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Thread: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

  1. #101

    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    The Democratic establishment and the Biden administration is backing or supporting the Cuban regime? There might be "sympathy" among left leaning people towards Cuba but I doubt there is an establishment-level support for Cuba at an elite level?
    Where is this idea coming from?

    The far right issue isn't support for human rights or democracy...it is that somehow, radicalized folk are, as has been the case historically, only playing a blame game for further polarization with inflammatory rhetoric. I have not seen the democrat party back the Cuba stance nor support it. At worst, Obama tried a very specific "lets talk" approach to EVERY country the USA has viewed with hostility. That is about it. Obama's strategy did not work, but any sane person knows that Obama's strategy wasnt to unleash a jewish plot to create a communist muslim pedophile land, which seems to be the common conspiracy among average Republican follower. Other than that, there is not reason to say that DEMOCRATS=CUBA!!11!!! they bring commism to America ehmegeeeerd. This is totally irrational and toxic towards a democracy that needs common ground for exchange of ideas.
    As it was pointed out above, its not as much about Democrats liking Castro, but more about Democrats hating Cuban-Americans, since that demographic will never vote for them.
    Same reason why EU liberals hate Poles, Hungarians and other people from former Eastern Block - they know that people that lived under totalitarian systems will reject their ideology and have stronger immunity against blatant propaganda, then pampered Western Europeans who never experienced such thing.

  2. #102
    EmperorBatman999's Avatar I say, what, what?
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    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Please don't say US if US troops invaded Cuba they'd be welcomed as liberators.

    The US is not offering Cuba democracy and human rights, its imposing a pretty savage economic punishment. The displaced faction was a pornocracy, and there's not reason (looking at other US efforts at Democracy and human rights like Iraq and Afghanistan) for Cubans to change their government. The US has to improve the offer. Even if they did, on recent showing, who in their right mind would believe them?
    Again, I never proposed a ground invasion. That would simply destroy the pro-democratic good will the Cubans might have. Invasion would only be justifiable if something really extreme happened, such as if the Cuban government used chemical weapons on the protesters, or if either a pro- or anti-government group tried to storm Guantanamo Bay. Both are unlikely to happen. Likewise, I never advocated bringing back Battista: this new regime will have to be governed by the islanders, not the exiles. The US will have to offer support from relatively afar, as we've done with other pro-democracy demonstrations. America didn't invade Tunisia in 2010, and the US didn't invade across the Iron Curtain when Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and East Germany decided to overthrow their communist dictators.

    So, because people are cynical about the United States and its role in the world, nobody can get their democratic rights anyway? Are we really going to tell the people of the world living under dictatorship that it is too late to become a democracy and too late to secure their natural rights to life and property, and that they will need to live under the terror of dictatorship and poverty for the rest of humankind's existence, all because "America is bad"?

    I question how terrible and "savage" America's "economic punishment" would be. Would it be any worse than the world of deprivation, poverty, and shortage which the Cuban people have lived under thanks to the communist command economy?

  3. #103

    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    So, because people are cynical about the United States and its role in the world, nobody can get their democratic rights anyway? Are we really going to tell the people of the world living under dictatorship that it is too late to become a democracy and too late to secure their natural rights to life and property, and that they will need to live under the terror of dictatorship and poverty for the rest of humankind's existence, all because "America is bad"?
    Because the days of Marshall Plan are long gone. Becoming an American client state ensures neither freedom nor higher living standards, they'd end up stuck with another dictatorship which would do the same thing, but this time with rainbow flags and McDonalds signs and crippling exploitation by American megacorporations.

  4. #104

    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Because the days of Marshall Plan are long gone. Becoming an American client state ensures neither freedom nor higher living standards, they'd end up stuck with another dictatorship which would do the same thing, but this time with rainbow flags and McDonalds signs and crippling exploitation by American megacorporations.
    Ok, then there’s no reason to ease restrictions to allow American businesses to participate in the Cuban economy, nor try to help undermine the communist regime. Wouldn’t want the decadent whores of American capitalism to bespoil the maidenhood of a free and independent Cuba. Also, luv that auth right and auth left are on the same page here, as is more common than either would like to admit.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; July 22, 2021 at 10:32 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".
    “To live without faith, without a heritage to defend, without battling constantly for truth, is not to live but to ‘get along’; we must never just ‘get along’.” - Pier Giorgio Frassati

  5. #105
    EmperorBatman999's Avatar I say, what, what?
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    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Because the days of Marshall Plan are long gone. Becoming an American client state ensures neither freedom nor higher living standards, they'd end up stuck with another dictatorship which would do the same thing, but this time with rainbow flags and McDonalds signs and crippling exploitation by American megacorporations.
    This is a fanciful nostalgia that doesn't bear with the facts of reality. The Marshall Plan always had strings attached and was driven by American corporate interests.

    For example, here is the story of Coca-Cola in France; this is on Jstor if any students here have access: https://www.jstor.org/stable/286280. I actually had Dr. Kuisel as a professor and learned this from his class.

    During World War II, American troops introduced Coca-Cola to Europe, where it soon found a market among the Europeans wherever the Americans marched. However, very quickly after the war, its popularity began to concern French winemakers, who believed that American soda pop was going to replace wine as the national drink of France. So the French winemaker guilds and the Communist Party of France began to push to have Coca-Cola banned from France, while groups of angry winemakers began vandalizing stores and warehouses which were selling the soda. The French government thus began to move to ban the drink, which alarmed Coke's executives in the United States. Coca-Cola began lobbying the American government, which then resulted in U.S. diplomats basically telling the French government, "No Coke, no Marshall Plan." The French government, seeing the obvious benefits of the Marshall Plan, chose to keep Coca-Cola in France.

    Yet, the fears of an American corporate takeover of France's beverage culture were completely unfounded. Wine continues to be the national drink of France, and it remains one of France's most influential export products.

    American foreign policy and foreign aid have always been tied to corporate interest, but that doesn't mean it's bad aid and bad policy.

  6. #106
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    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    This is a fanciful nostalgia that doesn't bear with the facts of reality. The Marshall Plan always had strings attached and was driven by American corporate interests.

    For example, here is the story of Coca-Cola in France; this is on Jstor if any students here have access: https://www.jstor.org/stable/286280. I actually had Dr. Kuisel as a professor and learned this from his class.

    During World War II, American troops introduced Coca-Cola to Europe, where it soon found a market among the Europeans wherever the Americans marched. However, very quickly after the war, its popularity began to concern French winemakers, who believed that American soda pop was going to replace wine as the national drink of France. So the French winemaker guilds and the Communist Party of France began to push to have Coca-Cola banned from France, while groups of angry winemakers began vandalizing stores and warehouses which were selling the soda. The French government thus began to move to ban the drink, which alarmed Coke's executives in the United States. Coca-Cola began lobbying the American government, which then resulted in U.S. diplomats basically telling the French government, "No Coke, no Marshall Plan." The French government, seeing the obvious benefits of the Marshall Plan, chose to keep Coca-Cola in France.

    Yet, the fears of an American corporate takeover of France's beverage culture were completely unfounded. Wine continues to be the national drink of France, and it remains one of France's most influential export products.

    American foreign policy and foreign aid have always been tied to corporate interest, but that doesn't mean it's bad aid and bad policy.
    America was never gonna overthrow or instigate a coup in France. However, between invading and instigating coups against countries that don't kowtow to corporate interests, training and supporting right-wing death squads, and support for dictators butchering their own people, American foreign/corporate policy in the third world is almost always bad.
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  7. #107

    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    Thursday’s sanctions are “just the beginning -- the United States will continue to sanction individuals responsible for oppression of the Cuban people,” he said.

    The U.S. is also attempting to provide internet access to Cubans after the government in Havana shut it off, weighing how to enable remittances from Cubans in the U.S. to relatives back home and plans to restaff the American embassy, Biden said.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...fter-crackdown
    Wtf did Joe just do a based?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".
    “To live without faith, without a heritage to defend, without battling constantly for truth, is not to live but to ‘get along’; we must never just ‘get along’.” - Pier Giorgio Frassati

  8. #108
    Tribunus
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    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    Again, I never proposed a ground invasion. That would simply destroy the pro-democratic good will the Cubans might have. Invasion would only be justifiable if something really extreme happened, such as if the Cuban government used chemical weapons on the protesters, or if either a pro- or anti-government group tried to storm Guantanamo Bay. Both are unlikely to happen.
    Sorry I wasn't implying you were, I was referencing the unrealistic lies told by Rumsfeld about Iraq. They are relevant because the US does not grant democracy as a favour, nor should it.

    I don't think the US requires some extreme act to get involved in toppling South and Central American regimes, they usually do it when US company interests (usually oil or fruit) are infringed and that threshold was passed decades ago in Cuba.

    I'm not saying tis right or wrong, but we have to expect a large power will protect its interests in its own backyard. I think its pretty normal for the US to have a huge say in Mexico and points south. As a loyal ally I'd like it to be less savage than it often is. Makes it easier to eat the sandwich of reality if the bread is nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    Likewise, I never advocated bringing back Battista: this new regime will have to be governed by the islanders, not the exiles. The US will have to offer support from relatively afar, as we've done with other pro-democracy demonstrations. America didn't invade Tunisia in 2010, and the US didn't invade across the Iron Curtain when Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and East Germany decided to overthrow their communist dictators.
    Sorry to state the obvious, but Batista is definitely still relevant. The reason the US has imposed sanctions is because Castro nationalised some US land holdings. US companies came to dominate the Cuban economy especially under the Batista regime (but also under previous regimes). The reason Batista is still relevant is because the US is running sanction to punish Cuba for upsetting that arrangement. Subsequently the excuses have changed, some nonsense about democracy or something, but its clearly nonsense. Cuba is being punished for not continuing the Batista style relationship.

    The US has less reach into Europe , and there are plenty of alternate allies there so of course their offer has more sugar on it. However its clear from Ukraine, Poland, and Hungary's examples that the US isn't inflexibly committed to 100% democracy in all states, nor should they be. They want stable regimes they can rely on and profit from (and hopefully with).

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    So, because people are cynical about the United States and its role in the world, nobody can get their democratic rights anyway? Are we really going to tell the people of the world living under dictatorship that it is too late to become a democracy and too late to secure their natural rights to life and property, and that they will need to live under the terror of dictatorship and poverty for the rest of humankind's existence, all because "America is bad"?
    No the US offer is so dismal the Cubans accept a rotten communist dictatorship in preference. Improve the offer.

    "America" is not "bad". The US is the Superpower, and has always acted in a high handed way in the Western Hemisphere. As I say this is to be expected, and no one doubts the US earned its position as Superpower with strength and some skill. As Powers go they are definitely not the worst: the UK has some fair crimes against humanity in the books and I don't think they were the worst either.

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    I question how terrible and "savage" America's "economic punishment" would be.
    "Would be"? The US sanctions medicine and food right now: cf the Saudi massacres (is it a genocide? certainly religiously motivated destruction of entire cultural groups) in Yemen continues almost uniterrupted (except by Saudi incompetence). Promises of democratisation can't be taken seriously given they just handed Afghanistan back to the Taliban, and numerous dictators in Latin America have enjoyed US support.

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    Would it be any worse than the world of deprivation, poverty, and shortage which the Cuban people have lived under thanks to the communist command economy?
    Apparently most Cubans think so. I have to say the US has done a lot to excuse the wretched Communist regime by playing the comic book villain ("poisoned cigars! devilishly delightful Seymour!"). If the US sent free medicine that worked instead of clumsy booby traps they might show up the Dictators as incompetent but instead they give ready made excuses.

    Improve the offer.
    Last edited by Cyclops; July 22, 2021 at 06:00 PM.
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  9. #109

    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops
    Apparently most Cubans think so. I have to say the US has done a lot to excuse the wretched Communist regime by playing the comic book villain ("poisoned cigars! devilishly delightful Seymour!"). If the US sent free medicine that worked instead of clumsy booby traps they might show up the Dictators as incompetent but instead they give ready made excuses.

    Improve the offer.
    It’s pretty hilarious to suggest a clear majority of the Cuban people support the dictatorship given the government shut off the internet so people can’t see the jackbooted crackdown and mass arrests. No, the Batista regime from 70 years ago is not relevant, or the US wouldn’t have a rationale for levying more sanctions as we speak on the regime, not less, and under a lib left administration. Tankies gonna tank I guess.

    The usual cope that places all the blame on the US for causing Cuba’s problems with capitalism, as well as the blame for not toppling the regime with some magic concoction of capitalist wealth infusion, is perennially bizarre. It’s a type of lunacy only afforded to comparatively wealthy western observers who consider self loathing and incoherent contradictions a mark of intellectual prowess. The USG is under no obligation, moral or otherwise, to entertain these fantasies, nor should it. The sanctions on Cuba remain in place, and the regime keeps giving cause to add more. The regime is unlikely to die for the foreseeable future. If it ever does, you can bet there will always be hordes of leftist contrarians in the US and Europe ready to blame anything bad on the US, while rending their garments about how the Cubans were curing cancer, solving racism and world poverty before the evil capitalists reconquered the land. It’s a sickness that is more likely to doom us in the long term than is any authoritarian enemy across the sea.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; July 22, 2021 at 06:36 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".
    “To live without faith, without a heritage to defend, without battling constantly for truth, is not to live but to ‘get along’; we must never just ‘get along’.” - Pier Giorgio Frassati

  10. #110

    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    This is a fanciful nostalgia that doesn't bear with the facts of reality. The Marshall Plan always had strings attached and was driven by American corporate interests.

    For example, here is the story of Coca-Cola in France; this is on Jstor if any students here have access: https://www.jstor.org/stable/286280. I actually had Dr. Kuisel as a professor and learned this from his class.

    During World War II, American troops introduced Coca-Cola to Europe, where it soon found a market among the Europeans wherever the Americans marched. However, very quickly after the war, its popularity began to concern French winemakers, who believed that American soda pop was going to replace wine as the national drink of France. So the French winemaker guilds and the Communist Party of France began to push to have Coca-Cola banned from France, while groups of angry winemakers began vandalizing stores and warehouses which were selling the soda. The French government thus began to move to ban the drink, which alarmed Coke's executives in the United States. Coca-Cola began lobbying the American government, which then resulted in U.S. diplomats basically telling the French government, "No Coke, no Marshall Plan." The French government, seeing the obvious benefits of the Marshall Plan, chose to keep Coca-Cola in France.

    Yet, the fears of an American corporate takeover of France's beverage culture were completely unfounded. Wine continues to be the national drink of France, and it remains one of France's most influential export products.

    American foreign policy and foreign aid have always been tied to corporate interest, but that doesn't mean it's bad aid and bad policy.
    I think you missed my point.
    US only did MP in 40s, because doing otherwise meant potential defection of its client states to the Soviet side of the Cold War.
    After Cold War was gone, no such motivation exists.
    Any nation that comes under control of US today is plundered and put under control of oppressive regimes that aren't at all better then any of the "rogue states" American "free press" tells us to be afraid of.

  11. #111
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Cuban Protests - Patria y Vida — homeland and life

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Pretty sure that has to do with the support of other foreign powers who want the Socialist farce in Venezuela to continue for their own strategic goals.
    Like who? Cuba was a big supporter but their economy went to so that's stopped. Iran has attempted to help Venezuela but it's been small. Russia is it's biggest supporter and it's definitely not Russia propping up Venezuela.

    I'll remind you the government has the support of the military. That really helps prevent any kind of regime change.


    The way NATO powers intervened in Syria didn't help either.
    NATO missed it's chance in 2013.

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