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Thread: Rebelling Soldiers

  1. #1

    Default Rebelling Soldiers

    Hi,
    I would like to make it so that player controlled armies wandering around the campaign map without a loyal general have a high chance of becoming brigands, but so far what I seem to have accomplished is that this rarely happens AND that the AI is CONSTANTLY losing troops to this. I want the AI to never have to deal with this, they are more than incompetent enough!

    Side-question: is it normal and expected that all of these rebelling captains are given surnames the moment they rebel?

  2. #2
    Jadli's Avatar The Fallen God
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    Default Re: Rebelling Soldiers

    I assime you brigand_spawn_value and pirate_spawn_value in descr_strat, that affects how much to they spawn. Some time ago we described it ptetty well in some thread I believe, but I dont remember now... simply afaik the values divide 1, i.e, smaller numbers of it should cause more rebellions, if I remember correctly.

    But thats just part of it, the other main part is in descr_campaign_db under section "revolt". There you can also set a modifier for AI... i.e., you can make it to happen only to players...

    There are no right numbers to make armies rebel more, as its a combination of the values in the two files... you can use my values if you want, in my mod I have lot of rebels spawning around...

    Code:
       <revolt>
          <end_turn_modifier float="4"/>
          <excommunicated_modifier float="15"/>
          <new_leader_modifier float="20"/>
          <max_effective_loyalty float="7.0"/>
          <rebel_region_modifier float="2.0"/>
          <shadow_region_modifier float="2.0"/>
          <rebel_border_modifier float="1.25"/>
          <shadow_border_modifier float="1.25"/>
    	  <shadow_authority_modifier float="5.0"/>			<!-- modifies chance of characters rebelling to shadow faction by shadow leaders authority -->
          <shadow_authority_modifier_sett float="20.0"/>  <!-- modifies chance of characters rebelling in settlement revolts to shadow faction by shadow leader authority -->		
          <num_units_modifier float="1.05"/>
          <captain_modifier float="0.5"/>
          <min_revolt_chance float="0.0"/>
          <max_revolt_chance float="80.0"/>
          <ai_revolt_modifier float="0.5"/>
          <revolt_additional_armies bool="true"/>
          <revolt_crusading_armies bool="false"/>
       </revolt>
    And I use 100 for the the two values in descr_strat

    Then there is ofc also descr_rebel_factions where you can set the actual brigands and peasant revolts... afaik those are the one that spawn on their own (you kinda set there how often they spawn), shouldnt affect how often armies of yours turn rebel

  3. #3
    bitterhowl's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Rebelling Soldiers

    <ai_revolt_modifier float="0.5"/> - just make it 0.01 or even smaller. I think you asked about this thing.

    My sister, do you still recall
    The blue Hasan and Khalkhin-Gol?

    Because AI is dumb and full of errors.

  4. #4
    Gigantus's Avatar The older I get the more I feel like a child that pretends at being an adult.
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    Default Re: Rebelling Soldiers

    As bh says - that entry is a multiplier for the AI for all the values in that section. Do note the captain_modifier line as well - again a multiplier of all the values but for armies that do not contain a named character (general). Setting that to 2 would double the chances of a captain led army to revolt - used that in 1648 (in conjunction with a low first setting) to stop the player from sending multiple captain led stacks on the rampage.




  5. #5

    Default Re: Rebelling Soldiers

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    As bh says - that entry is a multiplier for the AI for all the values in that section. Do note the captain_modifier line as well - again a multiplier of all the values but for armies that do not contain a named character (general). Setting that to 2 would double the chances of a captain led army to revolt - used that in 1648 (in conjunction with a low first setting) to stop the player from sending multiple captain led stacks on the rampage.
    This post really caught my interest. Would you or anyone mind elaborating a bit further? How can I increase the likelihood of a captain turning rebel, both only for my faction and for all factions? Is it possible to adjust the circumstances in which the captain rebels, or are leader authority and luck the only factors ever taken into account?

    I ask the latter because I consider it very unrealistic for an entire army to defect from a country that is large, prosperous, winning, and led by a respectable ruler, for instance, but it makes sense to defect from a small bankrupt faction led by a vicious ruler.
    Last edited by es157; July 23, 2021 at 01:54 PM.

  6. #6
    Gigantus's Avatar The older I get the more I feel like a child that pretends at being an adult.
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    Default Re: Rebelling Soldiers

    The captain modifier simply takes all the other values and then modifies the result: below one and it's less likely to affect a captain led army then a general led army, above one it's more likely.
    The AI modifier then takes that value and modifies it further, but only for the AI, same principle: below one and it's less likely to affect a AI led army then a player led army, above one it's more likely.
    The main leader adjective all this is based on I believe is authority, which means you would need to design some triggers that add\substract authority based on empire size and income.




  7. #7

    Default Re: Rebelling Soldiers

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    The captain modifier simply takes all the other values and then modifies the result: below one and it's less likely to affect a captain led army then a general led army, above one it's more likely.
    The AI modifier then takes that value and modifies it further, but only for the AI, same principle: below one and it's less likely to affect a AI led army then a player led army, above one it's more likely.
    The main leader adjective all this is based on I believe is authority, which means you would need to design some triggers that add\substract authority based on empire size and income.
    See, I believe this entry is in vanilla:

    <captain_modifier float="0.4"/>
    Does that mean in vanilla a captain is more loyal than a general? Just for clarification sake.

    Another question, what about these entries below? What does it change if I replace "false" with "true"? And if I increase that "7.0" value?

    <revolt_additional_armies bool="false"/>

    <max_effective_loyalty float="7.0"/>
    Last edited by es157; July 24, 2021 at 08:51 AM.

  8. #8
    Gigantus's Avatar The older I get the more I feel like a child that pretends at being an adult.
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    Default Re: Rebelling Soldiers

    Does that mean in vanilla a captain is more loyal than a general? - Yes (kind of), as the values applied to him are only a fraction of that of a general. A general however has positive modifiers by way of traits.

    false\true - I can only speculate that this is connected to leadership change when a penalty gets applied, no precise info here.

    loyalty float - the max level of loyalty that will provide a bonus\positive value




  9. #9

    Default Re: Rebelling Soldiers

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    loyalty float - the max level of loyalty that will provide a bonus\positive value
    Does that mean having more than seven loyalty points is useless? What use is there for loyalty, other than to decrease the chance of revolt?

  10. #10
    Jadli's Avatar The Fallen God
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    Default Re: Rebelling Soldiers

    Well, its not useless, there should be some threshold over which a character cant rebel. You can set it to 10 for your mod, hence only 10 star generals would be immune to rebelling. I believe loyalty has some other uses as well, doesnt it affect the price of bribing a general, corruption and stuff like that? Considering its not that easy to get loyalty traits, and I believe the default value of a general is 5 (loyalty_starter trait), you could consider loyalty below 5 to disloyalty, and above 5 as the actual loyalty, hence why the threshold is around 5 at most mods (thats how it is in vanilla as well afaik), which seems reasonable (iny mod I increased it to 7 for some reasons..). Also keep in mind a loyal general can become disloyal, through traits... therefore, having 1 or more positive loyalty point doesnt mean the character is never going to rebel. Well, up to everyone how one sets it in his mod...

    Anyways, as you can see some things are not still fully known, especially revolt_additional armies
    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post

    false\true - I can only speculate that this is connected to leadership change when a penalty gets applied, no precise info here.
    I dont think so, for that there is the "new_leader_modifier". I think this false/true line must have something to do with when there are perhaps more generals in an army? Or possibly some chain rebellion effect ...


    But none of this applies to generals/armies inside settlement. Afaik, those can never revolt due to loyalty of a governor, only due to riots...


    BTW, forgot to answer to this as well
    Quote Originally Posted by UrienRheged View Post

    Side-question: is it normal and expected that all of these rebelling captains are given surnames the moment they rebel?
    Yea, I actually had some weird stuff with this as well, sometimes they get surnames and stuff... but only from particular factions/regions, so I suppose it has something to do with how is the original faction set up...

  11. #11

    Default Re: Rebelling Soldiers

    You're right! One faction (with surnames! in its descr_names file) doesn't yield rebel captains with surnames and another does! No idea why. Is it culture-related?

    Another question regarding descr_campaign.db: Why does it sometimes take a long while for these changes to take place and sometimes it seems instant? Or is this just in my imagination, fueled by the randomness of it all? I edited the ai modifier for revolts ages ago and still the map is filled with surnamed captains from other factions!

  12. #12
    Jadli's Avatar The Fallen God
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    Default Re: Rebelling Soldiers

    You have to start a new campaign perhaps?
    Last edited by Jadli; July 28, 2021 at 07:38 AM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Rebelling Soldiers

    Nah, I quit the game and start a new campaign every ten minutes or so to be sure.
    Last edited by UrienRheged; July 30, 2021 at 05:27 AM. Reason: (pressed send accidentally)

  14. #14
    Gigantus's Avatar The older I get the more I feel like a child that pretends at being an adult.
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    Default Re: Rebelling Soldiers

    I am fairly sure the changes you make take place immediately, it will be the randomness of it's application that gives the appearance of delay.




  15. #15
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Rebelling Soldiers

    Guys, I've got additional questions on the values for the players' generals:

    <end_turn_modifier float="1.5"/>
    This defines probability that a general deserts (an unknown base value multiplied by the Loyalty attribute, limited by the number in <max_effective_loyalty float="7.0"/>)

    <excommunicated_modifier float="15"/>
    This defines probability of a general deserting when a catholic faction gets excommunicated (one time, or each turn?) (multiplied as above)

    <new_leader_modifier float="10"/>
    This defines probability of a general deserting when a FL changes. (multiplied as above)

    We do not know the base probability, or it's eg. 1 percentage point ?

    (I understand that the numbers are multiplied for the AI, as discussed in this thread)

  16. #16
    Jadli's Avatar The Fallen God
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    Default Re: Rebelling Soldiers

    Dont think anybody can confirm or deny this on 100%, as its not simple to check, but I think you are right about all these. Pretty sure excommunicated one is effective every turn

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