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Thread: Capitalism and the Second World War cont.

  1. #1

    Default Capitalism and the Second World War cont.

    This is a continuation of the discussion from another thread, regarding capitalism and the Second World War.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kritias View Post
    Cope, give it a rest. Every state reserves the right to utilize every mean at its disposal to defend itself when it is invaded. What the Nazis did during the last year of the war would happen to every nation at the same position. To turn around and present this desperate measure as long-standing economic doctrine, completely disregarding that during 1944-1945 the Nazi Reich was at its death throes, invaded from every side, is simply ludicrous.
    The claim was not about what “would happen to every nation in the same position” (not every state would have repeatedly violated treaties, prosecuted multiple wars of aggression, executed business leaders for “defeatism” and refused to surrender until the govt district had been stormed). It was that the war economy, (and esp. total mobilization) could not reasonably be described as “capitalist”.

    As per my initial post, the expected fruits of Nazi imperialism (which both necessitated a centrally-planned economy and envisioned a vast land redistribution scheme) did constitute the backbone of the party’s “long-standing economic doctrine”. The NSDAP’s domination of the industrial sector (which was integral to this strategy) was so extensive that it cannot be said to have been under the control of market forces, much less operating privately.

    What’s more ludicrous is to keep insisting on cold war propaganda that Marxism and Nazism are brother ideologies, a theory credited only in the circles of militant right. This claim is so ludicrous, and debunked so many times it’s simply laughable it still goes around.
    And don’t get me started on George Watson; a guy internationally discredited for transliterating Marx to claim he was the first person to advocate genocide (Ivar Ljabs; Robert Grant). Marxism is based on a class analysis, where workers from every country in the world have more in common with each other than with their respective ruling classes. I have already gone in detail about its tenets, so I wonÂ’t do that again. For the Nazis, the superior Aryan race was being cuckolded, betrayed, and lied to by an international conspiracy of communistic Jews - and the solution presented was to kill every one of them. In one sentence, your argument is hot garbage.
    This has been written about elsewhere, so I’ll be brief:

    Both German fascism and Bolshevism were revolutionary, collectivist, totalitarian, authoritarian, imperialist, prophetic movements which despised the old elite, emerged from the ashes of the First World War and seized power by overthrowing fledgling democracies in their respective countries. Both claimed ownership over the idea of socialism.

    The suggestion that these parallels can simply be dismissed as coincidental or “Cold War propaganda” is untenable.

    Let’s come to the 25 points plan. Oh man! You really brought out the big guns, haven’t you?! Do you honestly quote the Nazi electoral promises from 1920 to try and prove a point against evidence of their actual economic policy over 10 years? Really? Maybe while you’re scanning the 25 points plan you can check the point where it says they were about to murder millions of people in gas chambers? What? No mention of that? Curious… The Nazis would never lie in their electoral pamphlet! Right, Cope? It seems you have no clue at what low point capitalism was following WW1, and especially the Great Depression; the fact that the Nazis co-opted parts of the Left’s arguments to steal it’s audience doesn’t prove that the Nazis were socialists. It merely proves how the Left failed to understand and adapt to the Nazi threat. Apropos, it still does - case in point, this discussion.
    The plan expresses the underlying themes of national socialism. It was the party’s “official statement of goals” throughout its existence, even if Hitler’s prioritization of short-term imperialism took precedence. It includes nationalist and anti-Semitic demands (namely that Jewish persons be stripped of citizenship) and proclaims the party’s opposition to the “Jewish materialist spirit”. That the Final Solution had not yet been conceived of does not mean that the anti-Semitic ideology which inspired it was absent in 1920.

    Regarding corporate America, you try to move the argument sideways to suit your purpose here, Joe. My argument is that corporations will play any side to make a profit, and they did; IBM, Ford, Standard Oil, Coca-Cola and others had business with the Nazis throughout the war. “Systematic” collaboration (which is a strange thing to ask, as if corporate America is one indivisible thing) has already been proven to you by Morticia in the case of Ford industries. Just click the links and read. They aren’t there just for show.
    A systemic problem is one which affects the whole. Pointing to isolated examples of American corporate collaboration with the NSDAP is not an indictment of the entire system (liberal, market capitalism), particularly given the overwhelming culpability of statism in the humanitarian abuses of the 20th century. Naturally, the socialized/communal economy of the Soviet Union isn’t criticized for its complicity in Soviet crimes.

    Regarding the cooperation comment, read my bit about Stalinism in my first post – your comment simply proves you half-read my posts before you reply. Sad. But not as sad as trying to equate being in war and trading with your countryÂ’s enemy with not being at war and trading with another country. The aforementioned foreign companies continued to supply the Nazis well after a state of war existed between their country of origin and them and in Ford's case right until the end of the war.

    On the other hand, after numerous attempts from the Soviet side to form a coalition against Hitler (defensive and mutual assistance pacts with France and Czechoslovakia in 1935; failed overtures to France & the UK for an alliance, 1939) and the dubious diplomacy towards Hitler from the Franco-British side (AGNA, 1935; Munich Agreement, 1938), the Soviets signed a non-aggression with the Nazis to protect themselves from war, providing raw material for much needed weapons and technology. The pact also expanded their territory west-wards and it can be argued it's basically what saved them from the Nazis in the long run, putting kilometers between the Wehrmacht and Moscow. I do not mean to lessen the evil of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact here, but we need to see the larger historical picture before we start pointing fingers. Trying to protect yourself from invasion isn't the same as looking the other way while you are making a buck.
    It's interesting that Soviet Union is viewed as entitled to to collaborate with the NSDAP in “self-defence” (including on imperialist projects), but the same excuse is not afforded to German companies/subsidiaries many of which would likely have collapsed (if not worse) had they refused to cooperate with the NSDAP. Predictably the credit arrangement based on Reichsmarks between Nazi Germany and the USSR (which presumably counts as “capitalism”) is also overlooked.

    W/regard to the alleged defensiveness Stalin’s imperialism, the following should be noted:

    1. Soviet aggression prior to the war was not limited to the annexation of eastern Poland (where the regime perpetrated humanitarian crimes). It also included the invasion of Finland and the occupations of Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina.

    2. The occupations of Poland provided the Soviet Union with no strategic advantage. On the contrary, Soviet losses in its western border region during the summer of 1941 were catastrophic. German forces advanced 320 km and encircled Minsk within days of launching Barbarossa. The Soviet Western Front suffered 400,000 losses, including 10,000 artillery pieces, 5000 tanks and 1500 aircraft in fewer than 3 weeks.

    3. On their return to Poland in 1944, the Red Army refused to assist the Polish Home Army in Warsaw, effectively facilitating the German garrison’s destruction of the resistance and the city. Remaining Polish freedom fighters/partisans (anti-fascists) were subsequently liquidated by the Bolsheviks.

    4. The Soviet Union constructed communist puppets in “liberated” eastern European countries, keeping them subjugated under Soviet imperialist rule until the empire’s collapse forty-five years later.



  2. #2

    Default Re: Capitalism and the Second World War cont.

    The Marxist revisionist narrative relies on the notion that NSDAP wasn't socialist because:
    1) NSDAP repressed other socialist parties
    2) NSDAP allowed elements of capitalism in its economy
    3) NSDAP enjoyed support from major financial figures from its time.
    This can be easily dissected by viewing a conventionally "truly" socialist USSR, where Lenin:
    1) Repressed other socialist parties, while Stalin probably killed more communists then all Axis powers combined
    2) Introduced NEP under Lenin and artels under Stalin, essentially similar to NSDAP reforms with slight technical differences
    3) Brought into power via foreign funding, primarily from foreign bankers and German government.

    Now the other popular Marxist revisionist argument is that NSDAP wasn't "truly" socialist because of racial/nationalist component in its ideology... and again this narrative is crushed by communists themselves.
    From Lenin's vicious Rusophobia to Chinese modern-day Lebensraum and what is essentially Holocaust of Ujghurs, it is pretty clear that some kind of racial element has always been present in Marxist regimes, while this pathological ethnic self-hatred which seems to be a common theme among Western Marxists is only limited to Western Europe, where as Marxist/socialist regimes everywhere else were quite nationalistic and somewhat racial themselves.

  3. #3
    Kritias's Avatar Petite bourgeois
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    Default Re: Capitalism and the Second World War cont.

    Oh, Cope... Since you are using one of my posts for this, here's all my points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kritias View Post
    Answers to previous commenter

    (Please see my argument on the base of the post for further clarification of where I am coming from on this subject.)

    Let’s not rephrase anything. Let’s instead educate ourselves on the economic system of the Nazis, according to all historical evidence. When Nazis came to power in 1933, they privatized everything owed by the German state: steel yards, mines, shipyards, banking, public utilities… Everything. Throughout the war, the Germans sold off every bit of scrap they could from the occupied countries to Big Business. The rest they just plundered. Now I might be wrong, but Socialism means nationalizing the means of production. Not privatize them for the benefit of the corporate elite. There’s another name for that – capitalism. What about the Holocaust, or the German war effort? Well, here’s a list of companies involved in the running and supplying of the death camps. And last I checked Coca-cola, BMW, Ford, General Motors, IBM and Nestle aren’t exactly the bastions of Socialism. Only in capitalism you get to have an American company making engines for German rockets used against civilians in the UK and Belgium. Or providing oil to German submarines, aiding them to sink Allied vessels. For profit. So, despite your eagerness to couple the Nazis to the Soviets, based no doubt on the clever marketing trick of the Nazis to call themselves ‘socialists’, unfortunately your argument is just one big, fat lie. The Nazis were anything but socialists. In fact, they put socialists in concentration camps. Of course, I don’t blame you; there has been a hard turn in the West to this type of argumentation these last thirty years.

    Regarding your WW2 comment, look above, read carefully then check how many people the Nazis killed. Aided by American companies. ItÂ’s also very amusing that you keep confusing the Nazis to the Soviets when the former invaded the latter and killed, by conservative estimations, around 27 million Soviet people. Who somehow are pictured in your post as victims of socialism? By which I guess you mean that the Soviets should have just rolled over and surrendered, instead of driving the Nazis back to Berlin and winning WW2 no matter the cost. The main issue of course is that it is a morally bankrupt argument to claim that waging war explicitly to exterminate the sub-humans and staging a revolution to change your economic system (even if said system implementation turns out a failure) is the same thing. But it is no less bankrupt than believing this is the best system humanity can hope for; no doubt the priests, feudal Lords and Kings argued the same way. Go look at them now.

    Regarding starvation. To argue that in 400 years of capitalism, the free markets havenÂ’t figured out a way to feed starving people but only to make (somewhat) less of them starve to death every year is the biggest indictment against the capitalist system. Surely, enough time has passed to iron out any bugs in the system, right? However, not even this claim is true: since 2008 the trend has reversed and now more people starve to death than three decades ago. LetÂ’s not mention what has happened during this last crisis. Profit-based economy systematically produces hunger for a tenth of global population according to the UNÂ’s statistics. A tenth.

    Since we’re on the topic of hunger, you must know that every country on earth has food production capabilities; starvation isn’t caused due to food waste in the US or Europe. Every country grows its native, climate-appropriate food locally, and what it lacks is imported. Starvation is caused by food waste in the countries themselves. Simplest proof of that is that even in the most starvation-stricken country (Liberia or Sierra Leone) you can eat like a King – if you can afford it. If you were to fly to Liberia tomorrow with your currency, you would not see any difference in your diet; they have McDonalds. The simple fact is that local supermarkets and local businesses simply charge an exorbitant amount of money for foodstuff, sums that a good part of the local population simply cannot meet and so they die. For making a profit. Cool and normal.

    Lastly, we come to the environment. ItÂ’s extremely funny to see someone arguing that socialism is the only system that has caused environmental catastrophe while all scientists have been warning us for years about impending climate devastation caused by CO2 emissions! Maybe we can blame the socialists and their regulationsÂ… In all seriousness, if you just see the ten greatest environmental catastrophes in the world, Chernobyl makes the list and all the rest have happened in capitalist countries. You mentioned the nuclear accidents; of course, thereÂ’s not a peep from you on the deliberate drop of nuclear devices on human populations. Once again, intention counts. I donÂ’t think anyone could argue the Soviets wanted Chernobyl to happen for example, whereas this canÂ’t be said for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

    There is also a fundamental difference between the State failing to do something and having to clean up its own mess, and individuals failing and having the State clean up their mess while they keep all their money. The greatest indictment against the capitalist system is the fact that private corporations responsible for climate pollution have been lobbying successfully for years now to avoid any obligation to pay money to safeguard the environment. Just look at what was announced in the last G7 summit and what experts are saying about it. But when accidents happen, and they do every now and then, the State (that the capitalists trash talk daily about stifling competition and imposing regulations and taxes) comes in and rescues the day and ‘we’re all in this together’. That is, the State takes your tax money to tackle the crisis, while corporations walk away with their profits intact. You know, just like they did when the economy melted down in ’08 when no one went to jail but instead the banks that caused the crisis got bailed out with the taxpayer’s money.

    PS: You mentioned whales yet forgot the multi-billion industry of shark finning that kills around 150 million sharks every year, just so that they can turn their fins into soup across the world. The fins themselves are completely tasteless, the soup is seasoned with chicken or pork broth – 150 million animals we do not eat slaughtered every year because it’s ‘cool’ to serve shark in restaurants. At least we can use the whale blob. The biggest shark fisheries, incidentally, are in such bastions of communism like California, Costa Rica and Ecuador. Also, you might want to see how many capitalist countries still engage in whaling, too. Sorry.


    Your reply does not answer a simple question: if we were to seriously count, as you obviously do, all the dead people capitalism has generated throughout the world in its 400 years of existence, what figure would we come up to? And, having reached your own tally of the dead, wouldnÂ’t you agree that your argumentation feels somewhat hypocritical now? I think you will agree with me that either we value human lives or we don't. We can't both value and not value them on a case by case scenario. Unless we don't value them at all and we're just pretending. Same goes for the environment, healthcare, the economy and so on and so on.

    My argument is very simple: let's agree for a second to judge economic systems only on how many people they get killed. Let's also use the Black Book of Communism which claims communism has killed 100 million people in roughly a hundred years. What would be capitalism's tally in such a case? If we just look at starvation as a cause of death, that's 9 million a year. Ninety million in a decade. How many more for capitalism's 400 years-run? And that's just one cause of death, matching the dead for every way the communists could come up to kill us. What happens with every other cause of death? And more importantly, why are these deaths normalized and not even taken into consideration?

    I am sure you can now see that if we judged economic systems this way then support for the current financial system is unsustainable. Personally, I'd suggest to focus on real flaws and shortcomings and not on misguided slogans. I can argue this more if you like, but let's take this to an appropriate thread so we're not being disruptive. I think my first post answered the OP question somewhat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kritias View Post
    Cope, no. What you’re suggesting about 1944-1945 was in fact the total conversion of the German civilian industry to full war economy, or the ‘Total War’ doctrine. This meant even more lucrative contracts between industrialists and the government, and a tighter cooperation with the army. In fact, the Germans did not run their economy in the home front any different than the US, or the UK: the only difference was that their situation was infinitely more desperate, requiring harsher measures to reach necessary quotas to continue the war. There is simply no evidence the Nazi economy nationalized, or aimed to nationalize industries in the future – instead the Nazi regime privatized en masse, favouring monopolies and Big Business to the detriment of the middle-class shop owners.

    Hitler’s rhetoric regarding the International Jewry wasn’t native to Germany; in fact, this idea was espoused by many capitalists in the Western democracies and the theory finds its roots with Henry Ford’s hit collection of pamphlets subtly called “The International Jew”. If you ever get a copy of that, you’ll see that H. Ford’s arguments are eerily similar to Hitler’s concerning the Jewish plot of communism to overthrow the good, moral values of capitalism. The fact that Ford factories would later manifacture V2 rocket turbines (which were dropped on London among other places) is entirely coincidental.

    Your assertion that the Nazis only cooperated with Big Business out of strategic necessity is also not true, since records show that it was Big Business that put the Nazis in power in the first place. A simple example of this was when the Krupp Group and IG Farben among others bailed out the Nazi party in 1932, financing their rise to power. Big Business also pledged 30 million to tne Nazi Party right after the elections. It is also true that Big Business spent money to various other candidates besides Hitler, in a sense spreading their bets, but since his rise to power the corporate elite came to flock under the Nazis. You can read "Crime and Punishment of IG Farben" for more detals about the role the industry played in supporting the regime, and how they profited off it. In this way the common saying that fascism is capitalism in degradation seems to hold its water.

    The reasons behind WW2 have also been laboriously studied: the Treaty of Versailles is considered in tandem to the effects of the Great Depression as the main factors behind the rise of fascism in Germany. Plainly said, big capital in Germany were unhappy with their share of the global market, anxious to deal with the left elements inside Germany, and eager to make the big bucks through monetizing militarism (and getting those sweet, sweet contracts to roll out the panzers). With a simple word – capitalism. Whatever reservations they might have had on Hitler's populism prior to 1933 had been put at ease as early as 1931, through a series of secret meetings we have records of.

    Your comments about American businesses and the war are true if I were suggesting that these companies only aided the German side. I do not make such a claim. Instead, I am suggesting that corporations know no allegiance and will play any side to turn a profit. Hardly a radical claim, and can be proved by a multitude of examples. I have already provided a list of foreign companies equipping the enemy as proof so I neednÂ’t hammer the point more. But your claim that the Allies did not know about the Holocaust until weeks before the end of the war is also one big, fat lie: archives from the United Nations show that the Allies knew of the Holocaust and its scale as early as 1942. You can read more here. And if you still doubt this, here's an excerpt from Winston Churchill's speech, made through the radio on August 14, 1941 [1]. And if you're still unsure, here's a Daily Telegraph's article dated June 25, 1942, [2] reporting on 'travelling gas chambers' and the massacre of 700,000 Jewish Poles. In fact, there's archival evidence that London Times, the Montreal Daily Star, The Los Angeles Times, the Journal American and many other newspapers were reporting on the Holocaust with details since 1942. It just so happens that when there's big bucks to be made, corporations don't care so much.

    So, no. You're not correct.
    Cope, give it a rest. Every state reserves the right to utilize every mean at its disposal to defend itself when it is invaded. What the Nazis did during the last year of the war would happen to every nation at the same position. To turn around and present this desperate measure as long-standing economic doctrine, completely disregarding that during 1944-1945 the Nazi Reich was at its death throes, invaded from every side, is simply ludicrous.

    What’s more ludicrous is to keep insisting on cold war propaganda that Marxism and Nazism are brother ideologies, a theory credited only in the circles of militant right. This claim is so ludicrous, and debunked so many times it’s simply laughable it still goes around. And don’t get me started on George Watson; a guy internationally discredited for transliterating Marx to claim he was the first person to advocate genocide (Ivar Ljabs; Robert Grant). Marxism is based on a class analysis, where workers from every country in the world have more in common with each other than with their respective ruling classes. I have already gone in detail about its tenets, so I won’t do that again. For the Nazis, the superior Aryan race was being cuckolded, betrayed, and lied to by an international conspiracy of communistic Jews - and the solution presented was to kill every one of them. In one sentence, your argument is hot garbage.

    LetÂ’s come to the 25 points plan. Oh man! You really brought out the big guns, havenÂ’t you?! Do you honestly quote the Nazi electoral promises from 1920 to try and prove a point against evidence of their actual economic policy over 10 years? Really? Maybe while youÂ’re scanning the 25 points plan you can check the point where it says they were about to murder millions of people in gas chambers? What? No mention of that? CuriousÂ… The Nazis would never lie in their electoral pamphlet! Right, Cope? It seems you have no clue at what low point capitalism was following WW1, and especially the Great Depression; the fact that the Nazis co-opted parts of the LeftÂ’s arguments to steal itÂ’s audience doesnÂ’t prove that the Nazis were socialists. It merely proves how the Left failed to understand and adapt to the Nazi threat. Apropos, it still does - case in point, this discussion.

    Regarding corporate America, you try to move the argument sideways to suit your purpose here, Joe. My argument is that corporations will play any side to make a profit, and they did; IBM, Ford, Standard Oil, Coca-Cola and others had business with the Nazis throughout the war. “Systematic” collaboration (which is a strange thing to ask, as if corporate America is one indivisible thing) has already been proven to you by Morticia in the case of Ford industries. Just click the links and read. They aren’t there just for show.

    Next, the Holocaust. First, you said the Allies didn’t have any knowledge until the last weeks of the war. Now you say they didn’t know the full extent. Now that’s a revision of your position! Clever, clever to incorporate the word ‘full’ there: the absolute full extend would only be reached after the war, wouldn’t it? As you know, the Holocaust did not begin with the camps but with mobile gas chambers – trucks with their exhaustion pipes turned inwards to suffocate the people seated in. That articles about the extermination of Jewish Poles in mobile gas chambers were out in several newspapers since 1942 has already been proven to you. Now, do we have any reason to doubt capitalists throughout the world read the newspapers and had seen the reporting of mass atrocities in Poland, and the Eastern Front? I guess not. Is there any reason to believe capitalists would not also have more inside information from the government and as such would be better informed than the common public? Again, no. Simply put: if there was a peep about it publicly, the corporate elite would know more about it. The fact they kept doing business with the Nazis regardless proves the fact that capitalism is beyond the question of morality.

    Regarding the cooperation comment, read my bit about Stalinism in my first post – your comment simply proves you half-read my posts before you reply. Sad. But not as sad as trying to equate being in war and trading with your country’s enemy with not being at war and trading with another country. The aforementioned foreign companies continued to supply the Nazis well after a state of war existed between their country of origin and them and in Ford's case right until the end of the war. On the other hand, after numerous attempts from the Soviet side to form a coalition against Hitler (defensive and mutual assistance pacts with France and Czechoslovakia in 1935; failed overtures to France & the UK for an alliance, 1939) and the dubious diplomacy towards Hitler from the Franco-British side (AGNA, 1935; Munich Agreement, 1938), the Soviets signed a non-aggression with the Nazis to protect themselves from war, providing raw material for much needed weapons and technology. The pact also expanded their territory west-wards and it can be argued it's basically what saved them from the Nazis in the long run, putting kilometers between the Wehrmacht and Moscow. I do not mean to lessen the evil of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact here, but we need to see the larger historical picture before we start pointing fingers. Trying to protect yourself from invasion isn't the same as looking the other way while you are making a buck.
    Integral of course are Morticia's points here and here.

    So, en passe:

    1. Check first link in first quote. Nazi Germany's economy was capitalist. They were put in charge by capitalists for capitalists; to say they weren't capitalists because they went to full war economy by 1944 to win a world war, disegarding their ten years of economic policy is blind ideology. It's your right to be wrong, but you're wrong.
    2. In Nazism there's a strict racial hierarchy, where some races do not deserve to exist. To say this has anything to do with Marxism is pure cold war ideology.
    3. You brought that point up to prove Nazis were socialists; they were simply clever to try and steal popular policies from the left to carry on their ideology of racial extermination.
    4. It's interesting that Britain under Chamberlain doesn't get treated as colluding with Germany up to and including the Munich agreement; they allowed the Germans to remilitarize the Rhine region, to re-equip their navy contrary to the treaty of Versailles (AGNA, 1935), they allowed for the invasion and occupation of Austria, they tore up Czechoslovakia in 1938 and signed a 'peace' agreement with Hitler.
    5. Capitalists bailed out the Nazi Party in 1932, and put them in power in 1933; German capitalists led a delegation demanding Hindemburg made Hitler chancellor; they did not collaborate with the regime because they had to or they would go broke; they collaborated for the sweet, sweet marks Hitler promised and delivered them.
    6. Maybe you should read some history to see what the US did at the same time you're accusing the USSR of installing puppet states after WW2. It's frankly ridiculous how ignorant you come off when you write such things. In Latin America alone, there have been 56 military interventions, a few brutal dictatorships, US mercenary death squads etc etc. Let's not bring up Africa, the Middle East and Europe...
    7. Heathen, whenever you write of Uygurs to prove that communists are somehow racists, know I have read countless of your comments here in TWC where you rail against muslims and foreigners in general. It's also astounding how there's not one peep coming out of you about detention camps in Europe, where immigrants are being held against their will, and in America. Maybe you should check what has been happening in Moria, under the blessings of the EU, in a camp that has been dubbed "Hell on Earth". Or how FRONTEXT (EU coastal patrol service) is currently facing litigation for abducting, robbing, and leaving people on rafts with no way of navigation or even food/water to drown in the Aegean sea. As I wrote in my first post:

    Your reply does not answer a simple question: if we were to seriously count, as you obviously do, all the dead people capitalism has generated throughout the world in its 400 years of existence, what figure would we come up to? And, having reached your own tally of the dead, wouldnÂ’t you agree that your argumentation feels somewhat hypocritical now? I think you will agree with me that either we value human lives or we don't. We can't both value and not value them on a case by case scenario. Unless we don't value them at all and we're just pretending. Same goes for the environment, healthcare, the economy and so on and so on.
    Last edited by Kritias; August 20, 2021 at 05:09 PM.
    Under the valued patronage of Abdülmecid I

  4. #4

    Default Re: Capitalism and the Second World War cont.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kritias View Post
    Oh, Cope... Since you are using one of my posts for this, here's all my points.
    I replied to the post in its original thread, but it was removed. This thread was created to appease Moderation.

    1. Check first link in first quote. Nazi Germany's economy was capitalist. They were put in charge by capitalists for capitalists; to say they weren't capitalists because they went to full war economy by 1944 to win a world war, disegarding their ten years of economic policy is blind ideology. It's your right to be wrong, but you're wrong.

    2. In Nazism there's a strict racial hierarchy, where some races do not deserve to exist. To say this has anything to do with Marxism is pure cold war ideology.

    3. You brought that point up to prove Nazis were socialists; they were simply clever to try and steal popular policies from the left to carry on their ideology of racial extermination.

    5. 5. Capitalists bailed out the Nazi Party in 1932, and put them in power in 1933; German capitalists led a delegation demanding Hindemburg made Hitler chancellor; they did not collaborate with the regime because they had to or they would go broke; they collaborated for the sweet, sweet marks Hitler promised and delivered them.
    These points have been addressed previously. There's nothing to be gained from repetition.

    4. It's interesting that Britain under Chamberlain doesn't get treated as colluding with Germany up to and including the Munich agreement; they allowed the Germans to remilitarize the Rhine region, to re-equip their navy contrary to the treaty of Versailles (AGNA, 1935), they allowed for the invasion and occupation of Austria, they tore up Czechoslovakia in 1938 and signed a 'peace' agreement with Hitler.
    Chamberlain’s appeasement strategy is one of the most criticized foreign policies of any British govt. It has not been defended here. Even so, it never included active imperialist collaboration with the NSDAP, as was the case with Molotov-Ribbentrop.

    That said, it is peculiar to argue that both Versailles and an unwillingness to enforce Versailles were responsible for the rise of German fascism. Such a claim is reminiscent of the two-faced suggestion that national socialism was simultaneously a reaction to the failings of capitalism and it's ideological bed-fellow.

    6. Maybe you should read some history to see what the US did at the same time you're accusing the USSR of installing puppet states after WW2. It's frankly ridiculous how ignorant you come off when you write such things. In Latin America alone, there have been 56 military interventions, a few brutal dictatorships, US mercenary death squads etc etc. Let's not bring up Africa, the Middle East and Europe...
    Whataboutism, also known as whataboutery, is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument.
    According to Russian writer, chess grandmaster and political activist Garry Kasparov, whataboutism is a word that was coined to describe the frequent use of a rhetorical diversion by Soviet apologists and dictators, who would counter charges of their oppression, "massacres, gulags, and forced deportations" by invoking American slavery, racism, lynchings etc. Whataboutism has been used by other politicians and countries as well. Whataboutism is particularly associated with Soviet and Russian propaganda.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
    The USSR’s imperialist ventures are not justified by the false claim that they were defensive in nature. Nor are they justified by the activities of the US.



  5. #5
    Kritias's Avatar Petite bourgeois
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    Default Re: Capitalism and the Second World War cont.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    These points have been addressed previously. There's nothing to be gained from repetition.
    You mean you have no further arguments against these? Thank you for ceding the points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    ChamberlainÂ’s appeasement strategy is one of the most criticized foreign policies of any British govt. It has not been defended here. Even so, it never included active imperialist collaboration with the NSDAP, as was the case with Molotov-Ribbentrop.
    Yes, it has been criticized and rightly so. But you're wrong it did not include active imperialist collaboration: the whole point of appeasement was to direct Nazi imperialism eastwards, by allowing the occupation of both Austria and Czechoslovakia and signing a peace treaty with Hitler at Munich. This great success of 'peace in our time' while a whole country was gobbled up by the Nazis is the definition of aiding Nazi imperialism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    That said, it is peculiar to argue that both Versailles and an unwillingness to enforce Versailles were responsible for the rise of German fascism. Such a claim is reminiscent of the two-faced suggestion that national socialism was simultaneously a reaction to the failings of capitalism and it's ideological bed-fellow.
    You can't cope with nuance, can you? The Nazis were put in power by German industrialists; they were funded, and supported by them; a delegation of German industrialists demanded Hitler be made chancellor; throughout the war they were making billions; and they were put in trial at Nuremberg for it. I have already provided evidence for all of this. To the contrary when the German revolution happened in 1918, German industrialists funded the freicorps to go about and extra-judicially murder communists like Rosa Luxemburg. What more evidence do you need to see that German industrialist not only saw a friendly face in Nazism, but actively supported it?

    What you don't seem to understand is that capitalist crisis generates critisism; of these one is revolutionary (communism) which advocates for the ovethrow of capitalism. The other is not, and works to protect capitalism and its interests by jailing, killing or otherwise oppressing those who advocate for capitalist overthrow. Fascism has always operated this way and to deny this is simply unsupportable by historical facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    The USSRÂ’s imperialist ventures are not justified by the false claim that they were defensive in nature. Nor are they justified by the activities of the US.
    That means that US imperialist ventures are also not justified by the false claim they are defensive in nature, correct? You are holding up a double standard here; you can't be accusing of the Soviets without accusing the West of the same thing. If you were to condemn imperialism in general, then we'd be in agreement. I also wrote that the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact is evil besides it's practical uses, which you seem to forget. But you use a blind view of imperialism as if it were only coming from the Soviets, to prove they were the same as the Nazis. That's complete nonsense, sorry.

    PS. I see your accusation of whataboutism, and raise you with soft-core Holocaust negation and denial. You both have been trivializing German war crimes, comparing them to the "much more horrible" Soviet ones for a while now.

    [quote]Contrary to the hard-core version, soft-core denial is often not easily identifiable. Often it is tolerated, or even encouraged and reproduced in the mainstream, not only in Germany. Scholars have only recently begun to unravel this disturbing phenomenon. Manfred Gerstenfeld discusses Holocaust trivialization in an article published in 2008. In Germany in 2007 two scholars, Thorsten Eitz and Georg Stötzel, published a voluminous dictionary of German language and discourse regarding National Socialism and the Holocaust. It includes chapters on Holocaust trivialization and contrived comparisons, such as the infamous "atomic Holocaust", "Babycaust," "Holocaust of abortion", "red Holocaust" or "biological Holocaust."[/quote]

    See? I know how to search wikipedia, too. Can we get back to actual debating now?
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; December 22, 2021 at 07:51 AM. Reason: Personal.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Capitalism and the Second World War cont.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kritias View Post
    You mean you have no further arguments against these? Thank you for ceding the points.
    Those points are a repetition of claims already addressed (in some cases, more than once).

    Yes, it has been criticized and rightly so. But you're wrong it did not include active imperialist collaboration: the whole point of appeasement was to direct Nazi imperialism eastwards, by allowing the occupation of both Austria and Czechoslovakia and signing a peace treaty with Hitler at Munich. This great success of 'peace in our time' while a whole country was gobbled up by the Nazis is the definition of aiding Nazi imperialism.
    The purpose of appeasement was to maintain the balance of power in Europe without triggering a war with Germany. The Chamberlain government was willing to sacrifice Versailles and the Sudetenland to achieve that. Had it done nothing, the outcome would not have changed. Refusing to intercede militarily on another country's behalf and/or making a final territorial concession is dissimilar to actively collaborating with another imperial power to annex foreign territory (i.e. Molotov-Ribbentrop).

    The claim that the intention of appeasement was to direct Nazi "imperialism eastward" is false. The NSDAP's focus was already on eastward expansion and its eastward expansion was ultimately what caused the Anglo-French declaration of war via the guarantee on Poland.

    You can't cope with nuance, can you? The Nazis were put in power by German industrialists; they were funded, and supported by them; a delegation of German industrialists demanded Hitler be made chancellor; throughout the war they were making billions; and they were put in trial at Nuremberg for it. I have already provided evidence for all of this. To the contrary when the German revolution happened in 1918, German industrialists funded the freicorps to go about and extra-judicially murder communists like Rosa Luxemburg. What more evidence do you need to see that German industrialist not only saw a friendly face in Nazism, but actively supported it? Frankly this whole discussion makes you come out like a hardcore cold-war relic.

    What you don't seem to understand is that capitalist crisis generates critisism; of these one is revolutionary (communism) which advocates for the ovethrow of capitalism. The other is not, and works to protect capitalism and its interests by jailing, killing or otherwise oppressing those who advocate for capitalist overthrow. Fascism has always operated this way and to deny this is simply unsupportable by historical facts.
    It was never denied that the NSDAP collaborated with industrialists. On the contrary, the convergence of interests between industrialists and the party has been repeatedly acknowledged. What was challenged was the attempt to argue the following: (1) that the collaboration serves as a meaningful indictment of international capitalism; (2) that capitalism was the proximate cause of the war and; (3) that the NSDAP was ideologically committed to capitalism.

    See again:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    The Second World War was not caused by capitalism. If anything, it was caused by the NSDAP’s desire to break away from systems of international finance, global trade and free enterprise, all of which were characterized as Jewish control mechanisms. The party attempted to achieve national self-sufficiency (autarky) via a centrally planned, Alexandrian scale conquest of eastern Europe, the purpose of which was to provide the Reich with agricultural and fuel security.

    The party’s alliance with the industrialists was one of convenience, not ideology (as is plainly evidenced by Nazi theory dating back to the early 1920’s). Here is a brief video on that. The initial purpose of the alignment was to resist the internal communist threat, but later the Nazis viewed it as the most expedient route to rapid militarization (in a manner not dissimilar to Lenin’s use of the NEP to protect the Bolsheviks takeover). The purpose of industrial sales was never to satisfy the interests of the corporate elite; it was an act of short-termism intended to maximize the rearmament effort. Even so, by 1944-45, the German war machine had been almost entirely nationalized.
    That means that US imperialist ventures are also not justified by the false claim they are defensive in nature, correct? You are holding up a double standard here; you can't be accusing of the Soviets without accusing the West of the same thing. If you were to condemn imperialism in general, then we'd be in agreement. I also wrote that the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact is evil besides it's practical uses, which you seem to forget. But you use a blind view of imperialism as if it were only coming from the Soviets, to prove they were the same as the Nazis. That's complete nonsense, sorry.
    No such claim was made, nor would it be relevant to the discussion. The purpose of commenting on Soviet collaboration with the NSDAP was to expose the selective standards on display, not to provide a general commentary on imperialism. US foreign policy during the interwar period was largely isolationist and it did not include imperialist collaboration with the Nazi government.

    PS. I see your accusation of whataboutism, and raise you with soft-core Holocaust negation and denial. You both have been trivializing German war crimes, comparing them to the "much more horrible" Soviet ones for a while now.

    See? I know how to search wikipedia, too. Can we get back to actual debating now?
    I have not once minimized or trivialized the Holocaust, nor, despite the fabricated quotation, stated that Soviet crimes were more egregious. This conversation is over.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; August 21, 2021 at 06:47 AM. Reason: Off-topic.



  7. #7
    Kritias's Avatar Petite bourgeois
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    Default Re: Capitalism and the Second World War cont.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    I have not once minimized or trivialized the Holocaust, nor, despite the fabricated quotation, stated that Soviet crimes were more egregious. This conversation is over.
    Over two threads and multiple posts, both you and Heathen Hammer have claimed that Nazis are similar to Marxists and socialists. Not only Soviets in particular, which is also an egregious lie, but socialists in general. To do so you have denied important events and have cherry-picked arguments from Nazi apologists and have even posted Nazi propaganda like the 25 points. Your whole argumentation lies in the Nazi Germany=Soviet Union equation, by which you deny the uniqueness of the Nazi atrocities, including the Holocaust. If that's not a clear-cut case of Nazi apologism, I don't know what it is. Do better.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    The purpose of appeasement was to maintain the balance of power in Europe without triggering a war with Germany. The Chamberlain government was willing to sacrifice Versailles and the Sudetenland to achieve that. Had it done nothing, the outcome would not have changed. Refusing to intercede militarily on another country's behalf and/or making a final territorial concession is dissimilar to actively collaborating with another imperial power to annex foreign territory (i.e. Molotov-Ribbentrop).
    No, sunshine. The point of appeasement was to re-direct Nazi imperialism from the west. Had Chamberlain done something, like declaring war on Germany in 1938, millions of lives would have been saved. You also deny the fact that the Soviet Union had been desperately trying to form an anti-Nazi coalition in Europe, first by signing a mutual defense pact with France (1936), a defensive pact with Czechoslovakia (1936), which the French broke by abandoning the Czechs on Munich in 1938, and trying to include Britain and France in an alliance as late as 1939. Only when the Western powers stubbornly refused to deal with the Nazi threat and cut deals with Hitler did the Soviets signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. I've already proved this to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    The claim that the intention of appeasement was to direct Nazi "imperialism eastward" is false. The NSDAP's focus was already on eastward expansion and its eastward expansion was ultimately what caused the Anglo-French declaration of war via the guarantee on Poland.
    See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    It was never denied that the NSDAP collaborated with industrialists. On the contrary, the convergence of interests between industrialists and the party has been repeatedly acknowledged. What was challenged was the attempt to argue the following: (1) that the collaboration serves as a meaningful indictment of international capitalism; (2) that capitalism was the proximate cause of the war and; (3) that the NSDAP was ideologically committed to capitalism.
    What is this, then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    It was that the war economy, (and esp. total mobilization) could not reasonably be described as “capitalist”.

    As per my initial post, the expected fruits of Nazi imperialism (which both necessitated a centrally-planned economy and envisioned a vast land redistribution scheme) did constitute the backbone of the party’s “long-standing economic doctrine”. The NSDAP’s domination of the industrial sector (which was integral to this strategy) was so extensive that it cannot be said to have been under the control of market forces, much less operating privately....It's interesting that Soviet Union is viewed as entitled to to collaborate with the NSDAP in “self-defence” (including on imperialist projects), but the same excuse is not afforded to German companies/subsidiaries many of which would likely have collapsed (if not worse) had they refused to cooperate with the NSDAP. Predictably the credit arrangement based on Reichsmarks between Nazi Germany and the USSR (which presumably counts as “capitalism”) is also overlooked.
    You don't outright deny collaboration - you just apologize for it, by saying these poor industrialists would go broke if they did things differently. Would Ford also go broke if they didn't collaborate with the Nazis? Please. When I've been showing you not only they did support Hitler, they made the bigs bucks from the war and they were tried for it at Nuremberg. You also deny Nazi economic doctrine of privatizing everything for the benefit of Big Business, which has also been proven to you. The fact remains that a) capitalists funded, supported and demanded Hitler be made Chancellor; b) that German and other companies made huge amounts of money in the war, and some were tried and convicted for it (like IG Farben); c) that Nazi economic doctrine was unbridled capitalism, even making a crime to not follow your boss' whims as Morticia proved to you; d) capitalists throughout occupied Europe made fortunes collaborating with the Nazis, like in the case of Renault and others.

    I'm not claiming that Nazism=capitalism. I'm claiming that capitalists will not take moral considerations if they can make the big bucks, which is precisely what they did. Stop turning my argument into a strawman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    No such claim was made, nor would it be relevant to the discussion. The purpose of commenting on Soviet collaboration with the NSDAP was to expose the selective standards on display, not to provide a general commentary on imperialism. US foreign policy during the interwar period was largely isolationist and it did not include imperialist collaboration with the Nazi government.
    Please, you aren't fooling anybody. Your argument is that Nazis=Marxists and Socialists. To prove this you have cherry-picked events to construct your argument, clearly downplaying the monstrocity that the Nazi regime was by comparing it to things you have judged are 'similar'. Selective standards is everything you have done so far in this argument.
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  8. #8
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Capitalism and the Second World War cont.

    Its funny, how some still aequate Nationalsocialism with Socialism. That's absolutely wrong and ignoring historical facts.

    The german socialdemocrats and the german communists were the arch enemies of the Nazis.

    The speech of Otto Wels against the Passage of the "Enabling Act" from March 23, 1933:

    "Ladies and gentlemen! We Social Democrats agree with the foreign policy demand raised by the Reich Chancellor of equal treatment for Germany, [and do so] all the more emphatically since we have always fundamentally championed it. In this context, I may be permitted the personal remark that I was the first German who stood up to the untruth of Germany’s guilt for the outbreak of the world war before an international forum, at the Bern Conference on February 3, 1919. Never was a principle of our party able to or did in fact prevent us from representing the just demands of the German nation to the other peoples of the world. The day before yesterday, as well, the Reich Chancellor made a statement in Potsdam to which we subscribe. It says: “From the lunacy of the theory of eternal winners and losers came the madness of reparations and, in their wake, the catastrophe of the world economy.” This statement is true for foreign politics; it is no less true for domestic politics. Here, too, the theory of eternal winners and losers is, as the Reich Chancellor says, lunacy.
    But the words of the Reich Chancellor remind us of others that were spoken in the National Assembly on July 23, 1919. At that time it was said: “We are defenseless; defenseless but not without honor. To be sure, the enemies are after our honor, there is no doubt. However, that this attempt at defamation will one day redound back upon the instigators, that it is not our honor that is being destroyed by this global catastrophe, that is our belief to the last breath.”
    (Interjection from the National Socialists: Who said that?)
    This appears in a declaration that a social democratic-led government issued at the time in the name of the German people before the whole world, four hours before the truce expired, in order to prevent the enemies from marching further. – That declaration is a valuable supplement to the statement by the Reich Chancellor.
    A dictated peace is followed by few blessings, least of all at home. A real national community cannot be based on it. Its first prerequisite is equal law. The government may protect itself against raw excesses of polemics; it may rigorously prevent incitements to acts of violence and acts of violence in and of themselves. This may happen, if it is done toward all sides evenly and impartially, and if one foregoes treating defeated opponents as though they were proscribed. Freedom and life can be taken from us, but not our honor.
    After the persecutions that the Social Democratic Party has suffered recently, no one will reasonably demand or expect that it vote for the Enabling Act proposed here. The elections of March 5 have given the governing parties the majority and thus the possibility of governing in strict adherence to the words and meaning of the constitution. Where such a possibility exists, there is also an obligation to take it. Criticism is salutary and necessary. Never before, since there has been a German Reichstag, has the control of public affairs by the elected representatives of the people been eliminated to such an extent as is happening now, and is supposed to happen even more through the new Enabling Act. Such omnipotence of the government must have all the more serious repercussions inasmuch as the press, too, lacks any freedom of expression.

    Ladies and gentlemen! The situation that prevails in Germany today is often described in glaring colors. But as always in such cases, there is no lack of exaggeration. As far as my party is concerned, I declare here: we have neither asked for intervention in Paris, nor moved millions to Prague, nor spread exaggerated news abroad. It would be easier to stand up to such exaggerations if the kind of reporting that separates truth from falsehood were possible at home. It would be even better if we could attest in good conscience that full protection in justice has been restored for all. That, gentlemen, is up to you.


    The gentlemen of the National Socialist party call the movement they have unleashed a national revolution, not a National Socialist one. So far, the relationship of their revolution to socialism has been limited to the attempt to destroy the social democratic movement, which for more than two generations has been the bearer of socialist ideas and will remain so. If the gentlemen of the National Socialist Party wanted to perform socialist acts, they would not need an Enabling Law. They would be assured of an overwhelming majority in this house. Every motion submitted by them in the interest of workers, farmers, white-collar employees, civil servants, or the middle class could expect to be approved, if not unanimously, then certainly with an enormous majority.
    And yet, they first want to eliminate the Reichstag in order to continue their revolution. But the destruction of that which exists does not make a revolution. The people are expecting positive accomplishments. They are waiting for effective measures against the terrible economic misery that exists not only in Germany but in the whole world. We Social Democrats bore the responsibility in the most difficult of times and for that we had stones cast at us. Our accomplishments for the reconstruction of the state and the economy, for the liberation of occupied territories, will stand the test of history. We have established equal justice for all and a social labor law. We have helped to create a Germany in which the path to leadership of the state is open not only to princes and barons, but also to men from the working class. You cannot back away from that without relinquishing your own leader. The attempt to turn back the wheel of history will be futile. We Social Democrats know that one cannot undo the facts of power politics with mere legal protests. We see the power-political fact of your present rule. But the people’s sense of justice is also a political power, and we shall not cease to appeal to this sense of justice.
    The Weimar Constitution is not a socialist constitution. But we stand by the principles enshrined in, the principles of a state based on the rule of law, of equal rights, of social justice. In this historic hour, we German Social Democrats solemnly pledge ourselves to the principles of humanity and justice, of freedom and socialism. No Enabling Act gives you the power to destroy ideas that are eternal and indestructible. After all, you yourselves have professed your adherence to Socialism. The Socialist Law has not destroyed social democracy. German social democracy will draw new strength also from the latest persecutions.
    We greet the persecuted and the oppressed. We greet our friends in the Reich. Your steadfastness and loyalty deserve admiration. The courage of your convictions and your unbroken optimism guarantee a brighter future.

    Source of original German text: Otto Wels’s Speech against the Passage of the Enabling Act (March 23, 1933), in Paul Meier-Benneckenstein, ed., Dokumente der deutschen Politik, Volume 1: Die Nationalsozialistische Revolution 1933, edited by Axel Friedrichs. Berlin, 1935, pp. 36-38.

    Translation: Thomas Dunlap

    https://ghdi.ghi-dc.org/docpage.cfm?docpage_id=2262

    All delegates of the Communistic party in Germany were already in "protective custody" in the Concentration Camps. Many social democtatic delegates too.

    The not yet arrested social democratic delegates voted as only ones against this law.

    Not a single conservative delegate voted against this law, they voted all for this law.

    After the law passed, the social democratic delegates were arrested too.

    Claiming that National Socialism is the same as Socialism is a slap in the face of some of the first victims of the Nazi Terror and nothing more than a shameful try of white washing conservatives from their collaboration with the Nazis.
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; August 21, 2021 at 12:31 PM.
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    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  9. #9

    Default Re: Capitalism and the Second World War cont.

    Socialists always target other socialists, its kinda like rats in a jar.
    Lenin massacred esers and cadets.
    Stalin massacred trotskyists.
    NSDAP taking out socialist competition isn't really out of ordinary and is actually a typical trait for socialist regimes.

  10. #10
    Kritias's Avatar Petite bourgeois
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    Default Re: Capitalism and the Second World War cont.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Socialists always target other socialists, its kinda like rats in a jar.
    Lenin massacred esers and cadets.
    Stalin massacred trotskyists.
    NSDAP taking out socialist competition isn't really out of ordinary and is actually a typical trait for socialist regimes.
    Conservatives always support fascist governments, it's kinda like two peas in a pot.
    Conservatives supported Franco in Spain.
    Conservatives supported Mussolini in Italy.
    Conservatives supported Hitler in Germany.
    Conservatives supporting the fascists of today, and pining over the Nazis isn't really out of the ordinary and is actually a typical trait for conservatives.

    See? I can make false equivalences, too!
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Capitalism and the Second World War cont.

    Both Western "democracies" and Comintern made treaties and agreements with social nationalist Axis governments.
    The point is that "Hitler wasn't a socialist because he targeted other socialists" is a dumb argument, since pretty much every socialist regime in history went after other socialists.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Capitalism and the Second World War cont.

    Are we still having the "nAzIs ArE sOcIaLiStS, ItS iN tHe NaMe" debate? Fair dinkum, buy a dictionary people.

    Its **** tier trolling to claim Hitler was a commie. No one at the time had any difficulty identifying Hitler's system as different to Stalin's, its sheer historical ignorance to confuse them.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  13. #13

    Default Re: Capitalism and the Second World War cont.

    Remarking upon the fundamental similarities between Bolshevism and Nazism, both in terms of the conditions that fostered their rise at the same time in history, and in their methods and motivations, has nothing to do with Holocaust denial. Like the effort to ascribe the function and core aims of the Nazi state to “capitalism” in particular, as a rhetorical contrast to Soviet Russia, the allegation is a predictable deflection proffered by those who, for whatever reason, have nostalgic and/or ideological sympathies for Soviet Russia and/or auth left regimes in general.

    For example, Jewish political theorist Hannah Arendt studied key angles of those similarities, including anti-Semitism, imperialism and totalitarianism. Entire bodies of academic work stem from her theories on this. The following are excerpts from The Origins of Totalitarianism:

    Internationalism, Pan-Racialism, and the Conspiracy of the “Other”

    It has already been noticed that the Nazis were not simple nationalists. Their nationaUst propaganda was directed toward their fellow-travelers and not their convinced members; the latter, on the contrary, were never al- lowed to lose sight of a consistently supranational approach to politics. Nazi "nationalism" had more than one aspect in common with the recent nationalistic propaganda in the Soviet Union, which is also used only to feed the prejudices of the masses. The Nazis had a genuine and never revoked contempt for the narrowness of nationalism, the provinciaHsm of the nation-state, and they repeated time and again that their "movement," international in scope like the Bolshevik movement, was more important to them than any state, which would necessarily be bound to a specific terri- tory. And not only the Nazis, but fifty years of antiscmitic history, stand as evidence against the identification of antisemitism with nationalism. The first antisemitic parties in the last decades of the nineteenth century were also among the first that banded together internationally. From the very beginning, they called international congresses and were concerned with a co-ordination of international, or at least inter-European, activities.

    Nazism and Bolshevism owe more to Pan-Germanism and Pan-Slavism (respectively) than to any other ideology or political movement. This is most evident in foreign policies, where the strategies of Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia have followed so closely the well-known programs of conquest outlined by the pan-movements before and during the first World War that totalitarian aims have frequently been mistaken for the pursuance of some permanent German or Russian interests. While neither Hitler nor Sialin has ever acknowledged his debt to imperialism in the development of his methods of rule, neither has hesitated to admit his indebtedness to the pan-movements' ideology or to imitate their slogans.

    Pan-Germanism showed itself somewhat superior in organizational theory, insofar as it shrewdly deprived the individual German of all these wondrous qualities if he did not adhere to the movement (thereby foreshadowing the spiteful contempt which Nazism later expressed for the non-Party members of the German people), whereas Pan-Slavism, absorbed deeply in its limitless speculations about the Slav soul, assumed that every Slav consciously or unconsciously possessed such a soul no matter whether he was properly organized or not. It needed Stalin's ruthlessness to introduce into Bolshevism the same con- tempt for the Russian people that the Nazis showed toward the Germans.

    The speed with which the German and Austrian Pan-Germans rallied to Nazism has a parallel in the much slower and more complicated course through which Pan-Slavs finally found out that the liquidation of Lenin's Russian Revolution had been thorough enough to make it possible for them to support Stalin wholeheartedly. That Bolshevism and Nazism at the height of their power outgrew mere tribal nationalism and had little use for those who were still actually convinced of it in principle, rather than as mere propaganda material, was neither the Pan-Germans' nor the Pan-Slavs' fault and hardly checked their enthusiasm.

    The introduction of the notion of "objective enemy" is much more de- cisive for the functioning of totalitarian regimes than the ideological defini- tion of the respective categories. If it were only a matter of hating Jews or bourgeois, the totalitarian regimes could, after the commission of one gi- gantic crime, return, as it were, to the rules of normal life and government. As we know, the opposite is the case. The category of objective enemies outlives the first ideologically determined foes of the movement; new ob- jective enemies are discovered according to changing circumstances: the Nazis, foreseeing the completion of Jewish extermination, had already taken the necessary preliminary steps for the liquidation of the Polish people, while Hitler even planned the decimation of certain categories of Germans;"^ the Bolsheviks, having started with descendants of the former ruling classes, directed their full terror against the kulaks (in the early thirties), who in turn were followed by Russians of Polish origin (between 1936 and 1938), the Tartars and the Volga Germans during the war, former prisoners of war and units of the occupational forces of the Red Army after the war, and Rus- sian Jewry after the establishment of a Jewish state. The choice of such cate- gories is never entirely arbitrary; since they are publicized and used for propaganda purposes of the movement abroad, they must appear plausible as possible enemies; the choice of a particular category may even be due to certain propaganda needs of the movement at large—as for instance the sudden entirely unprecedented emergence of governmental antisemitism in the Soviet Union, which may be calculated to win sympathies for the Soviet Union in the European satellite countries.

    For the immediate predecessor of totalitarian imperialism is not the British, Dutch or French version of overseas colonial rule, but the German, Austrian and Russian version of a continental imperialism which never actually suc- ceeded, and therefore is neglected by students of imperialism, but which in the form of the so-called pan-movements—pan-Germanism and pan-Slavism—was a very potent political force in Central and Eastern Europe. Not only does totalitarianism, nazism no less than bolshevism, owe a heavy debt to pan-Germanism and pan-Slavism in matters of ideology and organization; their expansion program, though global in scope and thereby distinguished from those of the pan-movements, follows the aims of continental imperi- alism. The main point here is that the strategy of expansion follows geo- graphic continuity and extends from a power center to a widening periphery which then is supposed to gravitate "naturally" toward its center. This co- hesive extension could of course never have tolerated a dichotomy between home government and colonial rule; and since continental imperialism in- tended to found its "empire" in Europe itself, it did not depend upon a color line to distinguish between "higher and lower breeds"; instead it pro- posed to treat European peoples as colonials under the rule of a master race of Germanic or Slavic origin.


    The rise of the Nazi and Bolshevik movements owe great success to mass organization of people, specifically built on the in-group/out-group dynamic. Both leveraged latent pan-racial sentiments and alienation from capital as the primary vehicles for this. The Jewish banker and the bourgeois capitalist are synonymous tropes in all but name, whose silent hand working behind the scenes to nefariously manipulate human civilization is explained by the material interests inherent to his mere existence as a group or class, and from whose designs the righteous movement born of an awakened consciousness must liberate the oppressed class. By speaking to these motifs, the Nazis and Bolsheviks were able to translate their contempt for the traditional European nation state and class hierarchy into emotional appeals that resonated with their respective audiences as the groundwork for an internationalist movement.

    The One Party State and the Internationalist Movement

    The fact that the seizure of power by the Nazis was usually identified with such a one-party dictatorship merely showed how much political thinking was still rooted in the old established patterns, and how little the people were prepared for what really was to come. The only typically modern aspect of the Fascist party dictatorship is that here, too, the party insisted that it was a movement; that it was nothing of the kind, but merely usurped the slogan "movement" in order to attract the masses, became evident as soon as it seized the state machine without drastically changing the power structure of the country, being content to fill ail gov- ernment positions with party members. It was precisely through the iden- tification of the party with the state, which both the Nazis and the Bolsheviks have always carefully avoided, that the party ceased to be a "movement" and became tied to the basically stable structure of the state.

    The difference between Fascism and the totalitarian movements is best illustrated by their attitude toward the army, thatis, toward the na- tional institution par excellence. In contrast to the Nazis and the Bolsheviks, who destroyed the spirit of the army by subordinating it to the political commissars or totalitarian elite formations, the Fascists could use such intensely nationalist instruments as the army, with which they identified themselves as they had identified themselves with the state. They wanted a Fascist state and a Fascist army, but still an army and a state; only in Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia army and state became subordinated functions of the movement.

    Neither National Socialism nor Bolshevism has ever proclaimed a new form of government or asserted that its goals were reached with the seizure of power and the control of the state machinery. Their idea of domination was something that no state and no mere apparatus of violence can ever achieve, but only a movement that is constantly kept in motion: namely, the permanent domination of each single individual in each and every
    sphere of life. The seizure of power through the means of violence is never an end in itself but only the means to an end, and the seizure of power in any given country is only a welcome transitory stage but never the end of the movement. The practical goal of the movement is to organize as mariy pciiplc as possible within its framework and to set and keep them in motion; a political goal that would constitute the end of the movement simply does not exist.

    When a movement, international in organization, all-comprehensive in its ideological scope, and global in its political aspiration, seizes power in one country, it obviously puts itself in a paradoxical situation. The socialist movement was spared this crisis, first, because the national question—and that meant the strategical problem involved in the revolution—had been curiously neglected by Marx and Engels, and, secondly, because it faced governmental problems only after the first World War had divested the Sec- ond International of its authority over the national members, which every- where had accepted the primacy of national sentiments over international solidarity as an unalterable fact. In other words, when the time came for the socialist movements to seize power in their respective countries, they had already been transformed into national parties.

    This transformation never occurred in the totalitarian, the Bolshevik and the Nazi movements. At the time it seized power the danger to the move- ment lay in the fact that, on one hand, it might become "ossified" by taking over the state machine and frozen into a form of absolute government,^ and that, on the other hand, its freedom of movement might be limited by the borders of the territory in which it came to power. To a totalitarian movement, both dangers are equally deadly: a development toward abso- lutism would put an end to the movement's interior drive, and a develop- ment toward nationalism would frustrate its exterior expansion, without which the movement cannot survive. The form of government the two movements developed, or, rather, which almost automatically developed from their double claim to total domination and global rule, is best char- acterized by Trotsky's slogan of "permanent revolution" although Trotsky's theory was no more than a socialist forecast of a series of revolutions, from the antifeudal bourgeois to the antibourgeois proletarian, which would spread from one country to the other.^ Only the term itself suggests "per-mancncy." with all its semi-anarchistic implications, and is, strictly speak- ing, a misnomer; yet even Lenin was more impressed by the term than by its theoretical content. In the Soviet Union, at any rate, revolutions, in the form of general purges, became a permanent institution of the Stalin regime after 1934.'' Here, as in other instances, Stalin concentrated his attacks on Trotsky's half-forgotten slogan precisely because he had decided to use this technique.' In Nazi Germany, a similar tendency toward per- manent revolution was clearly discernible though the Nazis not have time to realize it to the same extent. Characteristically enough, their "per- manent revolution" also started with the liquidation of the party faction which had dared to proclaim openly the "next stage of the revolution"


    Both Nazism and Bolshevism subjugated the nation state and its functions to the demands of the ideological movement and its international designs. That they in fact usurped and replaced their respective predecessor regimes rather than reoriented the concept of the state itself was as pragmatic as it was useful to keep the eternal struggle against “the other” alive and growing. Neither would presume to be satisfied by the mere achievement of power at any regional or national level, regardless of the facade presented to outsiders. The common goal was international, global domination as a necessary prerequisite to truly realize their ultimate aim of liberation from the existing world order. This, as well as the material demands of empowering their respective states, formed the justification for the imperialist territorial expansionism of the Nazi and Soviet regimes, and the relentless elimination of political enemies wherever expansion was achieved - even at the expense of more practical priorities.

    Dogma, the In Group, and the Struggle Against the Other

    The attraction of evil and crime for the mob mentality is nothing new. It has always been true that the mob will greet "deeds of violence with the admiring remark: it may be mean but it is very clever."" The disturbing factor in the success of totalitarianism is rather the true selflessness of its adherents: it may be understandable that a Nazi or Bolshevik will not be shaken in his conviction by crimes against people who do not belong to the movement or are even hostile to it; but the amazing fact is that neither is he likely to waver when the monster begins to devour its own children and not even if he becomes a victim of persecution himself, if he is framed and condemned, if he is purged from the party and sent to a forced-labor or a concentration camp. On the contrary, to the wonder of the whole civilized world, he may even be willing to help in his own prosecution and frame his own death sentence if only his status as a member of the move- ment is not touched.

    More specific in totalitarian propaganda, however, than direct threats and crimes against individuals is the use of indirect, veiled, and menacing hints against all who will not heed its teachings and, later, mass murder perpe- trated on "guilty" and "innocent" alike. People are threatened by Commu- nist propaganda with missing the train of history, with remaining hopelessly behind their time, with spending their lives uselessly, just as they were threat- ened by the Nazis with living against the eternal laws of nature and life, with an irreparable and mysterious deterioration of their blood. The strong emphasis of totalitarian propaganda on the "scientific" nature of its asser- tions has been compared to certain advertising techniques which also ad- dress themselves to masses. And it is true that the advertising columns of every newspaper show this "scientificality," by which a manufacturer proves with facts and figures and the help of a "research" department that his is the "best soap in the world."" It is also true that there is a certain element of violence in the imaginative exaggerations of publicity men, that behind the assertion that girls who do not use this particular brand of soap may go through life with pimples and without a husband, lies the wild dream of monopoly, the dream that one day the manufacturer of the "only soap that prevents pimples" may have the power to deprive of husbands all girls who do not use his soap. Science in the instances of both business publicity and totalitarian propaganda is obviously only a surrogate for power. The obses- sion of totalitarian movements with "scientific" proofs ceases once they are in power. The Nazis dismissed even those scholars who were willing to serve them, and the Bolsheviks use the reputation of their scientists for entirely unscientific purposes and force them into the role of charlatans.

    While it has been the specialty of Nazi propaganda to profit from the longmg of the masses for consistency, Bolshevik methods have demon- strated, as though in a laboratory, its impact on the isolated mass man. The Soviet secret police, so eager to convince its victims of their guiU for crimes they never committed, and in many instances were in no position to com- mit, completely isolates and eliminates all real factors, so that the very logic, the very consistency of "the story" contained in the prepared confession becomes overwhelming. In a situation where the dividing line between fiction and reality is blurred by the monstrosity and the inner consistency of the accusation, not only the strength of character to resist constant threats but great confidence in the existence of fellow human beings—rela- tives or friends or neighbors—who will never believe "the story" are required to resist the temptation to yield to the mere abstract possibility of guilt.
    To be sure, this extreme of an artificially fabricated insanity can be achieved only in a totalitarian world. Then, however, it is part of the propa- ganda apparatus of the totalitarian regimes to which confessions are not indispensable for punishment. "Confessions" are as much a specialty of Bolshevik propaganda as the curious pedantry of legalizing crimes by retro- spective and retroactive legislation was a specialty of Nazi propaganda. The aim in both cases is consistency.

    It is interesting that even in their beginnings the Nazis were prudent enough never to use slogans which, like democracy, republic, dictatorship, or monarchy, indicated a specific form of government. It is as though, in this one matter, they had always known that they would be entirely original. Every discussion about the actual form of their future government could be dismissed as empty talk about mere formalities—the state, according to Hitler, being only a "means" for the conservation of the race, as the state, according to Bolshevik propaganda, is only an instrument in the struggle of classes

    The stubbornness with which totalitarian dictators have clung to their original lies in the face of absurdity is more than superstitious gratitude to what turned the trick, and, at least in the case of Stalin, cannot be explained by the psychology of the liar whose very success may make him his own last victim. Once these propaganda slogans are integrated into a "living organiza- tion," they cannot be safely eliminated without wrecking the whole structure. The assumption of a Jewish world conspiracy was transformed by totali- tarian propaganda from an objective, arguable matter into the chief element of the Nazi reality; the point was that the Nazis acted as though the world were dominated by the Jews and needed a counterconspiracy to defend itself. Racism for them was no longer a debatable theory of dubious scientific value, but was being realized every day in the functioning hierarchy of a political organization in whose framework it would have been very "unreal- istic" to question it. Similarly, Bolshevism no longer needs to win an argu- ment about class struggle, internationalism, and unconditional dependence of the welfare of the proletariat on the welfare of the Soviet Union; the functioning organization of the Comintern is more convincing than any argument or mere ideology can ever be.

    The front organizations surround the movements' membership with a protective wall which separates them from the outside, normal world; at the same time, they form a bridge back into normalcy, without which the members in the prepower stage would feel too sharply the differences be- tween their beliefs and those of normal people, between the lying fictitious- ness of their own and the reality of the normal world. The ingeniousness of this device during the movements' struggle for power is that the front or- ganizations not only isolate the members but offer them a semblance of out- side normalcy which wards of! the impact of true reality more etifectively than mere indoctrination. It is the difference between his own and the fel- low-traveler's attitudes which confirms a Nazi or Bolshevik in his belief in the fictitious explanation of the world, for the fellow-traveler has the same convictions, after all, albeit in a more "normal," i.e., less fanatic, more confused form; so that to the party member it appears that anyone whom the movement has not expressly singled out as an enemy (a Jew, a capi- talist, etc.) is on his side, that the world is full of secret allies who merely cannot, as yet, summon up the necessary strength of mind and character to draw the logical conclusions from their own convictions."^

    With secret so- cieties, the totalitarian movements also share the dichotomous division of the world between "sworn blood brothers" and an indistinct inarticulate mass of sworn enemies."^ This distinction, based on absolute hostility to the sur- rounding world, is very different from the ordinary parties' tendency to divide people into those who belong and those who don't. Parties and open societies in general will consider only those who expressly oppose them to be their enemies, while it has always been the principle of secret societies that "whosoever is not expressly included is excluded." ^^ This esoteric prin- ciple seems to be entirely inappropriate for mass organizations; yet the Nazis gave their members at least the psychological equivalent for the ini- tiation ritual of secret societies when, instead of simply excluding Jews, from membership, they demanded proof of non-Jewish descent from their mem- bers and set up a complicated machine to shed light on the dark ancestry of some 80 million Germans. It was of course a comedy, and even an ex- pensive one, when 80 million Germans set out to look for Jewish grand- fathers; yet everybody came out of the examination with the feeling that he belonged to a group of included which stood against an imaginary multi- tude of ineligibles. The same principle is confirmed in the Bolshevik move- ment through repeated party purges which inspire in everybody who is not excluded a reaffirmation of his inclusion.

    These similarities are not, of course, accidental; they cannot simply be explained by the fact that both Hitler and Stalin had been members of modern secret societies before they became totalitarian leaders — Hitler in the secret service of the Reichswehr and Stalin in the conspiracy section of the Bolshevik party. They are to some extent the natural outcome of the conspiracy fiction of totalitarianism whose organizations supposedly have been founded to counteract secret societies—the secret society of the Jews or the conspiratory society of the Trotskyites. What is remarkable in the to- talitarian organizations is rather that they could adopt so many organiza- tional devices of secret societies without ever trying to keep their own goal a secret. That the Nazis wanted to conquer the world, deport "racially alien" peoples and exterminate those of "inferior biological heritage," that the Bolsheviks work for the world revolution, was never a secret; these aims, on the contrary, were always part of their propaganda. In other words, the totalitarian movements imitate all the paraphernalia of the secret so- cieties but empty them of the only thing that could excuse, or was sup-modern secret societies before they became totalitarian leaders
    posed to excuse, their methods—the necessity to safeguard a secret.

    In this, as in so many other respects, Nazism and Bolshevism arrived at the same organizational result from very different historical beginnings. The Nazis started with the fiction of a conspiracy and modeled themselves, more or less consciously, after the example of the secret society of the Elders of Zion. whereas the Bolsheviks came from a revolutionary party, whose aim was one-party dictatorship, passed through a stage in which the party was "entirely apart and above everything" to the moment when the Politburo of the party was "entirely apart from and above everything";'**' finally Stalin imposed upon this party structure the rigid totalitarian rules of its conspiratory sector and only then discovered the need for a central fiction to maintain the iron discipline of a secret society under the conditions of a mass organization. The Nazi development may be more logical, more con- sistent in itself, but the history of the Bolshevik party offers a better illus- tration of the essentially fictitious character of totalitarianism, precisely because the fictitious global conspiracies against and according to which the Bolshevik conspiracy is supposedly organized have not been ideologically fixed. They have changed—from the Trotskyites to the 300 families, then to various "imperialisms" and recently to "rootless cosmopolitanism"—and were adjusted to passing needs; yet at no moment and under none of the most various circumstances has it been possible for Bolshevism to do with- out some such fiction.

    Totalitarian movements have proved time and again that they can com- mand the same total loyalty in life and death which had been the prerogative of secret and conspiratory societies.^''^ The complete absence of resistance in a thoroughly trained and armed troop like the SA in the face of the mur- der of a beloved leader (Rohm) and hundreds of close comrades was a curious spectacle. At that moment probably Rohm, and not Hitler, had the power of the Reichswehr behind him. But these incidents in the Nazi movement have by now been overshadowed by the ever-repeated spectacle of self-confessed "criminals" in the Bolshevik parties. Trials based on absurd confessions have become part of an internally all-important and externally incomprehensible ritual. But, no matter how the victims are being prepared today, this ritual owes its existence to the probably unfabricated confessions of the old Bolshevik guard in 1936. Long feefore the time of the Moscow Trials men condemned to death would receive their sentences with great calm, an attitude "particularly prevalent among members of the Cheka." ^^^ So long as the movement exists, its peculiar form of organization makes sure that at least the elite formations can no longer conceive of a life outside the closely knit band of men who, even if they are condemned, still feel superior to the rest of the uninitiated world. And since this organization's exclusive aim has always been to deceive and fight and uUimately conquer the outside world, its members are satisfied to pay with their lives if only this helps again to fool the world.

    The only group supposed to believe loyally and textually in the Leader's words are the sympathizers whose confidence surrounds the movement with an atmosphere of honesty and simple-mindedness, and helps the Leader to fulfill half his task, that is, to inspire confidence in the movement. The party members never believe public statements and are not supposed to, but are complimented by totalitarian propaganda on that superior intelligence which supposedly distinguishes them from the nontotalitarian outside world, which, in turn, they know only from the abnormal gullibility of sympathizers. Only Nazi sympathizers believed Hitler when he swore his famous legality oath before the supreme court of the Weimar Republic; members of the movement knew very well that he lied, and trusted him more than ever be- cause he apparently was able to fool public opinion and the authorities. When in later years Hitler repeated the performance for the whole world, when he swore to his good intentions and at the same time most openly pre- pared his crimes, the admiration of the Nazi membership naturally was boundless. Similarly, only Bolshevik fellow-travelers believed in the dissolu- tion of the Comintern, and only the nonorganized masses of the Russian people and the fellow-travelers abroad were meant to take at face value Stalin's prodemocratic statements during the war. Bolshevik party members were explicitly warned not to be fooled by tactical maneuvers and were asked to admire their Leader's shrewdness in betraying his allies.


    In Nazism and Bolshevism, the absolute power of the Party was as crucial to its preservation as it was to the identity of its membership. The religious zeal of absolute ideological and moral clarity formed a powerful organizational and enforcement tool. Membership was an honor to be aspired to; expulsion a fate on par with excommunication from God. Even the cruelest of punishments under the flimsiest of pretenses was tolerated by the membership at large, as both a protection from the ever present evils of subversion, and a necessary affirmation of the righteousness of the Party and those who remained true to its cause.

    Without such draconian vigilance, not only will the moral purity of the elect be cheapened, but the wiles of Devil, the Jew, the Capitalist, will surely exploit such weakness to undermine and destroy the faithful and their holy mission. Those closest to the Leader (like the Leader himself) are relatively unburdened by such scruples, as they are chosen for their loyalty and proximity to power, rather than their ideological conviction per se. While ideological enforcement keeps the membership in line and fuels the fire with which it is propagated, it is merely a tool to those who wield the power.

    Ideology and the Incorporeality of Power

    The only rule of which everybody in a totalitarian state may be sure is that the more visible government agencies are, the less power they carry, and the less is known of the existence of an institution, the more powerful it will ultimately turn out to be. According to this rule, the Soviets, recog- nized by a written constitution as the highest authority of the state, have less power than the Bolshevik party; the Bolshevik party, which recruits its members openly and is recognized as the ruling class, has less power than the secret police. Real power begins where secrecy begins. In this respect the Nazi and the Bolshevik states were very much alike; their difference lay chiefly in the monopolization and centralization of secret police services in Himmler on one hand, and the maze of apparently unrelated and uncon- nected police activities in Russia on the other.

    If one considers these last years of Nazi rule and their version of a "five- year plan," which they had no time to carry out but which aimed at the extermination of the Polish and Ukrainian people, of 170 million Russians (as mentioned in one plan), the intelligentsia of Western Europe such as the Dutch and the people of Alsace and Lorraine, as well as of all those Germans who would be disqualified under the prospective Reich health bill or the planned "community alien law," the analogy to the Bolshevik five-year plan of 1929, the first year of clear-cut totalitarian dictatorship in Russia, is al- most inescapable. Vulgar eugenic slogans in one case, high-sounding eco- nomic phrases in the other, were the prelude to "a piece of prodigious insanity, in which all rules of logic and principles of economics were turned upside down.""'

    The assumption that Nazi law was binding beyond the German border and the punishment of non-Germans were more than mere devices of op- pression. Totalitarian regimes are not afraid of the logical implications of world conquest even if they work the other way around and are detrimental to their own peoples' interests. Logically, it is indisputable that a plan for world conquest involves the abolition of differences between the conquering mother country and the conquered territories, as well as the difference be- tween foreign and domestic politics, upon which all existing nontotalitarian institutions and all international intercourse are based. If the totalitarian conqueror conducts himself everywhere as though he were at home, by the same token he must treat his own population as though he were a foreign conqueror.'" And it is perfectly true that the totalitarian movement seizes power in much the same sense as a foreign conqueror may occupy a coun- try which he governs not for its own sake but for the benefit of something or somebody else. The Nazis behaved like foreign conquerors in Germany when, against all national interests, they tried and half succeeded in con- verting their defeat into a final catastrophe for the whole German people; similarly in case of victory, they intended to extend their extermination politics into the ranks of "racially unfit" Germans.*^<'

    A similar attitude seems to have inspired Soviet foreign policy after the war.
    The cost of its aggressiveness to the Russian people themselves is prohibitive: it has foregone the great postwar loan from the United States which would have enabled Russia to reconstruct devastated areas and in- dustrialize the country in a rational, productive way. The extension of Comintern governments throughout the Balkans and the occupation of large Eastern territories brought no tangible benefits, but on the contrary strained Russian resources still further. But this policy certainly served the interests of the Bolshevik movement, which has spread over almost half of the inhabited world.

    Even before the movement seizes power, it possesses a secret police and spy service with branches in various countries. Later its agents receive more money and authority than the regular military intelligence service and are frequently the secret chiefs of embassies and consulates abroad.**'* Its main tasks consist in forming fifth columns, directing the branches of the move- ment, influencing the domestic policies of the respective countries, and gen- erally preparing for the time when the totalitarian ruler—after overthrow of the government or military victory—can openly feel at home. In other words, the international branches of the secret police are the transmission belts which constantly transform the ostensibly foreign policy of the to- talitarian state into the potentially domestic business of the totalitarian movement.

    These functions, however, which the secret police fulfill in order to pre- pare the totalitarian Utopia of world rule, are secondary to those required for the present realization of the totalitarian fiction in one country. The dom- inant role of the secret police in the domestic politics of totalitarian coun- tries has naturally contributed much to the common misconception of totali- tarianism. All despotisms rely heavily on secret services and feel more threatened by their own than by any foreign people. However, this analogy between totalitarianism and despotism holds only for the first stages of to- talitarian rule, when there is still a political opposition. In this as in other respects totalitarianism takes advantage of, and gives conscious support to, nontotalitarian misconceptions, no matter how uncomplimentary they may be. Himmler, in his famous speech to the Reichswehr staff in 1937, assumed the role of an ordinary tyrant when he explained the constant expansion of the police forces by assuming the existence of a "fourth theater in case of war, internal Germany."**" Similarly, Stalin at almost the same moment half succeeded in convincing the old Bolshevik guard, whose "confessions" he needed, of a war threat against the Soviet Union and, consequently, an emergency in which the country must remain united even behind a despot. The most striking aspect of these statements was that both were made after all political opposition had been extinguished, that the secret services were expanded when actually no opponents were left to be spied upon. When war came, Himmler neither needed nor used his SS troops in Germany it- self, except for the running of concentration camps and policing of foreign slave labor; the bulk of the armed SS served at the Eastern front where they were used for "special assignments"—usually mass murder—and the en- forcement of policy which frequently ran counter to the military as well as the Nazi civilian hierarchy. Like the secret police of the Soviet Union, the SS formations usually arrived after the military forces had pacified the con- quered territory and had dealt with outright political opposition.

    In the interpretation of totalitarianism, all laws have become laws of movement. When the Nazis talked about the law of nature or when the Bolsheviks talk about the law of history, neither nature nor history is any longer the stabilizing source of authority for the actions of mortal men; they are movements in themselves. Underlying the Nazis' belief in race laws as the expression of the law of nature in man, is Darwin's idea of man as the product of a natural development which does not necessarily stop with the present species of human beings, just as under the Bolsheviks' belief in class-struggle as the expression of the law of history lies Marx's notion of society as the product of a gigantic historical movement which races according to its own law of motion to the end of historical times when it will abolish itself.


    What makes the claim that the Nazi regime was particularly “capitalist” so nonsensical aren’t just the obvious contradictions exposing the sophistry of such an idea. It’s that both Nazism and Bolshevism were antithetical to the basic characteristics of capitalism, ideologically and functionally. Everyone and everything was subservient to the state, and the state was subservient to the Party. Their fundamental motivations and aims represented a rejection of capitalism - of the rule of law, of competitive markets, the sanctity of property rights, of voluntary association etc. The idea that privatization in 1930s Nazi Germany made it “capitalist” is precisely the kind of intellectual dishonesty and apologism proponents of this nonsense ascribe to their detractors.

    Privatization was undertaken as a way to further the power of the Nazi Party by gaining support from and rewarding the beneficiaries of the program. Majority shares in formerly state owned enterprises were “sold” to loyal party members and supporters for the express purpose of ensuring the Party controlled the economic and social levers of the German state. As Arendt notes above:

    The only rule of which everybody in a totalitarian state may be sure is that the more visible government agencies are, the less power they carry, and the less is known of the existence of an institution, the more powerful it will ultimately turn out to be.
    By carving up economic sectors amongst its membership/supporters through political cartels, the Nazis and Soviets ensured their power was omnipresent. Centralized control was enforced through political terror as much in Nazi Germany as in Soviet Russia.

    This paper argues that economic planning under Stalin and Hitler in the 1930s was essentially similar, both in process and outcome. Both economies had fixed prices and used coercion as part of a rather chaotic process of resource allocation; consumption in both countries was sacrificed to investment in heavy industry. Both economies can be thought of as socialist, and socialism in the 1930s was hardly more than military mobilization.

    Both systems used taxes and subsidies as part of their direction of the economy. But taxes and subsidies were not enough to do the job. They had to be supplemented by coercion. The Nazis allowed enterprises more freedom to respond to financial incentives and could use terror more selectively as a result. The Soviets targeted managers with bonuses, but had to supplement them with wholesale punishments to keep people in line. Or maybe the Soviets did not have to use this much terror; it was Stalin's paranoia that took control.

    https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/han...onom00temi.pdf
    The Nazis and Soviets did not seek to create wealth or facilitate class interests. They sought to use these as a means to further the goal of world domination through subversion and conquest. They behaved as foreign occupiers as much within their own states as those they sought to assimilate, systematically breaking down and eliminating anyone or anything that was said to threaten the success of their glorious movements - Kulaks, Poles, political dissidents, former elites, Jews, Tartars, Volga Germans….. millions slaughtered under the pretext of high-handed appeals to eugenics, economic efficiency, and righteous liberation.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; August 21, 2021 at 05:52 PM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  14. #14
    Kritias's Avatar Petite bourgeois
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    Default Re: Capitalism and the Second World War cont.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Are we still having the "nAzIs ArE sOcIaLiStS, ItS iN tHe NaMe" debate? Fair dinkum, buy a dictionary people.

    Its **** tier trolling to claim Hitler was a commie. No one at the time had any difficulty identifying Hitler's system as different to Stalin's, its sheer historical ignorance to confuse them.
    Heathen isn't confusing Nazis and socialists by accident. He just wishes so much these two were the same to support his worldview. His whole gimmick is to keep repeating the same argument, no matter how many times he is debunked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Both Western "democracies" and Comintern made treaties and agreements with social nationalist Axis governments.The point is that "Hitler wasn't a socialist because he targeted other socialists" is a dumb argument, since pretty much every socialist regime in history went after other socialists.
    The point is you desperately want to equate Hitler with socialists, buddy. Which is why you deny that Nazis had a racist, nativist and militarist ideology that has nothing to do with socialism.
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    Default Re: Capitalism and the Second World War cont.

    All socialist regimes had militarist ideology and most non-Western ones had nativist and somewhat racist ideology as well.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Capitalism and the Second World War cont.

    @Legio_Italica

    Thanks for one of the best posts I've seen in the D&D in recent memory. There's nothing more to add except a short comment on the first paragraph.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Remarking upon the fundamental similarities between Bolshevism and Nazism, both in terms of the conditions that fostered their rise at the same time in history, and in their methods and motivations, has nothing to do with Holocaust denial. Like the effort to ascribe the function and core aims of the Nazi state to “capitalism” in particular, as a rhetorical contrast to Soviet Russia, the allegation is a predictable deflection proffered by those who, for whatever reason, have nostalgic and/or ideological sympathies for Soviet Russia and/or auth left regimes in general.
    The denialist accusation (while an expected ad hominem) is particularly misplaced in my case given my heritage, repeated denunciations of anti-Semitism, explicit acknowledgements of National Socialism's extreme racism and stated belief that the Holocaust constituted the worst atrocity in history.

    See for instance:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    Given the breadth of the war, the threat it posed to civilization and the historic atrocities committed by the Axis and Japanese, framing the western Allies as hypocritical is contemptible, revisionist nonsense. Not even the USSR was guilty of anything remotely comparable to the industrialized murder of ~10m people for no strategic purpose whatsoever.
    Last edited by Cope; August 21, 2021 at 06:14 PM.



  17. #17
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Capitalism and the Second World War cont.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kritias View Post
    Conservatives always support fascist governments, it's kinda like two peas in a pot.
    Conservatives supported Franco in Spain.
    Conservatives supported Mussolini in Italy.
    Conservatives supported Hitler in Germany.
    Conservatives supporting the fascists of today, and pining over the Nazis isn't really out of the ordinary and is actually a typical trait for conservatives.

    See? I can make false equivalences, too!
    Except Lenin really did kill SR's and Mensheviks. Stalin really did kill Leninists and Trotskites and all other flavors of Marxists and the Nazis really did compete with the Communists and Social Democrats for the spot of lead left wing party.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Its **** tier trolling to claim Hitler was a commie.
    Socialism encompasses the entire left wing of socio-sconomical doctrines, that means everything from Social Democrats to state capitalists to communism to certain flavors of fascism. Every communist is a socialist. Not every socialist is a communist.

    The idea that socialist = communist and Hitler = right wing is a dumb american meme that just refuses to die. It only exists because of how stupidly monochrome american politics are. While the rest of the world operates on two axes (left -> right and libertarian -> authoritarian) America only uses the second one because historically all their parties except for the communists and american nazis were right wing hardliners.
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  18. #18
    Kritias's Avatar Petite bourgeois
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    Default Re: Capitalism and the Second World War cont.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Remarking upon the fundamental similarities between Bolshevism and Nazism, both in terms of the conditions that fostered their rise at the same time in history, and in their methods and motivations, has nothing to do with Holocaust denial. Like the effort to ascribe the function and core aims of the Nazi state to “capitalism” in particular, as a rhetorical contrast to Soviet Russia, the allegation is a predictable deflection proffered by those who, for whatever reason, have nostalgic and/or ideological sympathies for Soviet Russia and/or auth left regimes in general.

    For example, Jewish political theorist Hannah Arendt studied key angles of those similarities, including anti-Semitism, imperialism and totalitarianism. Entire bodies of academic work stem from her theories on this. The following are excerpts from The Origins of Totalitarianism:

    Internationalism, Pan-Racialism, and the Conspiracy of the “Other”

    It has already been noticed that the Nazis were not simple nationalists. Their nationaUst propaganda was directed toward their fellow-travelers and not their convinced members; the latter, on the contrary, were never al- lowed to lose sight of a consistently supranational approach to politics. Nazi "nationalism" had more than one aspect in common with the recent nationalistic propaganda in the Soviet Union, which is also used only to feed the prejudices of the masses. The Nazis had a genuine and never revoked contempt for the narrowness of nationalism, the provinciaHsm of the nation-state, and they repeated time and again that their "movement," international in scope like the Bolshevik movement, was more important to them than any state, which would necessarily be bound to a specific terri- tory. And not only the Nazis, but fifty years of antiscmitic history, stand as evidence against the identification of antisemitism with nationalism. The first antisemitic parties in the last decades of the nineteenth century were also among the first that banded together internationally. From the very beginning, they called international congresses and were concerned with a co-ordination of international, or at least inter-European, activities.

    Nazism and Bolshevism owe more to Pan-Germanism and Pan-Slavism (respectively) than to any other ideology or political movement. This is most evident in foreign policies, where the strategies of Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia have followed so closely the well-known programs of conquest outlined by the pan-movements before and during the first World War that totalitarian aims have frequently been mistaken for the pursuance of some permanent German or Russian interests. While neither Hitler nor Sialin has ever acknowledged his debt to imperialism in the development of his methods of rule, neither has hesitated to admit his indebtedness to the pan-movements' ideology or to imitate their slogans.

    Pan-Germanism showed itself somewhat superior in organizational theory, insofar as it shrewdly deprived the individual German of all these wondrous qualities if he did not adhere to the movement (thereby foreshadowing the spiteful contempt which Nazism later expressed for the non-Party members of the German people), whereas Pan-Slavism, absorbed deeply in its limitless speculations about the Slav soul, assumed that every Slav consciously or unconsciously possessed such a soul no matter whether he was properly organized or not. It needed Stalin's ruthlessness to introduce into Bolshevism the same con- tempt for the Russian people that the Nazis showed toward the Germans.

    The speed with which the German and Austrian Pan-Germans rallied to Nazism has a parallel in the much slower and more complicated course through which Pan-Slavs finally found out that the liquidation of Lenin's Russian Revolution had been thorough enough to make it possible for them to support Stalin wholeheartedly. That Bolshevism and Nazism at the height of their power outgrew mere tribal nationalism and had little use for those who were still actually convinced of it in principle, rather than as mere propaganda material, was neither the Pan-Germans' nor the Pan-Slavs' fault and hardly checked their enthusiasm.

    The introduction of the notion of "objective enemy" is much more de- cisive for the functioning of totalitarian regimes than the ideological defini- tion of the respective categories. If it were only a matter of hating Jews or bourgeois, the totalitarian regimes could, after the commission of one gi- gantic crime, return, as it were, to the rules of normal life and government. As we know, the opposite is the case. The category of objective enemies outlives the first ideologically determined foes of the movement; new ob- jective enemies are discovered according to changing circumstances: the Nazis, foreseeing the completion of Jewish extermination, had already taken the necessary preliminary steps for the liquidation of the Polish people, while Hitler even planned the decimation of certain categories of Germans;"^ the Bolsheviks, having started with descendants of the former ruling classes, directed their full terror against the kulaks (in the early thirties), who in turn were followed by Russians of Polish origin (between 1936 and 1938), the Tartars and the Volga Germans during the war, former prisoners of war and units of the occupational forces of the Red Army after the war, and Rus- sian Jewry after the establishment of a Jewish state. The choice of such cate- gories is never entirely arbitrary; since they are publicized and used for propaganda purposes of the movement abroad, they must appear plausible as possible enemies; the choice of a particular category may even be due to certain propaganda needs of the movement at large—as for instance the sudden entirely unprecedented emergence of governmental antisemitism in the Soviet Union, which may be calculated to win sympathies for the Soviet Union in the European satellite countries.

    For the immediate predecessor of totalitarian imperialism is not the British, Dutch or French version of overseas colonial rule, but the German, Austrian and Russian version of a continental imperialism which never actually suc- ceeded, and therefore is neglected by students of imperialism, but which in the form of the so-called pan-movements—pan-Germanism and pan-Slavism—was a very potent political force in Central and Eastern Europe. Not only does totalitarianism, nazism no less than bolshevism, owe a heavy debt to pan-Germanism and pan-Slavism in matters of ideology and organization; their expansion program, though global in scope and thereby distinguished from those of the pan-movements, follows the aims of continental imperi- alism. The main point here is that the strategy of expansion follows geo- graphic continuity and extends from a power center to a widening periphery which then is supposed to gravitate "naturally" toward its center. This co- hesive extension could of course never have tolerated a dichotomy between home government and colonial rule; and since continental imperialism in- tended to found its "empire" in Europe itself, it did not depend upon a color line to distinguish between "higher and lower breeds"; instead it pro- posed to treat European peoples as colonials under the rule of a master race of Germanic or Slavic origin.


    The rise of the Nazi and Bolshevik movements owe great success to mass organization of people, specifically built on the in-group/out-group dynamic. Both leveraged latent pan-racial sentiments and alienation from capital as the primary vehicles for this. The Jewish banker and the bourgeois capitalist are synonymous tropes in all but name, whose silent hand working behind the scenes to nefariously manipulate human civilization is explained by the material interests inherent to his mere existence as a group or class, and from whose designs the righteous movement born of an awakened consciousness must liberate the oppressed class. By speaking to these motifs, the Nazis and Bolsheviks were able to translate their contempt for the traditional European nation state and class hierarchy into emotional appeals that resonated with their respective audiences as the groundwork for an internationalist movement.

    The One Party State and the Internationalist Movement

    The fact that the seizure of power by the Nazis was usually identified with such a one-party dictatorship merely showed how much political thinking was still rooted in the old established patterns, and how little the people were prepared for what really was to come. The only typically modern aspect of the Fascist party dictatorship is that here, too, the party insisted that it was a movement; that it was nothing of the kind, but merely usurped the slogan "movement" in order to attract the masses, became evident as soon as it seized the state machine without drastically changing the power structure of the country, being content to fill ail gov- ernment positions with party members. It was precisely through the iden- tification of the party with the state, which both the Nazis and the Bolsheviks have always carefully avoided, that the party ceased to be a "movement" and became tied to the basically stable structure of the state.

    The difference between Fascism and the totalitarian movements is best illustrated by their attitude toward the army, thatis, toward the na- tional institution par excellence. In contrast to the Nazis and the Bolsheviks, who destroyed the spirit of the army by subordinating it to the political commissars or totalitarian elite formations, the Fascists could use such intensely nationalist instruments as the army, with which they identified themselves as they had identified themselves with the state. They wanted a Fascist state and a Fascist army, but still an army and a state; only in Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia army and state became subordinated functions of the movement.

    Neither National Socialism nor Bolshevism has ever proclaimed a new form of government or asserted that its goals were reached with the seizure of power and the control of the state machinery. Their idea of domination was something that no state and no mere apparatus of violence can ever achieve, but only a movement that is constantly kept in motion: namely, the permanent domination of each single individual in each and every
    sphere of life. The seizure of power through the means of violence is never an end in itself but only the means to an end, and the seizure of power in any given country is only a welcome transitory stage but never the end of the movement. The practical goal of the movement is to organize as mariy pciiplc as possible within its framework and to set and keep them in motion; a political goal that would constitute the end of the movement simply does not exist.

    When a movement, international in organization, all-comprehensive in its ideological scope, and global in its political aspiration, seizes power in one country, it obviously puts itself in a paradoxical situation. The socialist movement was spared this crisis, first, because the national question—and that meant the strategical problem involved in the revolution—had been curiously neglected by Marx and Engels, and, secondly, because it faced governmental problems only after the first World War had divested the Sec- ond International of its authority over the national members, which every- where had accepted the primacy of national sentiments over international solidarity as an unalterable fact. In other words, when the time came for the socialist movements to seize power in their respective countries, they had already been transformed into national parties.

    This transformation never occurred in the totalitarian, the Bolshevik and the Nazi movements. At the time it seized power the danger to the move- ment lay in the fact that, on one hand, it might become "ossified" by taking over the state machine and frozen into a form of absolute government,^ and that, on the other hand, its freedom of movement might be limited by the borders of the territory in which it came to power. To a totalitarian movement, both dangers are equally deadly: a development toward abso- lutism would put an end to the movement's interior drive, and a develop- ment toward nationalism would frustrate its exterior expansion, without which the movement cannot survive. The form of government the two movements developed, or, rather, which almost automatically developed from their double claim to total domination and global rule, is best char- acterized by Trotsky's slogan of "permanent revolution" although Trotsky's theory was no more than a socialist forecast of a series of revolutions, from the antifeudal bourgeois to the antibourgeois proletarian, which would spread from one country to the other.^ Only the term itself suggests "per-mancncy." with all its semi-anarchistic implications, and is, strictly speak- ing, a misnomer; yet even Lenin was more impressed by the term than by its theoretical content. In the Soviet Union, at any rate, revolutions, in the form of general purges, became a permanent institution of the Stalin regime after 1934.'' Here, as in other instances, Stalin concentrated his attacks on Trotsky's half-forgotten slogan precisely because he had decided to use this technique.' In Nazi Germany, a similar tendency toward per- manent revolution was clearly discernible though the Nazis not have time to realize it to the same extent. Characteristically enough, their "per- manent revolution" also started with the liquidation of the party faction which had dared to proclaim openly the "next stage of the revolution"


    Both Nazism and Bolshevism subjugated the nation state and its functions to the demands of the ideological movement and its international designs. That they in fact usurped and replaced their respective predecessor regimes rather than reoriented the concept of the state itself was as pragmatic as it was useful to keep the eternal struggle against “the other” alive and growing. Neither would presume to be satisfied by the mere achievement of power at any regional or national level, regardless of the facade presented to outsiders. The common goal was international, global domination as a necessary prerequisite to truly realize their ultimate aim of liberation from the existing world order. This, as well as the material demands of empowering their respective states, formed the justification for the imperialist territorial expansionism of the Nazi and Soviet regimes, and the relentless elimination of political enemies wherever expansion was achieved - even at the expense of more practical priorities.

    Dogma, the In Group, and the Struggle Against the Other

    The attraction of evil and crime for the mob mentality is nothing new. It has always been true that the mob will greet "deeds of violence with the admiring remark: it may be mean but it is very clever."" The disturbing factor in the success of totalitarianism is rather the true selflessness of its adherents: it may be understandable that a Nazi or Bolshevik will not be shaken in his conviction by crimes against people who do not belong to the movement or are even hostile to it; but the amazing fact is that neither is he likely to waver when the monster begins to devour its own children and not even if he becomes a victim of persecution himself, if he is framed and condemned, if he is purged from the party and sent to a forced-labor or a concentration camp. On the contrary, to the wonder of the whole civilized world, he may even be willing to help in his own prosecution and frame his own death sentence if only his status as a member of the move- ment is not touched.

    More specific in totalitarian propaganda, however, than direct threats and crimes against individuals is the use of indirect, veiled, and menacing hints against all who will not heed its teachings and, later, mass murder perpe- trated on "guilty" and "innocent" alike. People are threatened by Commu- nist propaganda with missing the train of history, with remaining hopelessly behind their time, with spending their lives uselessly, just as they were threat- ened by the Nazis with living against the eternal laws of nature and life, with an irreparable and mysterious deterioration of their blood. The strong emphasis of totalitarian propaganda on the "scientific" nature of its asser- tions has been compared to certain advertising techniques which also ad- dress themselves to masses. And it is true that the advertising columns of every newspaper show this "scientificality," by which a manufacturer proves with facts and figures and the help of a "research" department that his is the "best soap in the world."" It is also true that there is a certain element of violence in the imaginative exaggerations of publicity men, that behind the assertion that girls who do not use this particular brand of soap may go through life with pimples and without a husband, lies the wild dream of monopoly, the dream that one day the manufacturer of the "only soap that prevents pimples" may have the power to deprive of husbands all girls who do not use his soap. Science in the instances of both business publicity and totalitarian propaganda is obviously only a surrogate for power. The obses- sion of totalitarian movements with "scientific" proofs ceases once they are in power. The Nazis dismissed even those scholars who were willing to serve them, and the Bolsheviks use the reputation of their scientists for entirely unscientific purposes and force them into the role of charlatans.

    While it has been the specialty of Nazi propaganda to profit from the longmg of the masses for consistency, Bolshevik methods have demon- strated, as though in a laboratory, its impact on the isolated mass man. The Soviet secret police, so eager to convince its victims of their guiU for crimes they never committed, and in many instances were in no position to com- mit, completely isolates and eliminates all real factors, so that the very logic, the very consistency of "the story" contained in the prepared confession becomes overwhelming. In a situation where the dividing line between fiction and reality is blurred by the monstrosity and the inner consistency of the accusation, not only the strength of character to resist constant threats but great confidence in the existence of fellow human beings—rela- tives or friends or neighbors—who will never believe "the story" are required to resist the temptation to yield to the mere abstract possibility of guilt.
    To be sure, this extreme of an artificially fabricated insanity can be achieved only in a totalitarian world. Then, however, it is part of the propa- ganda apparatus of the totalitarian regimes to which confessions are not indispensable for punishment. "Confessions" are as much a specialty of Bolshevik propaganda as the curious pedantry of legalizing crimes by retro- spective and retroactive legislation was a specialty of Nazi propaganda. The aim in both cases is consistency.

    It is interesting that even in their beginnings the Nazis were prudent enough never to use slogans which, like democracy, republic, dictatorship, or monarchy, indicated a specific form of government. It is as though, in this one matter, they had always known that they would be entirely original. Every discussion about the actual form of their future government could be dismissed as empty talk about mere formalities—the state, according to Hitler, being only a "means" for the conservation of the race, as the state, according to Bolshevik propaganda, is only an instrument in the struggle of classes

    The stubbornness with which totalitarian dictators have clung to their original lies in the face of absurdity is more than superstitious gratitude to what turned the trick, and, at least in the case of Stalin, cannot be explained by the psychology of the liar whose very success may make him his own last victim. Once these propaganda slogans are integrated into a "living organiza- tion," they cannot be safely eliminated without wrecking the whole structure. The assumption of a Jewish world conspiracy was transformed by totali- tarian propaganda from an objective, arguable matter into the chief element of the Nazi reality; the point was that the Nazis acted as though the world were dominated by the Jews and needed a counterconspiracy to defend itself. Racism for them was no longer a debatable theory of dubious scientific value, but was being realized every day in the functioning hierarchy of a political organization in whose framework it would have been very "unreal- istic" to question it. Similarly, Bolshevism no longer needs to win an argu- ment about class struggle, internationalism, and unconditional dependence of the welfare of the proletariat on the welfare of the Soviet Union; the functioning organization of the Comintern is more convincing than any argument or mere ideology can ever be.

    The front organizations surround the movements' membership with a protective wall which separates them from the outside, normal world; at the same time, they form a bridge back into normalcy, without which the members in the prepower stage would feel too sharply the differences be- tween their beliefs and those of normal people, between the lying fictitious- ness of their own and the reality of the normal world. The ingeniousness of this device during the movements' struggle for power is that the front or- ganizations not only isolate the members but offer them a semblance of out- side normalcy which wards of! the impact of true reality more etifectively than mere indoctrination. It is the difference between his own and the fel- low-traveler's attitudes which confirms a Nazi or Bolshevik in his belief in the fictitious explanation of the world, for the fellow-traveler has the same convictions, after all, albeit in a more "normal," i.e., less fanatic, more confused form; so that to the party member it appears that anyone whom the movement has not expressly singled out as an enemy (a Jew, a capi- talist, etc.) is on his side, that the world is full of secret allies who merely cannot, as yet, summon up the necessary strength of mind and character to draw the logical conclusions from their own convictions."^

    With secret so- cieties, the totalitarian movements also share the dichotomous division of the world between "sworn blood brothers" and an indistinct inarticulate mass of sworn enemies."^ This distinction, based on absolute hostility to the sur- rounding world, is very different from the ordinary parties' tendency to divide people into those who belong and those who don't. Parties and open societies in general will consider only those who expressly oppose them to be their enemies, while it has always been the principle of secret societies that "whosoever is not expressly included is excluded." ^^ This esoteric prin- ciple seems to be entirely inappropriate for mass organizations; yet the Nazis gave their members at least the psychological equivalent for the ini- tiation ritual of secret societies when, instead of simply excluding Jews, from membership, they demanded proof of non-Jewish descent from their mem- bers and set up a complicated machine to shed light on the dark ancestry of some 80 million Germans. It was of course a comedy, and even an ex- pensive one, when 80 million Germans set out to look for Jewish grand- fathers; yet everybody came out of the examination with the feeling that he belonged to a group of included which stood against an imaginary multi- tude of ineligibles. The same principle is confirmed in the Bolshevik move- ment through repeated party purges which inspire in everybody who is not excluded a reaffirmation of his inclusion.

    These similarities are not, of course, accidental; they cannot simply be explained by the fact that both Hitler and Stalin had been members of modern secret societies before they became totalitarian leaders — Hitler in the secret service of the Reichswehr and Stalin in the conspiracy section of the Bolshevik party. They are to some extent the natural outcome of the conspiracy fiction of totalitarianism whose organizations supposedly have been founded to counteract secret societies—the secret society of the Jews or the conspiratory society of the Trotskyites. What is remarkable in the to- talitarian organizations is rather that they could adopt so many organiza- tional devices of secret societies without ever trying to keep their own goal a secret. That the Nazis wanted to conquer the world, deport "racially alien" peoples and exterminate those of "inferior biological heritage," that the Bolsheviks work for the world revolution, was never a secret; these aims, on the contrary, were always part of their propaganda. In other words, the totalitarian movements imitate all the paraphernalia of the secret so- cieties but empty them of the only thing that could excuse, or was sup-modern secret societies before they became totalitarian leaders
    posed to excuse, their methods—the necessity to safeguard a secret.

    In this, as in so many other respects, Nazism and Bolshevism arrived at the same organizational result from very different historical beginnings. The Nazis started with the fiction of a conspiracy and modeled themselves, more or less consciously, after the example of the secret society of the Elders of Zion. whereas the Bolsheviks came from a revolutionary party, whose aim was one-party dictatorship, passed through a stage in which the party was "entirely apart and above everything" to the moment when the Politburo of the party was "entirely apart from and above everything";'**' finally Stalin imposed upon this party structure the rigid totalitarian rules of its conspiratory sector and only then discovered the need for a central fiction to maintain the iron discipline of a secret society under the conditions of a mass organization. The Nazi development may be more logical, more con- sistent in itself, but the history of the Bolshevik party offers a better illus- tration of the essentially fictitious character of totalitarianism, precisely because the fictitious global conspiracies against and according to which the Bolshevik conspiracy is supposedly organized have not been ideologically fixed. They have changed—from the Trotskyites to the 300 families, then to various "imperialisms" and recently to "rootless cosmopolitanism"—and were adjusted to passing needs; yet at no moment and under none of the most various circumstances has it been possible for Bolshevism to do with- out some such fiction.

    Totalitarian movements have proved time and again that they can com- mand the same total loyalty in life and death which had been the prerogative of secret and conspiratory societies.^''^ The complete absence of resistance in a thoroughly trained and armed troop like the SA in the face of the mur- der of a beloved leader (Rohm) and hundreds of close comrades was a curious spectacle. At that moment probably Rohm, and not Hitler, had the power of the Reichswehr behind him. But these incidents in the Nazi movement have by now been overshadowed by the ever-repeated spectacle of self-confessed "criminals" in the Bolshevik parties. Trials based on absurd confessions have become part of an internally all-important and externally incomprehensible ritual. But, no matter how the victims are being prepared today, this ritual owes its existence to the probably unfabricated confessions of the old Bolshevik guard in 1936. Long feefore the time of the Moscow Trials men condemned to death would receive their sentences with great calm, an attitude "particularly prevalent among members of the Cheka." ^^^ So long as the movement exists, its peculiar form of organization makes sure that at least the elite formations can no longer conceive of a life outside the closely knit band of men who, even if they are condemned, still feel superior to the rest of the uninitiated world. And since this organization's exclusive aim has always been to deceive and fight and uUimately conquer the outside world, its members are satisfied to pay with their lives if only this helps again to fool the world.

    The only group supposed to believe loyally and textually in the Leader's words are the sympathizers whose confidence surrounds the movement with an atmosphere of honesty and simple-mindedness, and helps the Leader to fulfill half his task, that is, to inspire confidence in the movement. The party members never believe public statements and are not supposed to, but are complimented by totalitarian propaganda on that superior intelligence which supposedly distinguishes them from the nontotalitarian outside world, which, in turn, they know only from the abnormal gullibility of sympathizers. Only Nazi sympathizers believed Hitler when he swore his famous legality oath before the supreme court of the Weimar Republic; members of the movement knew very well that he lied, and trusted him more than ever be- cause he apparently was able to fool public opinion and the authorities. When in later years Hitler repeated the performance for the whole world, when he swore to his good intentions and at the same time most openly pre- pared his crimes, the admiration of the Nazi membership naturally was boundless. Similarly, only Bolshevik fellow-travelers believed in the dissolu- tion of the Comintern, and only the nonorganized masses of the Russian people and the fellow-travelers abroad were meant to take at face value Stalin's prodemocratic statements during the war. Bolshevik party members were explicitly warned not to be fooled by tactical maneuvers and were asked to admire their Leader's shrewdness in betraying his allies.


    In Nazism and Bolshevism, the absolute power of the Party was as crucial to its preservation as it was to the identity of its membership. The religious zeal of absolute ideological and moral clarity formed a powerful organizational and enforcement tool. Membership was an honor to be aspired to; expulsion a fate on par with excommunication from God. Even the cruelest of punishments under the flimsiest of pretenses was tolerated by the membership at large, as both a protection from the ever present evils of subversion, and a necessary affirmation of the righteousness of the Party and those who remained true to its cause.

    Without such draconian vigilance, not only will the moral purity of the elect be cheapened, but the wiles of Devil, the Jew, the Capitalist, will surely exploit such weakness to undermine and destroy the faithful and their holy mission. Those closest to the Leader (like the Leader himself) are relatively unburdened by such scruples, as they are chosen for their loyalty and proximity to power, rather than their ideological conviction per se. While ideological enforcement keeps the membership in line and fuels the fire with which it is propagated, it is merely a tool to those who wield the power.

    Ideology and the Incorporeality of Power

    The only rule of which everybody in a totalitarian state may be sure is that the more visible government agencies are, the less power they carry, and the less is known of the existence of an institution, the more powerful it will ultimately turn out to be. According to this rule, the Soviets, recog- nized by a written constitution as the highest authority of the state, have less power than the Bolshevik party; the Bolshevik party, which recruits its members openly and is recognized as the ruling class, has less power than the secret police. Real power begins where secrecy begins. In this respect the Nazi and the Bolshevik states were very much alike; their difference lay chiefly in the monopolization and centralization of secret police services in Himmler on one hand, and the maze of apparently unrelated and uncon- nected police activities in Russia on the other.

    If one considers these last years of Nazi rule and their version of a "five- year plan," which they had no time to carry out but which aimed at the extermination of the Polish and Ukrainian people, of 170 million Russians (as mentioned in one plan), the intelligentsia of Western Europe such as the Dutch and the people of Alsace and Lorraine, as well as of all those Germans who would be disqualified under the prospective Reich health bill or the planned "community alien law," the analogy to the Bolshevik five-year plan of 1929, the first year of clear-cut totalitarian dictatorship in Russia, is al- most inescapable. Vulgar eugenic slogans in one case, high-sounding eco- nomic phrases in the other, were the prelude to "a piece of prodigious insanity, in which all rules of logic and principles of economics were turned upside down.""'

    The assumption that Nazi law was binding beyond the German border and the punishment of non-Germans were more than mere devices of op- pression. Totalitarian regimes are not afraid of the logical implications of world conquest even if they work the other way around and are detrimental to their own peoples' interests. Logically, it is indisputable that a plan for world conquest involves the abolition of differences between the conquering mother country and the conquered territories, as well as the difference be- tween foreign and domestic politics, upon which all existing nontotalitarian institutions and all international intercourse are based. If the totalitarian conqueror conducts himself everywhere as though he were at home, by the same token he must treat his own population as though he were a foreign conqueror.'" And it is perfectly true that the totalitarian movement seizes power in much the same sense as a foreign conqueror may occupy a coun- try which he governs not for its own sake but for the benefit of something or somebody else. The Nazis behaved like foreign conquerors in Germany when, against all national interests, they tried and half succeeded in con- verting their defeat into a final catastrophe for the whole German people; similarly in case of victory, they intended to extend their extermination politics into the ranks of "racially unfit" Germans.*^<'

    A similar attitude seems to have inspired Soviet foreign policy after the war.
    The cost of its aggressiveness to the Russian people themselves is prohibitive: it has foregone the great postwar loan from the United States which would have enabled Russia to reconstruct devastated areas and in- dustrialize the country in a rational, productive way. The extension of Comintern governments throughout the Balkans and the occupation of large Eastern territories brought no tangible benefits, but on the contrary strained Russian resources still further. But this policy certainly served the interests of the Bolshevik movement, which has spread over almost half of the inhabited world.

    Even before the movement seizes power, it possesses a secret police and spy service with branches in various countries. Later its agents receive more money and authority than the regular military intelligence service and are frequently the secret chiefs of embassies and consulates abroad.**'* Its main tasks consist in forming fifth columns, directing the branches of the move- ment, influencing the domestic policies of the respective countries, and gen- erally preparing for the time when the totalitarian ruler—after overthrow of the government or military victory—can openly feel at home. In other words, the international branches of the secret police are the transmission belts which constantly transform the ostensibly foreign policy of the to- talitarian state into the potentially domestic business of the totalitarian movement.

    These functions, however, which the secret police fulfill in order to pre- pare the totalitarian Utopia of world rule, are secondary to those required for the present realization of the totalitarian fiction in one country. The dom- inant role of the secret police in the domestic politics of totalitarian coun- tries has naturally contributed much to the common misconception of totali- tarianism. All despotisms rely heavily on secret services and feel more threatened by their own than by any foreign people. However, this analogy between totalitarianism and despotism holds only for the first stages of to- talitarian rule, when there is still a political opposition. In this as in other respects totalitarianism takes advantage of, and gives conscious support to, nontotalitarian misconceptions, no matter how uncomplimentary they may be. Himmler, in his famous speech to the Reichswehr staff in 1937, assumed the role of an ordinary tyrant when he explained the constant expansion of the police forces by assuming the existence of a "fourth theater in case of war, internal Germany."**" Similarly, Stalin at almost the same moment half succeeded in convincing the old Bolshevik guard, whose "confessions" he needed, of a war threat against the Soviet Union and, consequently, an emergency in which the country must remain united even behind a despot. The most striking aspect of these statements was that both were made after all political opposition had been extinguished, that the secret services were expanded when actually no opponents were left to be spied upon. When war came, Himmler neither needed nor used his SS troops in Germany it- self, except for the running of concentration camps and policing of foreign slave labor; the bulk of the armed SS served at the Eastern front where they were used for "special assignments"—usually mass murder—and the en- forcement of policy which frequently ran counter to the military as well as the Nazi civilian hierarchy. Like the secret police of the Soviet Union, the SS formations usually arrived after the military forces had pacified the con- quered territory and had dealt with outright political opposition.

    In the interpretation of totalitarianism, all laws have become laws of movement. When the Nazis talked about the law of nature or when the Bolsheviks talk about the law of history, neither nature nor history is any longer the stabilizing source of authority for the actions of mortal men; they are movements in themselves. Underlying the Nazis' belief in race laws as the expression of the law of nature in man, is Darwin's idea of man as the product of a natural development which does not necessarily stop with the present species of human beings, just as under the Bolsheviks' belief in class-struggle as the expression of the law of history lies Marx's notion of society as the product of a gigantic historical movement which races according to its own law of motion to the end of historical times when it will abolish itself.


    What makes the claim that the Nazi regime was particularly “capitalist” so nonsensical aren’t just the obvious contradictions exposing the sophistry of such an idea. It’s that both Nazism and Bolshevism were antithetical to the basic characteristics of capitalism, ideologically and functionally. Everyone and everything was subservient to the state, and the state was subservient to the Party. Their fundamental motivations and aims represented a rejection of capitalism - of the rule of law, of competitive markets, the sanctity of property rights, of voluntary association etc. The idea that privatization in 1930s Nazi Germany made it “capitalist” is precisely the kind of intellectual dishonesty and apologism proponents of this nonsense ascribe to their detractors.

    Privatization was undertaken as a way to further the power of the Nazi Party by gaining support from and rewarding the beneficiaries of the program. Majority shares in formerly state owned enterprises were “sold” to loyal party members and supporters for the express purpose of ensuring the Party controlled the economic and social levers of the German state. As Arendt notes above:



    By carving up economic sectors amongst its membership/supporters through political cartels, the Nazis and Soviets ensured their power was omnipresent. Centralized control was enforced through political terror as much in Nazi Germany as in Soviet Russia.



    The Nazis and Soviets did not seek to create wealth or facilitate class interests. They sought to use these as a means to further the goal of world domination through subversion and conquest. They behaved as foreign occupiers as much within their own states as those they sought to assimilate, systematically breaking down and eliminating anyone or anything that was said to threaten the success of their glorious movements - Kulaks, Poles, political dissidents, former elites, Jews, Tartars, Volga GermansÂ….. millions slaughtered under the pretext of high-handed appeals to eugenics, economic efficiency, and righteous liberation.
    1. Nazism and Fascism were nationalist reactions to the spread of communism and socialism in Europe in 1900-1930s. The similarities you observe correctly have more to do with the fascists co-opting leftist talking points, organization strategies and general know-how (socialism had been going on for 150 years to that point, contrary to fascism which began as a movement with Musolini after WW1 - just 2o years before WW2) and turning them around to steal support from the left than anything else. In this the fascists proved way more successful than the left.

    2. Pointing out similarities and claiming the two movements are identical ("the black/red fascism obscenity") is not the same thing. The former is indeed observable, the latter is simply denialism of easily retrievable historical facts. Nazism seeked out to exterminate races it deemed had no right to exist. Their whole mondus operandi revolved around this extermination. Socialists seeked to abolish economic classes and change their economic system.

    3. The fundamental difference between the Jew Banker and the bourgeois capitalist: in Marxism, the bourgeois oppresses the working class because they seek out profit, not because they are somehow flawed themselves genetically. Marx wrote the capitalist might even want to do good, but because of the profit-seeking nature of capitalism he either will have to out-compete the most horrible of bosses or go out of business himself. In Nazism the Jew Banker is evil because he is a Jew. This can be easily proven by the fact the Nazis had no problem whatsoever with protestant/catholic German Bankers. The racist component makes all the difference. For soviets, the capitalist/the counter-revolutionary/the criminal is able of rehabilitation. In Nazism there is no such nuance. If someone is of the wrong race, it's death or slavery until death.

    4. The world domination accusation is easily falling apart when confronted with western imperialism; once again, the US has staged 56 military interventions in South America alone. It has done so for financial gains for its companies, and through means of puppet dictatorships, coups, attempted coups and death squads. What was that Elon Musk once wrote in twitter? Oh, yes. "We will coup whoever we like. Deal with it." But please tell me about the evils of imperialism.

    5. Maybe you should read the study I link regarding the economics of the Third Reich. To say that the Nazis did not support (and were supported by) Big Business is simply ignorant. Capitalists in Germany benefited from the privatization, and slave labour to increase their profits throughout the war. Companies were taken apart because of this after the war, like IG Farben. Hell, even Schindler's List is about a capitalist who begins the movie by trying to take up slave labour and war contracts to make the big bucks! How is this even a point of discussion? It's common knowledge!

    6. Party organization in fascism and nazism is of course similar to socialism; the reason being, both fascist branch ideologies were extemely young compared to socialism, which draws its roots from 1700s. The fact that the Nazis organized themselves according to the socialist playbook doesn't mean they were the same. It just means they had no real theoretical tools themselves, and stole everything they could use.

    7. Equating the extermination of Jews to the kulaks is Holocaust denialism, you do understand that right? The kulaks were a social class, not an ethnic one. They were accused of harvesting and hiding grain amidst a famine for profit, and were robbed blind and sent to prisons. The Jews on the other hand could have done nothing to prevent their fate - because their "crime" wasn't something they did, but who they were.

    8. To say nazism was not a nationalist based ideology when the Nazis themselves imagined their future in terms of large swathes of Europe under Germania - the Thousand Year Reich - is complete nonsense. There's no evidence to support Nazis were internationalists, only that they were willing to keep conquering lands to exploit and exterminate. The whole ideology was to unite the Aryan Race under the German nation.
    Last edited by Kritias; August 21, 2021 at 07:40 PM.
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  19. #19
    Kritias's Avatar Petite bourgeois
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    Default Re: Capitalism and the Second World War cont.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    The idea that socialist = communist and Hitler = right wing is a dumb american meme that just refuses to die. It only exists because of how stupidly monochrome american politics are. While the rest of the world operates on two axes (left -> right and libertarian -> authoritarian) America only uses the second one because historically all their parties except for the communists and american nazis were right wing hardliners.
    The bold part is wrong. Firstly there are other right-wing authoritarian governments like the monarchy. Fascism doesn't fall on the left, but on the far right of the spectrum. It is right wing because of its embrace of common right wing tropes like tradition, social hierarchies, traditional man/woman roles, nationalism, and rejection of egalitarianism. For fascism, not all people are equal and not all classes are equal. There are strict social hierarchies that cooperate seemlessly for the good of the nation.

    I agree with the rest of the above quotation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Except Lenin really did kill SR's and Mensheviks. Stalin really did kill Leninists and Trotskites and all other flavors of Marxists and the Nazis really did compete with the Communists and Social Democrats for the spot of lead left wing party.
    And Hitler killed off the elements of the Nazi party he didn't agree with in the Night of Long Knives. He also sent all socialists, Marxists, Social Democrats, Democrats, anarchists and other political groups to concentration camps - like Dachau. As for competing for the left wing party spot, check above.
    Last edited by Kritias; August 21, 2021 at 07:36 PM.
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  20. #20
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Capitalism and the Second World War cont.

    You can easily see, that the nazis were a right wing party, as they could easily ally themself against the Sovietunion with the conservative authoritan or monarchistic authoritan governments of Hungary , Romania and Bulgaria.
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