship was already revoked for him to be Ostakoned. Did I miss something?
    A slight misunderstanding on your part, I think.

    His citizenship has been suspended due to infractions. Ostrakon is not predicated on any previous punishments being enacted. It can be initiated against a Citizen in good standing OR a suspended Citizen so long as the Ostrakon itself has been deemed to have merit by the Consul.
    Last edited by Akar; August 20, 2021 at 05:18 PM.

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  8. #8
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    Everybody who is moderately active on the discord knows what I'm talking about, I'm not going to break the ToS for you kid. For those who don't know it involves doxxing on a discord with 64 twc users, DnD campaign sabotage, incessant mocking and harassment, and general petty behavior from both sides.

    It's clear you're seething about him ever since he asked moderation to issue a restraining order on you. Most of the "evidence" you present are simply low quality posts that are justified by "I disagree with him and therefore this is bad". Attacking other posts or opinions and generally having or stupid opinions of your own are not against the ToS or against the constitution or unbecoming. If they were, a lot of people, including you and me, would no longer be citizens.

    Yes, his collection of infractions is a problem. And his attitude is piss poor as of late (an attitude which you had a part in creating btw) but that's not enough for an ostrakon. Suspension, until he chills the down and works through the very obvious breakdown he's having? Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I thought his Citizenship was already revoked for him to be Ostakoned. Did I miss something?

    Pontifex' citizenship is suspended because he was infracted. Suspension ends when the infraction expires. You don't need to be suspended to be ostrakoned.
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; August 20, 2021 at 05:26 PM.
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  9. #9
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    I see nothing uniquely different in his post that you read in the mudpit on a daily basis.
    When I first became active on the forum, i can remember there was a discussion about renaming the "Mudpit" in the hopes that better name would produce better discourse. It was resoundingly dismissed. The "Mudpit" is a mudpit for discussion. If you want intelligent discourse, a gaming site ain't it.
    I'm sure that you don't see that language used by Citizens as much as by regular members. And if similar rhetoric and discourse is used by Citizens, I would consider them equally worthy of an Ostrakon as well so long as the behavior is sufficiently sustained. The fact that others users allegedly use similarly inflammatory and insulting rhetoric is not as good of a defense for the user as you think it is.

    The day when the accusers can stand on the high ground, then that is the day we can take this more seriously. For now, you made your slop, live with it!
    Huh?

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  10. #10
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    Everybody who is moderately active on the discord knows what I'm talking about, I'm not going to break the ToS for you kid. For those who don't know it involves doxxing on a discord with 64 twc users, DnD campaign sabotage, incessant mocking and harassment, and general petty behavior from both sides.
    I am able to put aside my personal differences with him and see that his posting is clearly and intentionally disruptive.

    Posting proof of your salacious and defamatory claims does not violate the TOS.

    I have no idea what "doxxing" you're talking about.

    Most of the "evidence" you present are simply low quality posts that are justified by "I disagree with him and therefore this is bad". Attacking other posts or opinions and generally having or stupid opinions of your own are not against the ToS or against the constitution or unbecoming. If they were, a lot of people, including you and me, would no longer be citizens.
    That's a totally valid opinion to have, though I disagree.
    And his attitude is piss poor as of late (an attitude which you had a part in creating btw) but that's not enough for an ostrakon. Suspension, until he chills the down and works through the very obvious breakdown he's having? Yes.
    Again, valid, but I disagree. His behaviour hasn't improved at all since his previous ostrakon or either of his recent suspensions from citizenship. Clearly he has no desire to improve his behaviour or treatment of other users and additional steps need to be taken.

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  11. #11
    TheDarkKnight's Avatar Compliance will be rewarded
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    And here we are again.

    Speaking as a citizen, I do not think it particularly matters which way the decision goes. Ponti does not care about the site nor how he is viewed on it anymore. His statements and his word are evidently meaningless, and sound quite familiar to anyone who followed politics from over the last few years. Very sadly familiar.

    My last vote was a no, because I felt like it was not only a waste of time and the threshold was not reached, but that I hoped, genuinely, to see Ponti improve.

    It would be boring and pointless now to go into how this feels, but I will summarize it as "Exceptionally disappointed, but not surprised".
    Last edited by TheDarkKnight; August 20, 2021 at 08:32 PM.
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  12. #12
    Gigantus's Avatar I don't get worked up over people anymore: they get a post-it with 'ridiculous' on their forehead and that's it.
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    This seems the right place to put it as it sums it up tidily in it's entirety in my view:
    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    Enough is enough, Ponti. This forum will not be misused as a mere soapbox to denigrate those dedicating their free time to keep this site running. The case is hereby thrown out for Contempt of Court.

    For the record, the only semblance of an argument you hid amidst your rants, that someone denying a genocide should be called a genocide denier, ignores the very basic rule of the D&D to address the post, not the poster.
    I think adding 'members' (appeal history suggests this being focused on one individual) to the denigrated list would be a given, after all that's what the case was about.

    This is maybe the third or fourth CoC issued that I can recall (it's been a good number of years), none of the others led to the case summarily dismissed because of it. It truly takes a special kind of behavior to trigger that response from the tribunal.

    If this behavior is a culture as Ponti seems to indicate then I am all for cancelling it.
    Last edited by Gigantus; August 21, 2021 at 12:40 AM.




  13. #13

    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    I see two factors in here. One is Pontifex Maximus' obsession with me since I started criticizing the staff for a wide variety of reasons starting from early 2010s. Perhaps the standards for civility was different back then. I was even given a 3-point infraction (bounced from the Trıbunal) for telling a staff member that they were lying. Multiple staff members warned me about not being polite enough to other staff members. On the other hand, Pontifex Maximus' conduct portrayed him as a perfect example of staff's double standards that I perceived. I have been of the opinion that Pontifex Maximus have been enjoying a great deal of leniency for his hostile posts and outright insults. TWC certainly would not tolerate someone else with this behavior. However, over the years, the more I divorced myself from that, at least emotionally, the more Pontifex Maximus got invested on it. His latest attacks on TWC as an institution as well as the staff goes worlds beyond in lack of civility compared to any other member.

    What seems to have expanded that is the latest wave of partisanship on TWC. The defense of his conduct that we see here or else where is a product of that as well. The supposed conflict between the "right" and the "left" in the forum, though members accused of being in one camp often don't fit there, gave fuel to Pontifex Maximus' conduct in assuming a harassment type of argumentation. Dismissing this as normal for the MudPit is a product of that partisanship. In reality, its completely unbecoming of a Citizen's conduct. More importantly, we all have bad moments, but here we see such a conduct as the norm.

    A clear illustration of this partisanship is how when elfdude's Citizen Referral was being discussed need for higher standards for Citizenship was highlighted by the same members highlighting no need for such standards in the MudPit.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; August 21, 2021 at 06:03 AM.
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  14. #14
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    WTF are you talking about? Elfdude has 2 public refferals, one from january 2018 where he got a censure for being infracted for personally attacking somebody who had proved him wrong, for the act of proving him wrong - such behavior is unacceptable from a phalera holder and he got of very lightly there, I would have given a 2 week suspension - and one from october/november 2018 for trying to take "revenge" on Pikestance because Pike voted against his proposal/client/whatever. That last one got dismissed by me and Vateraan with a stern warning that he is going to be suspended if it happens again.

    So what double standards are you talking about?

    PS: Both were in 2018. It amazes me to what lengths you'd go just to snipe at someone.
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; August 21, 2021 at 11:45 AM.
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  15. #15

    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    WTF are you talking about? Elfdude has 2 public refferals, one from january 2018 where he got a censure for being infracted for personally attacking somebody who had proved him wrong, for the act of proving him wrong - such behavior is unacceptable from a phalera holder and he got of very lightly there, I would have given a 2 week suspension - and one from october/november 2018 for trying to take "revenge" on Pikestance because Pike voted against his proposal/client/whatever. That last one got dismissed by me and Vateraan with a stern warning that he is going to be suspended if it happens again.

    So what double standards are you talking about?

    PS: Both were in 2018. It amazes me to what lengths you'd go just to snipe at someone.
    The double standard that I clearly outlined in my post. The one that you ignored completely. Your post also serves to show the partisanship I was pointing at. Thank you for that.
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  16. #16
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    Let's try to keep things on the topic of the Ostrakon itself please, gentlemen.

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  17. #17
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Your post also serves to show the partisanship I was pointing at. Thank you for that.
    Pontifex does not have a phalera. If he did I'd hold his mudpit posts to the same standard. Not that I'd vote for him to get one any time soon. For there to be any form of bias you need to have comparable situations.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Pontifex does not have a phalera. If he did I'd hold his mudpit posts to the same standard. Not that I'd vote for him to get one any time soon. For there to be any form of bias you need to have comparable situations.
    We do as elfude's phalera is of no relevance. Per PikeStance's previous comments:
    If we valued citizenship then we should value the idea that a higher standard must be maintained. The higher standards cannot be just avoiding the ToS or not violating it but appeal to the higher standards advanced by Katsumoto's proposal here.
    Sorry Elfdude, I will uphold the ruling of CENSURE (which I think is light) and hope that you can once again be the torch bearer of high standards that the Mudpit so badly needs.
    It's not right to invoke higher standards for one member while completely brushing it off for an other.
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  19. #19
    Narf's Avatar Reach for the stars
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    We should not have partisanship carry weight here, none should be sniped at. I must echo some of TheDarkKnights sentiment, back in the first Ostrakon, I couldn't believe my eyes, I will always be biased in Pontis' favour due to fond memories with him in the RPG section. As such I disqualified myself, back then not being active enough to have a finger on the pulse with current goings-ons. I abstained.

    TDK hoped for improvement, which I think many did.

    Kilo highlights, perhaps a bit harshly, what seems to be the truth about how those hopes were met:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilo
    A heavily entrenched pattern of posting in a manner that does seem calculated to be disruptive; baiting language, unfounded accusations, and red herrings are riddled throughout(his posts)
    He later continues
    Since his activity has clearly been a poor indicator of the standard to which we would like citizens to strive toward
    With his citizenship being suspended and as Gigantus points out having been held in contempt of court, for defending the above behaviour, I don't think it's unfair to at least take away any leniency one might've shown due to seniority, past contributions or how much one likes him or not.

    For the ease of doing such a quick mental review, bared of fluff and feathers, I'll post the short but succinct handbook:
    The Citizens Handbook.



    A. Behavioural Guidelines for Citizens.


    1. Citizenship is awarded to you by the Curia at the recommendation of your Patron. Your manner of posting should reflect their trust.
    2. Your actions reflect upon every Citizen and the Curia as a whole. Think twice before pressing the submit button.
    3. Always use discretion when addressing Moderation actions. Use private messages instead of public posts, wherever possible.
    4. Be welcoming and polite towards new members. Hubris is the worst attribute a Citizen can exhibit.
    5. Support your posts with evidence, and never display work that is not your own without links or proper attribution to the author(s).
    6. Avoid bringing off-site arguments in to Curial procedures unless absolutely necessary. If you have a grievance seek impartial advice first.
    7. Visit the help and technical forums. Many of us had our first encounter with TWC there, and therefore we should make it pleasant for new members.
    8. Avoid personal attacks. When extremely incensed move away from the keyboard.
    9. Before submitting a Citizen Referral, first consider whether you have misunderstood their intent and seek endorsement of your grievances.

    B. Patron & Client Guidelines.

    1. Your relationship with your Patron/Client is what you make of it.
    2. The patron should advise their client in terms of Curia etiquette and demeanour.
    3. The patron should not in any other way attempt to influence the actions of their Client, nor make demands of them.
    4. The Client should consider obtaining advice from his patron on any matters related to the Constitution or the Terms of Service that they feel unsure about.
    We too must remember to be courteous, if he's going through a rough patch, our kneejerk action should be of a helping and supportive nature, before a mindset set on punishment.
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    Last edited by Narf; August 21, 2021 at 06:49 PM.

  20. #20
    PikeStance's Avatar Assume Good Intentions
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    Default Re: [Ostrakon] Pontifex Maximus v2

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    I'm sure that you don't see that language used by Citizens as much as by regular members. And if similar rhetoric and discourse is used by Citizens, I would consider them equally worthy of an Ostrakon as well so long as the behavior is sufficiently sustained. The fact that others users allegedly use similarly inflammatory and insulting rhetoric is not as good of a defense for the user as you think it is.

    Huh?
    Well, I am referring to the double standard and hypocricy. Unless you have turned over a new leaf, your posting would be the proverbial "pot calling the kettle black."

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I see two factors in here. One is Pontifex Maximus' obsession with me since I started criticizing the staff for a wide variety of reasons starting from early 2010s. Perhaps the standards for civility was different back then. I was even given a 3-point infraction (bounced from the Trıbunal) for telling a staff member that they were lying. Multiple staff members warned me about not being polite enough to other staff members. On the other hand, Pontifex Maximus' conduct portrayed him as a perfect example of staff's double standards that I perceived. I have been of the opinion that Pontifex Maximus have been enjoying a great deal of leniency for his hostile posts and outright insults. TWC certainly would not tolerate someone else with this behavior. However, over the years, the more I divorced myself from that, at least emotionally, the more Pontifex Maximus got invested on it. His latest attacks on TWC as an institution as well as the staff goes worlds beyond in lack of civility compared to any other member.

    What seems to have expanded that is the latest wave of partisanship on TWC. The defense of his conduct that we see here or else where is a product of that as well. The supposed conflict between the "right" and the "left" in the forum, though members accused of being in one camp often don't fit there, gave fuel to Pontifex Maximus' conduct in assuming a harassment type of argumentation. Dismissing this as normal for the MudPit is a product of that partisanship. In reality, its completely unbecoming of a Citizen's conduct. More importantly, we all have bad moments, but here we see such a conduct as the norm.

    A clear illustration of this partisanship is how when elfdude's Citizen Referral was being discussed need for higher standards for Citizenship was highlighted by the same members highlighting no need for such standards in the MudPit.
    You are referring to me. This was a discussion made between Halie and myself. Halie's argument is that the large award was given solely on merit with no understanding of a higher than normal standard of behavior. My argument was that a requirement for the large awards is to meet the requirements of citizenship. In a large award we recognized exceptional posting. It was logical that large award members should be held to a higher standard of attitude and behavior. There was very little support for my position. Elfdude, however, took my argument personally and acted on it on several occasions.

    The problem here is hypocrisy. Why should I hold Ponti more accountable than those that stand against them when their behavior is no different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Narf View Post
    We should not have partisanship carry weight here, none should be sniped at. I must echo some of TheDarkKnights sentiment, back in the first Ostrakon, I couldn't believe my eyes, I will always be biased in Pontis' favour due to fond memories with him in the RPG section. As such I disqualified myself, back then not being active enough to have a finger on the pulse with current goings-ons. I abstained.

    TDK hoped for improvement, which I think many did.
    Kilo highlights, perhaps a bit harshly, what seems to be the truth about how those hopes were met:

    With his citizenship being suspended and as Gigantus points out having been held in contempt of court, for defending the above behaviour, I don't think it's unfair to at least take away any leniency one might've shown due to seniority, past contributions or how much one likes him or not.
    For the ease of doing such a quick mental review, bared of fluff and feathers, I'll post the short but succinct handbook:

    We too must remember to be courteous, if he's going through a rough patch, our kneejerk action should be of a helping and supportive nature, before a mindset set on punishment.

    I/we do, If you see this and feel a chat might help with... I don't know. Do reach out.
    I have been away moving from China to Albania. When I last checked in, I still saw people not adhering the standard. In fact, that handbook was unstickied. There was nothing to indicate to me any real change has taken place. If you want higher standards, then "show me, don't tell me." (In case you do not get it, this is an expression, yes, I felt the need to type this because people are still disingenuous).
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