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Thread: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

  1. #81
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    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    [QUOTE=Vanoi;16037929]I get the hatred of Batista and his regime but I'd argue this isn't the 1950s or 60s anymore. What ever is left of Batista and his regime these days are so likely disconnected from what Cuba is like now I don't see them being able to come back to power or even worth putting into power (In the scenario where the US just installs someone) at all.

    The US tends to stubbornly persecute states they feel should be their clients. They've had a hard-on for Iran since 1979, Cuba since 1959, and North Korea since 1950. I guess corporations have longer memories than many people? However I'm unsure of what commercial interests were offended by Stalin's lackeys in Pyongyang.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    It's not like the US is offering the Cuban protesters a government. That's be up to the Cubans.
    Like when the Afghans chose Karzai? I have no doubt the US would rubber stamp practically any tyrant who promises them what they want to hear, they have back some absolute ****s in the past: Noriega, Pinochet and Batista are examples of the calibre of leaders they will stoop to supporting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Talking about what government could be in charge is premature. You still have to overthrow the current government. My question is how does this change occur without bloodshed? This could just end up like Myanmar where some protesters picked up arms and allied themselves with a rebel group. Call me cynical, but civil war is the best I can see changing anything in Cuba. The government will not let go without a fight.
    You make a lot of sense, the current regime has a very little to lose by hanging on like grim death. Sadly the vindictive intransigence of the US plays its part here.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  2. #82

    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops
    Like when the Afghans chose Karzai? I have no doubt the US would rubber stamp practically any tyrant who promises them what they want to hear, they have back some absolute ****s in the past: Noriega, Pinochet and Batista are examples of the calibre of leaders they will stoop to supporting.
    Sooner or later, the tankies always admit they don’t actually have a relevant point about the issue at hand, they just want to reee about the US, even in hypothetical scenarios.
    You make a lot of sense, the current regime has a very little to lose by hanging on like grim death. Sadly the vindictive intransigence of the US plays its part here.
    >ok I admit I don’t have a leg to stand on here, but have I told you how bad America is?
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  3. #83

    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    Cuban government is not going to give Cubans freedom and neither will USA. USA government isn't even giving their people freedom and even threatens its own people with jets and nukes. What USA would do is set up a corrupt "pro-Western" government which will repress and rob Cuban people even more then the current commie one does, except American corporation will make their lives even bigger hell.

  4. #84
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    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    The US tends to stubbornly persecute states they feel should be their clients. They've had a hard-on for Iran since 1979, Cuba since 1959, and North Korea since 1950. I guess corporations have longer memories than many people? However I'm unsure of what commercial interests were offended by Stalin's lackeys in Pyongyang.
    Much of North Korea and Iran's case is that these regimes continue destabilize their regions and threaten to nuke American allies.

    Like when the Afghans chose Karzai? I have no doubt the US would rubber stamp practically any tyrant who promises them what they want to hear, they have back some absolute ****s in the past: Noriega, Pinochet and Batista are examples of the calibre of leaders they will stoop to supporting.


    You make a lot of sense, the current regime has a very little to lose by hanging on like grim death. Sadly the vindictive intransigence of the US plays its part here.
    We can't compare the US interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan to possible options for Cuba. The Middle Eastern countries did not ask to become democracies, there was no popular movement to urge their regimes towards liberalism. In this case, however, we have a popular protest movement emerging that wants a change in the regime, namely democratization, and so therefore the US has the signal to help.

    I think the US should intervene in so far as providing the Patria y Vida movement with life supplies, moral support, and organizational advice, with the idea of directing them to push the current government out of power and organizing elections. Once the elections happen, the US should withdraw and sit back, merely observing the electoral process for fairness. They absolutely should not have any role in economic privatization. Then, with the first democratically-elected government in power, lift the embargo.

    It appears to me that the time of puppet dictators is passed. I mean, America even turned on Noriega and invaded Panama City to put him in jail in the United States. During the Cold War, pragmatic priorities around anti-Soviet containment took precedence over democratization efforts, but now there is no need for such dictators anymore without an ideological enemy like the Soviets, and the American public would be incensed at the idea of supporting another dictatorship like that. And even if the Americans tried to import the Miami exiles back into Cuba, the Cuban population wouldn't buy their return, and would instead prefer to elect an islander instead.

    Really, when regarding what to do about Cuba, think less Pinochet's Chile, and more of the Warsaw Pact Collapse.
    Last edited by EmperorBatman999; July 19, 2021 at 10:26 AM.

  5. #85
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    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    [QUOTE=Cyclops;16038134][QUOTE=Vanoi;16037929]I get the hatred of Batista and his regime but I'd argue this isn't the 1950s or 60s anymore. What ever is left of Batista and his regime these days are so likely disconnected from what Cuba is like now I don't see them being able to come back to power or even worth putting into power (In the scenario where the US just installs someone) at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    The US tends to stubbornly persecute states they feel should be their clients. They've had a hard-on for Iran since 1979, Cuba since 1959, and North Korea since 1950. I guess corporations have longer memories than many people? However I'm unsure of what commercial interests were offended by Stalin's lackeys in Pyongyang.
    North Korea is a horrible example that had nothing to do with commerical or corporate interests.

    Iran is better. If the US invaded and occupied Iran, do you think the US could simply re-install a Shah and the old regime and go back to business as usual? No. It's not even remotely possible. It's no different bwith Cuba. There's no realistic way to bring the old regime back to power.



    Like when the Afghans chose Karzai? I have no doubt the US would rubber stamp practically any tyrant who promises them what they want to hear, they have back some absolute ****s in the past: Noriega, Pinochet and Batista are examples of the calibre of leaders they will stoop to supporting.
    And all are examples of coups or occupations. So unless the US invaded and occupied or coups the government how does the US install their Batista?

    You make a lot of sense, the current regime has a very little to lose by hanging on like grim death. Sadly the vindictive intransigence of the US plays its part here.
    The embargo is a problem that's needs to end if only because the embargo likely helped the Castro's maintain power on the island.

  6. #86

    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    The point is that any government that would be installed by US would be first and foremost its complete puppet regime which would prioritize interests of US government and corporations more then those of citizens.
    That's how every regime that came to be from US invasion/coup is like.
    I don't see anything bad with Cubans going full Pinochet on its commie government, but the last thing they need is to replace it with some CIA whoreshow.

  7. #87
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    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    North Korea is a horrible example that had nothing to do with commerical or corporate interests.
    Yes I'm guessing its about protecting US interests in Japan/forward position against China, but it was a bit of a blunder getting in there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Iran is better. If the US invaded and occupied Iran, do you think the US could simply re-install a Shah and the old regime and go back to business as usual? No. It's not even remotely possible. It's no different bwith Cuba. There's no realistic way to bring the old regime back to power.
    Indeed but US foreign policy (like most counties) is usually simplified to "Eyebrows Man Bad" or "Cigar Man Bad" so the narrative is not nakedly about keeping US Oil in charge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    And all are examples of coups or occupations. So unless the US invaded and occupied or coups the government how does the US install their Batista?
    The US have done it often in South America, there's a playbook with a bunch of set plays (army steps in/return of the King/straight up invasion/proxy insurgents etc etc) and they usually work.

    Recently Venezuala survived a coup attempt (cue some brainlet simp insisting "there are good guys and bad guys and [check notes] THIS dictator is a good guy") which is a surprise because usually when the US presses the button the government falls. The US has a recognised sphere of influence in the region and topples governments as they see fit. This isn't wrong or right, its power politics. Not sure why it went wrong in Cuba (my thesis is the US backed a particularly rotten regime).

    I think the US has managed to establish normalised relations with Vietnam even though they accepted a bunch of refugees (which the commies would call collaborators). Again, why hasn't this happened with Cuba? My thesis would be either the persistent Oil Company policy is particularly savage or the displaced regime (the likely replacement government) is persistently unattractive.

    Not suggesting they have Battista's brain in a jar but there is a big and somewhat influential Cuban faction in Florida, and they have political influence so that means they have money. Not sure where the money comes from, good luck to them, but they look a bit like a displaced oligarchy, and the oligarchy that was displaced in the 1950's weren't nuns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    The embargo is a problem that's needs to end if only because the embargo likely helped the Castro's maintain power on the island.
    Yes I think you're right. There also has to be an alternative. No doubt Castro murdered any competent competition. Can we find a Cuban Gorbachev? Can we prevent a Cuban Putin/Noriega?
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

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    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    Been following the Breitbart toxicity on this and people seem to "want" Latin immigrants now? Or what do they want USA to do? Invade? Somehow they think the democrats are to blame because of all that is happening.

    It is so sad how masses seem to be rallied with toxic political lies to be riled and the capitol events were not enough to make them understand....
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  9. #89

    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan
    Been following the Breitbart toxicity on this and people seem to "want" Latin immigrants now?
    The Cuban ones, yeah. In fact I’m supportive of a 10:1 trade - 10 flag-burning American leftists deported to Cuba for every 1 American flag-waving Cuban protester invited to come live in Florida, where they probably already have family anyway. The Cuban people who hate Castro can escape, and the leftists who idolize him/hate America can go live there. Win win.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; July 21, 2021 at 10:16 AM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  10. #90

    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    The reason why Democrats in US hate Cubans is the same why EU liberals hate Poles and Hungarians. People that lived under communist dictatorships aren't very likely to buy liberal/marxist propaganda, as living in such environments helped one develop a sense of immunity for that.
    They'd rather have economic migrants from non-marxist third world, since those help drive labor value down and have low economic and social expectations, all while you can sell them welfare and privileges in exchange for votes.

  11. #91

    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    The Cuban ones, yeah. In fact I’m supportive of a 10:1 trade - 10 flag-burning American leftists deported to Cuba for every 1 American flag-waving Cuban protester invited to come live in Florida, where they probably already have family anyway. The Cuban people who hate Castro can escape, and the leftists who idolize him/hate America can go live there. Win win.
    Ditto with the Hong Kong -ese? -ers? -ians?.
    Last edited by Infidel144; July 21, 2021 at 03:40 PM.

  12. #92
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    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Been following the Breitbart toxicity on this and people seem to "want" Latin immigrants now? Or what do they want USA to do? Invade? Somehow they think the democrats are to blame because of all that is happening.

    It is so sad how masses seem to be rallied with toxic political lies to be riled and the capitol events were not enough to make them understand....
    We truly live in a benighted age when we consider the idea of democracy and human rights for all people to be a far-right issue.

    Regarding immigrants: I comment on the hypocrisy that a Cuban immigrant to the US, now a leading official in the American government, won't extend the opportunity he had to a new generation of people fleeing political persecution. I'm also disappointed that this presidential administration, for all its bluster about becoming a friendlier and more welcoming country in the wake of Trump, won't use this opportunity to make good on its promise to become that friendlier and more welcoming country.

    In terms of intervention: I don't think anybody anywhere here is calling for a Bay of Pigs 2.0 or sending the US cavalry to another San Juan Hill. What I think most of the pro-democracy people like me want is for the US to actively make a statement of support for the protests and to actively aid them by supplying them with life supplies and organizational guidance, so as to make the movement more resilient against government attacks and to make it strong enough to actual oust the Cuban regime out of power and pave the way for elections.

    Finally, I think the people like me are outraged at the train of excuses the American Social-Democrats are making for the Cuban regime simply because they seem to think the Communist Party of Cuba is ideological kin: it's misguided nonsense, and for the Americans, national self-flagellation.
    Last edited by EmperorBatman999; July 21, 2021 at 03:05 PM.

  13. #93

    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    We truly live in a benighted age when we consider the idea of democracy and human rights for all people to be a far-right issue.

    Regarding immigrants: I comment on the hypocrisy that a Cuban immigrant to the US, now a leading official in the American government, won't extend the opportunity he had to a new generation of people fleeing political persecution. I'm also disappointed that this presidential administration, for all its bluster about becoming a friendlier and more welcoming country in the wake of Trump, won't use this opportunity to make good on its promise to become that friendlier and more welcoming country.
    Not just the administration. Here, for example, I have noted exactly one person who decried the immigration policy under the prior administration saying anything about it under Biden (in my 'real life', it is exactly none, I had a couple dozen 'friends' who were constantly posting about it right up until the 2920 election. Now? Crickets...).

    Finally, I think the people like me are outraged at the train of excuses the American Social-Democrats are making for the Cuban regime simply because they seem to think the Communist Party of Cuba is ideological kin: it's misguided nonsense, and for the Americans, national self-flagellation.
    Or it is ideological kin (but the "social-Democrats" are too gutless to openly admit it...).
    Last edited by Infidel144; July 21, 2021 at 04:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    Half ass support like "life supplies" isn't going to help the Cubans overthrow the government. In fact it could backfire as the Cuban regime could easily use that support as propaganda. They could easily claim the protests are nothing but the work of the US and the US supplying them with help would only confirm that to many Cubans.

    The Cubans have to do this by themselves.

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    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    We truly live in a benighted age when we consider the idea of democracy and human rights for all people to be a far-right issue.

    Regarding immigrants: I comment on the hypocrisy that a Cuban immigrant to the US, now a leading official in the American government, won't extend the opportunity he had to a new generation of people fleeing political persecution. I'm also disappointed that this presidential administration, for all its bluster about becoming a friendlier and more welcoming country in the wake of Trump, won't use this opportunity to make good on its promise to become that friendlier and more welcoming country.

    In terms of intervention: I don't think anybody anywhere here is calling for a Bay of Pigs 2.0 or sending the US cavalry to another San Juan Hill. What I think most of the pro-democracy people like me want is for the US to actively make a statement of support for the protests and to actively aid them by supplying them with life supplies and organizational guidance, so as to make the movement more resilient against government attacks and to make it strong enough to actual oust the Cuban regime out of power and pave the way for elections.

    Finally, I think the people like me are outraged at the train of excuses the American Social-Democrats are making for the Cuban regime simply because they seem to think the Communist Party of Cuba is ideological kin: it's misguided nonsense, and for the Americans, national self-flagellation.
    The Democratic establishment and the Biden administration is backing or supporting the Cuban regime? There might be "sympathy" among left leaning people towards Cuba but I doubt there is an establishment-level support for Cuba at an elite level?
    Where is this idea coming from?

    The far right issue isn't support for human rights or democracy...it is that somehow, radicalized folk are, as has been the case historically, only playing a blame game for further polarization with inflammatory rhetoric. I have not seen the democrat party back the Cuba stance nor support it. At worst, Obama tried a very specific "lets talk" approach to EVERY country the USA has viewed with hostility. That is about it. Obama's strategy did not work, but any sane person knows that Obama's strategy wasnt to unleash a jewish plot to create a communist muslim pedophile land, which seems to be the common conspiracy among average Republican follower. Other than that, there is not reason to say that DEMOCRATS=CUBA!!11!!! they bring commism to America ehmegeeeerd. This is totally irrational and toxic towards a democracy that needs common ground for exchange of ideas.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

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    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Half ass support like "life supplies" isn't going to help the Cubans overthrow the government. In fact it could backfire as the Cuban regime could easily use that support as propaganda. They could easily claim the protests are nothing but the work of the US and the US supplying them with help would only confirm that to many Cubans.

    The Cubans have to do this by themselves.
    If anything, those concerns are irrelevant, as the Cuban government already blames every misfortunate on America's meddling, and this protest is no different.

    What would full measures consist of? Sending weapons? That would only deteriorate the situation even more when we are ideally trying to seek a Velvet Revolution.

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    The Democratic establishment and the Biden administration is backing or supporting the Cuban regime? There might be "sympathy" among left leaning people towards Cuba but I doubt there is an establishment-level support for Cuba at an elite level?
    Where is this idea coming from?

    The far right issue isn't support for human rights or democracy...it is that somehow, radicalized folk are, as has been the case historically, only playing a blame game for further polarization with inflammatory rhetoric. I have not seen the democrat party back the Cuba stance nor support it. At worst, Obama tried a very specific "lets talk" approach to EVERY country the USA has viewed with hostility. That is about it. Obama's strategy did not work, but any sane person knows that Obama's strategy wasnt to unleash a jewish plot to create a communist muslim pedophile land, which seems to be the common conspiracy among average Republican follower. Other than that, there is not reason to say that DEMOCRATS=CUBA!!11!!! they bring commism to America ehmegeeeerd. This is totally irrational and toxic towards a democracy that needs common ground for exchange of ideas.
    I never said the Democrat establishment was pro-Cuban regime; they are, as you said, only for the status quo ("Cuba is communist, but we have the embargo, and we're not going to do anything about any of it"). I was speaking of the left wing of the Democratic Party as well as their allies such as BLM, who all readily made excuses for the Cuban regime and have waived it of responsibility for all of its atrocities. That isn't particularly representative of Social Democracy, either, as I don't really see Germany, Austria, or Finland offering the same sympathy to Cuba which the progressive faction of the Democrats are doing. It is a betrayal of our ideals of free democracy to apologize for dictatorship, whether you are a democrat (lower-case) of the free market or socialist varieties.
    Last edited by EmperorBatman999; July 21, 2021 at 06:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    If anything, those concerns are irrelevant, as the Cuban government already blames every misfortunate on America's meddling, and this protest is no different.
    Difference being that the classic tactic of blaming the US for economic troubles because of the embargo didn't work because Cubans knew the embargo didn't cause the current troubles they're expierencing.

    The US supported the Venezuelan opposition with money, supplies, and sanctions against Maduro. Yet it didn't work. Maduro despite his country being completely at this point still clings on.

    What would full measures consist of? Sending weapons? That would only deteriorate the situation even more when we are ideally trying to seek a Velvet Revolution.
    How did protesting peacefully work out in Myanmar? Syria? The former is on the brink of civil war if not already while Syria has been a war-torn country for the last 10 years.

    You are not going to overthrow the Cuban regime without bloodshed. They still have support among the populace and absolutely zero reasons to accept any significant demands from the protesters.

  18. #98

    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    The US supported the Venezuelan opposition with money, supplies, and sanctions against Maduro. Yet it didn't work. Maduro despite his country being completely at this point still clings on.
    Pretty sure that has to do with the support of other foreign powers who want the Socialist farce in Venezuela to continue for their own strategic goals.


    How did protesting peacefully work out in Myanmar? Syria? The former is on the brink of civil war if not already while Syria has been a war-torn country for the last 10 years.
    The way NATO powers intervened in Syria didn't help either.

  19. #99
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    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    We truly live in a benighted age when we consider the idea of democracy and human rights for all people to be a far-right issue.
    Please don't say US if US troops invaded Cuba they'd be welcomed as liberators.

    The US is not offering Cuba democracy and human rights, its imposing a pretty savage economic punishment. The displaced faction was a pornocracy, and there's not reason (looking at other US efforts at Democracy and human rights like Iraq and Afghanistan) for Cubans to change their government. The US has to improve the offer. Even if they did, on recent showing, who in their right mind would believe them?
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  20. #100

    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Please don't say US if US troops invaded Cuba they'd be welcomed as liberators.

    The US is not offering Cuba democracy and human rights, its imposing a pretty savage economic punishment. The displaced faction was a pornocracy, and there's not reason (looking at other US efforts at Democracy and human rights like Iraq and Afghanistan) for Cubans to change their government. The US has to improve the offer. Even if they did, on recent showing, who in their right mind would believe them?
    Stop saying America should help the Cuban people!! No matter what the Cuban government does the only relevant thing here is that the US is bad because the Middle East ok?!?
    Spoiler for tankies be wildin fam


    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

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