Did Greek alphabet have any influence on Paleohispanic scripts? Or were Iberian scripts rooted solely in Phoenician influence?

[Roma_Victrix]

This is still a quagmire for modern scholars, made even more difficult by the paucity of surviving texts from pre-Roman Iron Age Spain and before the dominance of Latin. With the exception of the Greco-Iberian alphabet that was basically just an Ionic Greek alphabet tweaked for native Iberians, the Paleohispanic scripts weren't even purely alphabets or even purely syllabaries but rather semi-syllabaries that combined both. This makes it difficult to judge whether or not the Phoenician alphabet was the sole source of inspiration for these alphabets or if the Greek alphabet played a smaller or even equally influential role. What do you guys, think? The fact that the Greek alphabet is based on the Phoenician one certainly doesn't make it any easier to discern which one served as the model for the Paleohispanic scripts. These were not used just for the native Iberian language either, but also for the Continental Celtic language of the Celtiberians, who had their own script based on the Northeastern Iberian one.

I have my own hypothesis, though!
Like the primary writing systems of the ancient Shang-dynasty Chinese, Mesopotamian Sumerians and Early Dynastic Egyptians that spawned hundreds of others, the native Iberians invented writing all on their own!
Unfortunately nobody subscribes to my hypothesis, at least not until I put a gun to their heads and make them see the light. It's time for you to accept my hypothesis, or you can just go ahead and die. Your choice pal.

[Roma_Victrix]

I suppose you guys consider this to be a boring topic of discussion then, but there's now a decent conversation about this in the Vestigia Vetustatis forum for anyone interested:

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...cian-influence

[realm56]

I think it is for the best to leave these types of discussions in the Vestigia Vetustatis forum, it is mostly gamers that search through this forum for mod updates and gameplay guides. The truly interested will eventually find a way to these sorts of topics one way or another.....

[Roma_Victrix]

I think it is for the best to leave these types of discussions in the Vestigia Vetustatis forum, it is mostly gamers that search through this forum for mod updates and gameplay guides. The truly interested will eventually find a way to these sorts of topics one way or another.....

Fair enough, although we've had some great discussions here in the EBII forum before.

In either case I'd like to include here a post of mine from the VV thread that I think is a worthy point of addition in regards to the greater use of Greek and Carthaginian coinage in the Iberian peninsula, beginning in the 5th century BC and rapidly expanding in the 3rd century BC with the Second Punic War. At that point many native Iberian towns were minting their own civic coins with Iberian language legends in the Iberian scripts, and soon after that the Celtiberians were doing the same:

The point about minted coin money is a worthy discussion, though, one which I neglected in my OP. Colonial Greeks at Emporion and Rhode minted their own coins separate from Massalia (Marseille, France) at least by the mid-5th century BC and the Phoenicians/Carthaginians at Gadir were minting by the 4th century BC. That was the same century that the native Iberian town Arse (Sagunto, later Roman Saguntum) began minting its own coinage. Before the Second Punic War you see rare instances of Iberian towns minting their own civic coins while using Greek and Phoenician ones for currency along with barter items. Greek coins from Emporion minted in the 5th century BC were found in a hoard at the Iberian walled town of Puig de la Nau along with many other items of silver and gold.

However, there was an explosion of coin usage during the Second Punic War, with both pro-Roman and pro-Carthaginian coin minting by Iberian cities. Not only do we find Iberian language legends in Iberian scripts throughout early Hispania Citerior, but even Celtiberian ones in the Celtiberian script following the war. This continued throughout the period of gradual Roman expansion in the Iberian peninsula throughout the Republic and reign of Augustus, but ceased after that point due to the establishment of permanent Imperial mints.

If you recall, the earliest examples of Paleohispanic scripts date to the 5th century BC, but from what I know the Iberian language legends on coins did not appear until the 3rd century BC (but there might be a very early Sagunto example I'm forgetting). That means native Iberians were using their own scripts as far back as the Classical period but were still using Greek and Carthaginian currency in the Greek and Punic languages, respectively. It's possible that the idea of using an alphabet came about with the earliest exchange of goods using such coinages, but it appears they didn't seem confident enough to mint their own varieties in their own Iberian language until the Hellenistic era.

[Elmetiacos]

It's too much of a coincidence that the Southwest "Tartessian" script has signs identical to Phoenician for N, R, S and Š and that the syllabic sign for gi/ki looks just like a Phoenician Q. The relationship is perhaps more like that between Roman and Navaho, in that some signs are borrowed, but not necesarily with the same values, and others invented. Greek and/or Phoenician influence on Celtiberian looks stronger.

[Roma_Victrix]

It's too much of a coincidence that the Southwest "Tartessian" script has signs identical to Phoenician for N, R, S and Š and that the syllabic sign for gi/ki looks just like a Phoenician Q. The relationship is perhaps more like that between Roman and Navaho, in that some signs are borrowed, but not necesarily with the same values, and others invented. Greek and/or Phoenician influence on Celtiberian looks stronger.

That fits with the musings I had in the VV thread. I pointed out evidence suggests that southwestern script variants were clearly under Phoenician influence while the Northeastern Iberian Script was almost undoubtedly a development influenced by nearby Greeks of Emporion. It is still very murky, though, especially since the Greek alphabet at the time could be read from left-to-right or right-to-left, or even both in the Boustrophedon style, with alternating lines of text read in opposite directions. It is at least clear that pre-Roman northeastern Iberians and Celtiberians were much more under Greek influence than Phoenician, in contrast to southern Iberia where the Carthaginians had old power bases like Gadir.

[Elmetiacos]

It's too much of a coincidence that the Southwest "Tartessian" script has signs identical to Phoenician for N, R, S and Š and that the syllabic sign for gi/ki looks just like a Phoenician Q. The relationship is perhaps more like that between Roman and Navaho, in that some signs are borrowed, but not necesarily with the same values, and others invented. Greek and/or Phoenician influence on Celtiberian looks stronger.

Navaho??? Cherokee.

[eyelurker]

I think it is for the best to leave these types of discussions in the Vestigia Vetustatis forum, it is mostly gamers that search through this forum for mod updates and gameplay guides. The truly interested will eventually find a way to these sorts of topics one way or another.....

Or by playing EB2 and read the description like me. I learn a lot about history in this time period by playing this game.

[Roma_Victrix]

Navaho??? Cherokee.

I love the self-correction after all this time. Nicely done.

Yeah, geographically it just makes sense that the Greeks would have greater influence on the Celtiberians and northern native Iberians, while Carthaginians had a greater cultural impact on southern native Iberians. This is hinted at with the Greek coinage produced by the Celtiberians and Iberians in the orbit of Emporion (in what is now Catalonia), before they had their own Iberian scripts and hence the ability to mint coins bearing writing in their own written scripts.

I think it would be cool if EBII had some sort of economic reform event for Iberia dated to the Second Punic War, given the amount of coinage in circulation due to the war effort. The Romans had their Iberian allies pumping out minted coins to pay recruited soldiers and the Carthaginians were doing the same with their allies in ancient Spain. Coins were minted beforehand, but the scale of it at the end of the 3rd century BC was unprecedented. Not sure how game mechanics would work for that beyond small economic bonuses for any factions holding Mediterranean Spanish territories, but it would be interesting to reflect that in the game.

Or by playing EB2 and read the description like me. I learn a lot about history in this time period by playing this game.

I know, right? This isn't just a mod for a video game. It's also a huge resource for information on ancient cultures, cities, wonders, armies, physical and political geography. There's a huge amount of information available and quoted from primary sources, and detailed annals provided on every wintry turn explaining what occurred in every year throughout the 3rd century BC (from 272 BC onwards).