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Thread: Female Christian activist attacked at ‘Speakers Corner’ (London)...

  1. #141

    Default Re: Female Christian activist attacked at ‘Speakers Corner’ (London)...

    Let's see what the sharia says about wudu.
    I'll use use the Umdat since I have it open:
    "e5.1 Ablution has six obligatory integrals :
    (a)to have the intention when one starts washing the face;
    (b) to wash the face;
    (c) to wash the arms up to and including the elbows;
    (d) to wipe a little of the head with wet hands;
    (e) to wash the feet up to and including the anklebones;
    (f) and to do these things in the order mentioned.
    The sunnas of ablution are all its actions besides the above. (N: The obligatory minimum is to
    perform (b), (c), (d), and (e) once, though the sunna is to perform them each three times.)"

    Wow. Looks like all three of those hadith are correct. The muslim who would pray must do the ritual wash at least once (obligatory), and have the option to do it even more. No rejection necessary.
    No doubt among the practitioner of Myslam things are different.

    Hmm.. Almost as though the scholars of Islam, the jurists and such, I know it is difficult to believe, but well, they might know a thing or two...
    Last edited by Infidel144; May 11, 2022 at 03:21 PM.

  2. #142

    Default Re: Female Christian activist attacked at ‘Speakers Corner’ (London)...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    I’m not Muslim so I’m not interested in defending hadiths. As I said, I’ve simply refuted your claims that Mohammed’s marriage and sex with a child is false, deceitful or otherwise libelous. I also pointed out your rejection of authentic hadith(s) is widely considered apostasy by most Muslims, some of whom might physically attack you for your views, just like the incident which you found so amusing. I wonder if you would be laughing while getting assaulted for your apostate views?
    Backpedaling each time your claims and arguments fail so damn quickly doesn't really make up a sound argument. Making claims about Muhammad's marriage doesn't really amount to refuting how your argumentation was false, deceitful and libelous. In fact, you didn't even try to address that. People possibly attacking me about what I say doesn't really have no relevance as well. I do laugh at such a badly formed argumentation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    Let's see what the sharia says about wudu.
    I'll use use the Umdat since I have it open:
    "e5.1 Ablution has six obligatory integrals :
    (a)to have the intention when one starts washing the face;
    (b) to wash the face;
    (c) to wash the arms up to and including the elbows;
    (d) to wipe a little of the head with wet hands;
    (e) to wash the feet up to and including the anklebones;
    (f) and to do these things in the order mentioned.
    The sunnas of ablution are all its actions besides the above. (N: The obligatory minimum is to
    perform (b), (c), (d), and (e) once, though the sunna is to perform them each three times.)"

    Wow. Looks like all three of those hadith are correct. The muslim who would pray must do the ritual wash at least once (obligatory), and have the option to do it even more. No rejection necessary.
    No doubt among the practitioner of Myslam things are different.

    Hmm.. Almost as though the scholars of Islam, the jurists and such, I know it is difficult to believe, but well, they might know a thing or two...
    Not sure how all those Hadiths are correct just because you introduce an arbitrary rule. Your quote is materially false though. It says the Sunnah, which is the practices of the prophet, is to perform each three times. Yet, we have 3 Hadith stories telling different counts for Sunnah. Go figure.
    The Armenian Issue

  3. #143

    Default Re: Female Christian activist attacked at ‘Speakers Corner’ (London)...

    Quote Originally Posted by PoVG
    Backpedaling each time your claims and arguments fail so damn quickly doesn't really make up a sound argument. Making claims about Muhammad's marriage doesn't really amount to refuting how your argumentation was false, deceitful and libelous. In fact, you didn't even try to address that. People possibly attacking me about what I say doesn't really have no relevance as well. I do laugh at such a badly formed argumentation.
    That’s an awful lot of projection for someone defending Muslim zealots whilst insisting upon apostasy. Perhaps you should have thought this through? Or maybe it’s not so funny anymore?
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  4. #144

    Default Re: Female Christian activist attacked at ‘Speakers Corner’ (London)...

    c2.0 TYPES OF HUMAN ACT
    c2.1 (N:) The obligatory (fard) is that which the Lawgiver strictly requires be done, Someone who
    performs an obligatory act out of obedience to Allah is rewarded, while a person who refrains from it
    without excuse deserves to be punished. (A: In the Shafi'i school there is no difference between
    obligatory (fard) and requisite (wajib) except in the pilgrimage, where nonperformance of a requisite does
    not invalidate the pilgrimage, but necessitates an expiation by slaughtering. For any conditions necessary
    for its validity and all of its integrals (rukn, pl. arkan) are obligatory, since it is unlawful to intentionally
    perform an invalid act of worship.)
    c2.2 The sunna (n: or recommended (mandub)) is that which the Lawgiver asks be done, but does not
    strictly require it. Someone who performs it out of obedience to Allah is rewarded, though someone
    who refrains from it is not punished.


    If only the jurists were smart, knowledgeable, they might also have been practitioners of Myslam instead if Islam...

    ===
    Also added in some Shia stuff above on the prior page (post 138).
    Last edited by Infidel144; May 11, 2022 at 04:30 PM.

  5. #145

    Default Re: Female Christian activist attacked at ‘Speakers Corner’ (London)...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    That’s an awful lot of projection for someone defending Muslim zealots whilst insisting upon apostasy. Perhaps you should have thought this through? Or maybe it’s not so funny anymore?
    At this point its not funny. You are right. It's hilarious. Your failure to stand by your claims as well as your attempts to project even your own projections is just hilarious.
    The Armenian Issue

  6. #146

    Default Re: Female Christian activist attacked at ‘Speakers Corner’ (London)...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    At this point its not funny. You are right. It's hilarious. Your failure to stand by your claims as well as your attempts to project even your own projections is just hilarious.
    One either accepts the mainstream Islamic view that Mohammed had sex with a nine year old according to authentic hadith, or one rejects authentic hadith and embraces apostasy in order to feel better about him.
    Last edited by alhoon; May 12, 2022 at 11:26 AM. Reason: Personal reference removed
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  7. #147

    Default Re: Female Christian activist attacked at ‘Speakers Corner’ (London)...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    One either accepts the mainstream Islamic view that Mohammed had sex with a nine year old according to authentic hadith, or one rejects authentic hadith and embraces apostasy in order to feel better about him.
    Rejecting authentic Hadith, which doesn't mean their account is accurate, doesn't really embrace apostasy. As I have demonstrated, by your logic, it's impossible to not be an apostate as you will go against many Hadith stories if you go for some other Hadith stories.
    Last edited by alhoon; May 12, 2022 at 11:28 AM. Reason: continuity - not in good faith argument removed
    The Armenian Issue

  8. #148

    Default Re: Female Christian activist attacked at ‘Speakers Corner’ (London)...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    One either accepts the mainstream Islamic view that Mohammed had sex with a nine year old according to authentic hadith, or one rejects authentic hadith and embraces apostasy in order to feel better about him.
    If the authentic hadith are related by large numbers of individuals through separate chains the tradition is considered mutawatir, (mass-transmitted), and it is obligatory to believe those hadith. Denial of the mutawatir is kufr (unbelief). Islamically, mutawatir hadith are fully accurate and authoritative.

    If the hadith are related through one individual or a smaller group (ahad), and the hadith are sahih (authentic) or hasan (good), belief in them is still obligatory, but denial is only fasiq (corrupt), not necessarily unbelief.
    In Islam people have been killed for rejecting hadith.
    Hadith have even been used to abrogate what is found permissible in the quran (e.g. temporary marriage (mutah) among the Sunni).

    The above is generally applicable among the Sunni, Shia may have some differences.
    No doubt in Myslam things are very different. But Myslam is of no relevance in this discussion.
    Last edited by Infidel144; May 12, 2022 at 10:25 AM.

  9. #149
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    Default Re: Female Christian activist attacked at ‘Speakers Corner’ (London)...

    Please try to remain on topic, speaking about the particular instance of activist attacked. While the religion of the attacker does play a part, further discussion on Mohammad and the different religious approaches on Islam and apostasy should be taken to different threads (perhaps in the EMM and academy) or will be considered disruptive as they continue to drive the discussion towards a different subject.
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  10. #150
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    Default Re: Female Christian activist attacked at ‘Speakers Corner’ (London)...

    Here is the full video previously posted by Infidel144 (which is cut short for unknown reasons)…



    Personally, I find the Muslims conduct here (in this clip) just pitiful, annoying and lousy, first trying to openly drown out the Christian speakers - as if that will ever help their cause or save Islam. Then the use of violence (yet again) later on, all at Londons Speakers Corner folks (after the 22.50 mark)…

    Again, note that all this takes place AFTER the attack that spawned this very thread in the first place (and then there is yet another instance after that, see post:109). And the police are seemingly doing little or nothing either, so why are they even there? Why tolerate the really poor conduct of (some) Muslims, at a place like that? Is political correctness that important in the UK?!?

    - A

  11. #151
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    Default Re: Female Christian activist attacked at ‘Speakers Corner’ (London)...

    Looks like people trying to get hit to score some sort of brownie points and some bigoted thugs indulging them? Feels like a staged scene too, as in the stupid thugs are getting played for some religious theatre.

    I guess these videos will get dredged up all the time to prove something or other. To me English people scuffling over religious matters seems pretty normal for them. When I worked there there was still massive hatred for Catholics and Muslims and racism that made an Australian blush. Maybe these British Muslims have adopted this feature of English culture?
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  12. #152
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    Default Re: Female Christian activist attacked at ‘Speakers Corner’ (London)...

    Are you actually suggesting this chain of events (in that clip) was staged?

    Does that not strike you as far-fetched, in any way? Considering that the alternative, is rather straight forward. As in, Christian activists and their aides are trying to publicly criticize and question the validity of Islam and the Korans. As a result they are treated very poorly and disrespectfully by (many) Muslims present on site. The place being Londons Speaker Corner - where you are supposed to have Freedom of Speech, and be able to do so peacefully without all the usual screaming, aggressive horde/mob of Muslim activists, right?

    If the Muslims (as a group) don’t like it - they have TWO acceptable choices… 1). Forward a speaker/activist of their own, who speak on their behalf, on the stuff that they want (basically, play by the rules, as everyone else. As in, no special treatment or exception for Islam) 2). Stay the hell out (of Speakers Corner)! To me, there is no 3rd (acceptable) option here. If they can’t handle that (or control their own) as a group - they have no business at Speaker Corner in the first place. Then they are not civilized enough (as a group) to be entrusted with any access to Speakers Corner at all, as simple as that. We are all there, on site, expected to be able to handle and respect the concept of Free Speech. It is a given for entering that area, in the first place. It applies in full to Islam and Muslims as well…


    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I guess these videos will get dredged up all the time to prove something or other. To me English people scuffling over religious matters seems pretty normal for them. When I worked there there was still massive hatred for Catholics and Muslims and racism that made an Australian blush. Maybe these British Muslims have adopted this feature of English culture?
    While all this is possible, it does not excuse anything that goes on in that video-clip. Not in my book, at any rate. Hitting a young woman (she is seen 23.46, to the left. Again at 23.58-24.00) is just low and lousy, especially if she has not provoked or hit you in the first place (as is very much the case here). Muslims and Islam is no exception to that principle, not in my book.

    As for racism… While it certainly exists in the world, it has zero to do with Catholicism and Islam - anybody who understands what racism actually is, knows that. And, it is irrelevant in this instance. It is a matter of culture, not race.

    - A
    Last edited by alhoon; May 20, 2022 at 12:14 AM. Reason: off topic part removed

  13. #153
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    Default Re: Female Christian activist attacked at ‘Speakers Corner’ (London)...

    Several off topic posts about superior cultures and marijuana have been deleted. Please stay on topic. This is the second thread warning. There won't be a third.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  14. #154

    Default Re: Female Christian activist attacked at ‘Speakers Corner’ (London)...

    A man has admitted preparing to murder a Christian preacher at Hyde Park's Speakers' Corner in a terrorist attack.
    Edward Little, 21, from Brighton, was carrying Ł5,000 with which he hoped to purchase a firearm, a passport and two phones when he was arrested last year.
    It was alleged his intended target was Hatun Tash, who regularly argued with other speakers, and her camera crew, as well as any police or soldiers.
    He pleaded guilty at the Old Bailey by video link from Belmarsh jail.

    Earlier this year, Little, of Pelham Street, denied preparing to commit acts of terrorism, but changed his plea and admitted the charge on Friday.
    He also admitted researching Hyde Park, where he planned to carry out the attack, collecting money to purchase a gun and travelling to buy it.
    Little was on his way into London in a taxi for which he had paid Ł300 when he was stopped and arrested on 23 September 2022.
    He had asked the driver if he could stop and pray at a mosque, although the driver had said there was not one on the way.
    [...]
    Little declined to answer questions in police interviews, but his mood changed when he was shown a YouTube video of the preacher and he launched himself across the table at an officer, swinging repeatedly with his fists before being restrained.
    He went on to admit assaulting the officer at Newbury police station on 28 September and was sentenced to 40 weeks in prison.

    Full article:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-65646464

  15. #155
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    Default Re: Female Christian activist attacked at ‘Speakers Corner’ (London)...

    I think all the people in the video are British?

    I recall almost all of the bigots I met in the UK also seemed to be steaming racists.

    Distinguishing racism and religious intolerance makes sense in a detached utopian discussion but in the real world I have found them common bedfellows. This is why I mention them together.

    If you hold every Muslim, as a group, responsible for the actions of the individuals in the video that's your business. Seems a bit collectivist, is that a part of British culture?

  16. #156
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    Default Re: Female Christian activist attacked at ‘Speakers Corner’ (London)...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I think all the people in the video are British?
    Not necessarily… But many probably are… At least on paper… Culturally speaking however - not so much… Screaming “Takbir! Allah Akbar!” is hardly part of British culture (last time I checked)…

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I recall almost all of the bigots I met in the UK also seemed to be steaming racists.
    Religious clashes, conflicts and criticisms have usually zero to do with racism. Race is irrelevant in that context – most of the time. Catholics, Protestants and Mohammedans are not any sort of race - never have been.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Distinguishing racism and religious intolerance makes sense in a detached utopian discussion but in the real world I have found them common bedfellows. This is why I mention them together.
    Well, I think you are fundamentally wrong on this note. They (racism and intolerance) don’t go together in this context. Intolerance, distrust or even plain dislike of foreign religion, movements, ideology or culture is not racism, never have been. It is just intolerance, distrust or plain dislike for that given ideological or cultural package/element/expression – not much else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    If you hold every Muslim, as a group, responsible for the actions of the individuals in the video that's your business. Seems a bit collectivist, is that a part of British culture?
    Well… The people acting up and screaming in that video, certainly act as a group, indirectly claiming that they are indeed representing their own collective/movement – at least, they damn well know that they do represent the Muslim collective in some sense to external eyes. As in all the folks that are explicitly not Muslims (the majority then, UK-wise). Much in the same way you will represent Australia as tourist in say Greece, whenever you carry around clear Aussie-markers or declare yourself loudly and clearly as an Australian, waving a flagg or something. The context might be sports or something else – but essentially the same kind of thing applies here in full. If that makes 100% sense or fair is of course debatable - but the circumstance is there for sure.

    If the Christians, Jews or Hindus (etc) had acted in the same way they surely would look just as bad, arrogant and disrupting as the(se) Muslims do in that video. Also note the glaring difference in frequency here - as that there are rather few such instances (if any) of the former – while there are tons of the latter doing this very kind of stuff all over YT and at Londons speakers corner. Purely coincidence? Fat chance...

    - A
    Last edited by Axalon; June 01, 2023 at 03:40 PM. Reason: Details...

  17. #157
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    Default Re: Female Christian activist attacked at ‘Speakers Corner’ (London)...

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    A man has admitted preparing to murder a Christian preacher at Hyde Park's Speakers' Corner in a terrorist attack.
    Edward Little, 21, from Brighton, was carrying Ł5,000 with which he hoped to purchase a firearm, a passport and two phones when he was arrested last year.
    It was alleged his intended target was Hatun Tash, who regularly argued with other speakers, and her camera crew, as well as any police or soldiers.
    He pleaded guilty at the Old Bailey by video link from Belmarsh jail.

    ... ... ...

    Full article:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-65646464
    Well, that certainly put post:2 to shame… Naturally, I am “super shocked” by all this... A screwed up and crazed Mohammedan terrorist plans to kill a high-profile uncomfortable/undesirable critic of Islam - who could have thought? Ultra surprising, right? I never thought I would see more of those... As if the 2021-attempt on her life was not enough...

    Personally, the name “Edward Little” was an unexpected twist for me - but beyond that this guy match up well with what I was expecting on such a note. He just "happened" to be an eager Muslim too - what a coincidence... I never saw that coming... BTW, here is a portrait of this guy - the self-confirmed terrorist and scheming would be murderer of Hatun Tash... In spoiler, folks...

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    - A
    Last edited by Axalon; June 01, 2023 at 04:42 PM. Reason: Details...

  18. #158
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    Default Re: Female Christian activist attacked at ‘Speakers Corner’ (London)...

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    The Facts and basic context:

    In 25th July (2021), at Hyde parks iconic ‘Speakers Corner’ (London) - ex-muslim (apostate), high-profile Islam critic and Christian activist Hatun Tash was attacked stabbed and cut by a currently unknown assailant. The result was not lethal, yet dramatic and bloody and she was later escorted by police to a hospital to treat the resulting slashes and cuts to her face and arm. She has previously been active at Speakers Corner regularly and often under dramatic forms, especially in her interactions with Muslims. She have aside from her public criticism of Islam, also played a part in forwarding evidence proving that the Koran are in fact not a single and unison book - but rather an entity of multiple different books in terms of both varying content and meaning. Thus shattering the old Islamic claim that the Koran is a singular, eternal and perfectly preserved scripture - due to its claimed divine origins. According to traditional Islamic mythos the Koran are the verbatim words of Allah, and have remained so since day 1. If Islamic tradition is to be believed – this evident variance is impossible - yet by methodically comparing page by page, from start to finish the dissimilarities becomes undeniable and evident. The core Islamic claim of a singular Koran is thus evidently false. Hatun Tash have certainly played a part in highlighting that circumstance (see YouTube). Naturally, this sort of activity has further vexed her relation to the Islamic faithfuls, beyond an already strained relation prior to that. At this point, no formal arrests have been made and thus the assailant remains free and unidentified, according to Scotland Yard…


    For Reference

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-preacher.html

    https://www.newsweek.com/suspect-who...-large-1614088

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Quran


    My stance/take on this event is

    1. The act was deliberate and planned. As anything else strike me as highly unlikely, on general terms. The other alternative is simply not credible (to me) – given the place, target and context.
    2. The motive is obviously related to Islam somehow. It makes clear sense, adds up all over, and it corresponds well with most ideas and doctrines in the Islamic sources. After all, Islam does not tolerate criticism or apostates very well (see hadiths and Korans).
    3. The attack has (probably) deliberate symbolical dimensions that go beyond the obvious target (Hatun Tash). After all, it happened in Speakers Corner and thus should probably be read as an attack upon freedom of speech in general, as well. In addition, it is also a deliberate attempt to silence further criticism of Islam at the Speaker’s Corner and elsewhere in general – goes without saying. Again, familiar tools such as violence, attacks, death threats and intimidation are deployed whenever Islam is targeted or threatened somehow. There are many examples of this in the past, related to Islam. There is no reason what so ever to believe this instance was/is any different.
    4. There is a permanent and fundamental conflict between core Islamic ideals and doctrines (see Korans and hadiths) and the western secular world and its freedoms that defines it. This entire event can be seen in light of that - as yet another expression and bloody example of that very conflict. I would argue that this event will probably only underline and escalate that conflict, and making it ever harder to ignore (on general terms).


    Alright, react, reflect and discuss my stance on this event…

    - A


    Let's start with the necessary disclosures:

    I presume to call myself a "christian".
    I would like -that is I wish/hope- the religio-mythology of Christianity to be true.
    I most certainly believe the words:
    "Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me."
    (Matthew 25:40 - Link)
    But to my chagrin I do not live my life that way, which probably means I have not earned this name.

    That being said, I find it a paragon of an oxymoron to (claim to) be a believer of any of the religions and then resort to "logic" and "evidence" in order to discredit other religions.
    Let me elaborate on the "oxymoron" part:
    Oxymoron is a composite Greek word:
    The first component is "οξύς" (pronounced oxis, with the accent on the second syllable).
    It means "sharp", or "acidic". We also encounter that part in "oxygen".
    The second component is "μωρός" (pronounced moros, with the accent on the second syllable).
    When used as a noun it means "infant" but when used as an adjective it means "infantile".
    So the meaning of "oxymoron" is a locution that is "vitriolically infantile".

    It is vitriolically infantile to be a believer of any of the religions and then resort to "logic" and "evidence" in order to discredit other religions.

    She has, however, demonstrated that Islam is one of the religions that cause people to commit crime and then claim that they were not responsible for it themselves in the style of:
    "Look what you made me do!"

    It reminds me of the dialogue:
    Christian: "Islam makes people violent".
    Muslim: "You dare say lies about my religion? I will kill you!"
    Christian: "Islam is ok".
    Muslim: "Alright, I will not kill you (...today)"

    And in my opinion a very real reason why the wokijahedin extend their solidarity to Muslims is because the Muslims' rage in the face of criticism is identical to the wokist's rage:
    "If you invalidate my idea of myself you are attacking the core of my existence and I do not perceive any difference between that and physical violence".

  19. #159

    Default Re: Female Christian activist attacked at ‘Speakers Corner’ (London)...

    More violence at Speaker's Corner (starts about 44 minutes in):

  20. #160

    Default Re: Female Christian activist attacked at ‘Speakers Corner’ (London)...

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    A man has admitted preparing to murder a Christian preacher at Hyde Park's Speakers' Corner in a terrorist attack.
    Edward Little, 21, from Brighton, was carrying Ł5,000 with which he hoped to purchase a firearm, a passport and two phones when he was arrested last year.
    It was alleged his intended target was Hatun Tash, who regularly argued with other speakers, and her camera crew, as well as any police or soldiers.
    He pleaded guilty at the Old Bailey by video link from Belmarsh jail.
    Full article:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-65646464
    A man who planned a gun attack at central London's Hyde Park has been jailed for at least 16 years.
    Edward Little, 22, had intended to kill Christian preacher Hatun Tash after travelling from Brighton to the capital on 23 September last year.
    He travelled by taxi with Ł5,000 to buy a firearm and bullets in south London when he was stopped by police and arrested.
    In May, Muslim convert Little admitted preparing to commit acts of terrorism.
    He was sentenced in his absence after he refused to attend Friday's Old Bailey hearing.

    Full article:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-67730535

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