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Thread: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

  1. #161
    Papay's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    What is going to happen with the evacuations? Kabul is not Saigon that was next to the sea

  2. #162
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    What is going to happen with the evacuations? Kabul is not Saigon that was next to the sea
    They still have an airport

  3. #163

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    We have survey data showing the overwhelming majority of Afghans oppose the Taliban. There's not a whole lot of support for returning to Taliban rule.
    AISS and Asian Foundation are hardly impartial. AISS director is minister in Western proxy government in Kabul, Asia Foundation was literally founded by CIA to push American interests in the region.

  4. #164

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    With security rapidly deteriorating in Afghanistan, the United States is sending in an additional 3,000 troops to help evacuate some personnel from the U.S. Embassy in Kabul, officials said Thursday.

    Pentagon spokesman John Kirby said one Army and two Marine infantry battalions will enter Afghanistan within the next two days to assist at the Kabul airport with the partial embassy evacuation.

    https://apnews.com/article/afghanist...1e279e99c3dabf
    >Be the Biden Admin
    >Withdraw 2500 troops on an international non combat mission cos “muh forever war”
    >Total chaos ensues
    >Send in 3000 troops to help

    Peak clown world.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; August 12, 2021 at 05:19 PM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  5. #165
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Peak clown world.
    For a government "Wanting to pull out in a way that doesn't look like the withdrawal from Vietnam" they're doing an amazing job at making it look like the "withdrawal from Vietnam". Maybe they should call this phase "Operation Recurrent Wind"

    2 weeks ago defence analysts with close connections to the White House were suggesting that the Taliban might try to overrun a large city and withdraw as a show of force... but it seems more likely that we're in a situation where the Afghan defence forces feel abandoned and discarded, and that they're increasingly deciding not to be the Afghan Defence forces in a lot of cases - and either go home, or change hats and become Taliban. And there are simply not enough of the 'special' ones to cover the drop of. I don't know why any analysts would assume this would have been any different.

    This is like a textbook lesson in morale and how the loss of it becomes a cascading problem that is nigh on impossible to solve. Much like the Islamic State's invasion of Iraq, the Taliban aren't actually doing a lot of fighting - No force can fight a full campaign this fast with adequate resistance. They show up where the special forces aren't, and fire a few guns off in the air. The panic does the rest*

    *simplification for effect.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  6. #166

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    For a government "Wanting to pull out in a way that doesn't look like the withdrawal from Vietnam" they're doing an amazing job at making it look like the "withdrawal from Vietnam". Maybe they should call this phase "Operation Recurrent Wind"

    2 weeks ago defence analysts with close connections to the White House were suggesting that the Taliban might try to overrun a large city and withdraw as a show of force... but it seems more likely that we're in a situation where the Afghan defence forces feel abandoned and discarded, and that they're increasingly deciding not to be the Afghan Defence forces in a lot of cases - and either go home, or change hats and become Taliban. And there are simply not enough of the 'special' ones to cover the drop of. I don't know why any analysts would assume this would have been any different.

    This is like a textbook lesson in morale and how the loss of it becomes a cascading problem that is nigh on impossible to solve. Much like the Islamic State's invasion of Iraq, the Taliban aren't actually doing a lot of fighting - No force can fight a full campaign this fast with adequate resistance. They show up where the special forces aren't, and fire a few guns off in the air. The panic does the rest*

    *simplification for effect.
    Pretty amazing what an international coalition of a few thousand troops and an air base were able to hold together, until Trump/Biden sabotaged it for a bullet point on a campaign platform.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  7. #167
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    We all know what they say about land wars in Asia. Are people arguing for the US to remains serious? I think its a cynical ploy to make the other party look bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    If the war in Afghanistan has accomplished nothing, then why are Afghans so afraid of going back to Taliban rule?
    I mean that's obviously a rhetorical question, you're a much smarter poster than a lot of the simpbots defending this corrupt occupation.

    The war achieved plenty. Haliburton got rich, it served to prove the Bush administration was attacking terrorists and gave some moral cover for the utterly corrupt and kleptocratic Iraq adventure. Was it Mohammed Karzai who stole a billion dollars to US gave to his regime? Or his brother? Big win for nation building there.

    A lot of Afghans died, some US and allied forces died and got PTSD (we had to shut down a third of the Australian SAS because they were blooding patrol members by shooting disabled people and then drinking out of their prosthetic limbs). Score 1 George Bush, mission accomplished.

    US and allied forces and other services did try in good faith to deliver programs to assist Afghanistan establish a more peaceful existence but leadership did not deliver the resourcing or direction for that to succeed. I think in part that was because no polity on earth has those resources or political capital.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    Clearly they think there's something worth preserving about the current order. But what do they know, they only live there.
    I doubt you really believe Afghans are fighting for a US puppet state thats had its life support pulled. You know very well the Northern Alliance were fighting the Taliban before the US rolled in. The Taliban itself opposed US occupation for almost two decades withno chance of military victory.

    Despite its ethnic and religious diversity Afghans do share a willingness to fight anyone anywhere. The fact they are fighting now surprises no one.

    Its a fun game to play "pin the blame on the guy with Alzheimer's" but the US mission was never going to succeed. Bush was too morally weak to pull out, ditto Obama and Trump. Its been left to the human aneurysm because he will likely die in office and the Dems are betting the blame can be flushed along with his body.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  8. #168
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Pretty amazing what an international coalition of a few thousand troops and an air base were able to hold together, until Trump/Biden sabotaged it for a bullet point on a campaign platform.
    Totally. Morale is about perception. The perception that the world believes in your freedom enough to put a small but not insignificant amount of treasure into helping you maintain it is an entirely different prospect to our voters are sick of hearing about you so you're on your own.. from this specific date.

    But much like the Islamic State situation in Iraq, the current situation isn't necessarily a fait accompli. If it can be stabilised, it can probably be turned around. At the moment Taliban have momentum, but if that momentum is halted, it could very well be shown to be overreach. But in his efforts to please voters, Biden keeps on telegraphing the exact thing that will make the situation worse... "We're leaving on this date" "we're coming back, but just to help us leave again" etc.

    I think that if it wasn't for Bush's idiotic Iraq adventure in 2003, we probably wouldn't be in this situation. Afghanistan wouldn't be such a political drain if it was the only place being managed like this over the past 20 years. But hey... neocons will be neocons and Biden will be "pragmatic"

    I'm just not convinced that the cost savings achieved by the world turning it's back on Afghanistan are worth the loss of civil society and what it represents to those in that part of the world who are battling against their own repressive regimes.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  9. #169
    Odenat's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    It seems that Taliban captured Kandahar and Herat this night. In one week, Taliban will be at Kabul. Millions of Afghan civilians are marching towards Turkey and EU. This country was at peace 20 years ago. There were almost no fighting, no drugs, no terrorism. Taliban was not shooting people at the streets. The women of Afghanistan that western media cry for was living in the same conditions as the women of Saudi Arabia. Still, USA attacked although 9/11 is made by Saudi Arabians. Now Taliban turned to real hardline jihadists, they are beheading people if they see he/she is using a smart phone!!

    Do you really think that will end there? Oh, and another news; French army is withdrawing from Sahra leaving the area to jihadists. What happens today at Afghanistan will happen at Mali, Chad and Niger in 6 months. I hope EU is ready to host another 5 millions refugees next year.

  10. #170
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Odenat View Post
    This country was at peace 20 years ago. There were almost no fighting, no drugs, no terrorism.
    Lol no. Afghanistan hasn't been at peace since 1978. The US entered Afghanistan during the third Afghan civil war.

  11. #171

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    1. Anyone ever find any oil in Afghanistan?

    2. I can't be the only one who's thinking, that the Taliban are in the minority, so in a battle of attrition against the rest of the Afghans, they'd lose.

    3. If you gave a fraction of the resources to the Kurds that was given to the Kabul regimes, there'd be a new Assyria.

    4. If the Taliban are viewed as an existential threat, why isn't everyone capable of firing a gun, armed, and protecting their homes?

    5. While the West might regret surrendering Afghanistan to fanatics, their neighbours will regret it first.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

  12. #172

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Condottiere 40K View Post
    1. Anyone ever find any oil in Afghanistan?

    2. I can't be the only one who's thinking, that the Taliban are in the minority, so in a battle of attrition against the rest of the Afghans, they'd lose.

    3. If you gave a fraction of the resources to the Kurds that was given to the Kabul regimes, there'd be a new Assyria.

    4. If the Taliban are viewed as an existential threat, why isn't everyone capable of firing a gun, armed, and protecting their homes?

    5. While the West might regret surrendering Afghanistan to fanatics, their neighbours will regret it first.
    1. Its more about minerals (which are too expensive to mine) and opium.
    2. You actually can, since Taliban is taking city after city which would be impossible without grassroots support.
    3. And just like with Kabul regimes, it would be just an avenue for enrichment for both Western and local corrupt officials.
    4. Because its the only side that can provide resemblance of order and stability, which is what locals ultimately want.
    5. West funded those fanatics in the first place, so perhaps the moral of the story is that trusting US is stupid.

  13. #173

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus
    But much like the Islamic State situation in Iraq, the current situation isn't necessarily a fait accompli. If it can be stabilised, it can probably be turned around. At the moment Taliban have momentum, but if that momentum is halted, it could very well be shown to be overreach. But in his efforts to please voters, Biden keeps on telegraphing the exact thing that will make the situation worse... "We're leaving on this date" "we're coming back, but just to help us leave again" etc.
    Well that’s what created this mess. The only thing lessening Biden’s culpability here is that Trump’s brain dead surrender to the Taliban forced his hand to an extent. Even so, the Taliban offensive gave ample grounds to indefinitely suspend the agreement until the belligerents halted their war and committed to the peace process with Kabul. Inevitably, that’s what’s happened anyway with this redeployment, but only after years of careful work that has duct taped together a government evaporated on the heels of retreating NATO troops. The fallout here isn’t just the mass slaughter or the women and children being enslaved en masse. The US looks worse than ever, just as Biden reportedly plans to repeat the same fiasco in Iraq. Worse, rather than working as part of a coalition, we’re completely on our own, with costs and risks expanding accordingly.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  14. #174

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    I think that Biden made up his mind twelve years ago; Trump just made it easier for him to execute the policy.

    Same as with China.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

  15. #175
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    I'm just not convinced that the cost savings achieved by the world turning it's back on Afghanistan are worth the loss of civil society and what it represents to those in that part of the world who are battling against their own repressive regimes.
    So how much longer does the US and friends need to stay? It's been twenty years. Longest war in American history.

    How much longer does the US need to stay to finally win?

  16. #176

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Biden was literally part of warhawk administration that escalated Afghanistan war and supported Islamist insurrections in Libya and Syria.
    US is only withdrawing now because Trump started it and deep state upper crust figured that backtracking on that would be worse then just pulling out.

  17. #177

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Crenshaw on the dangerous stupidity that is the left wing/Trumpist “muh forever war” lie vis a vis Afghanistan.



    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi
    So how much longer does the US and friends need to stay? It's been twenty years. Longest war in American history.

    How much longer does the US need to stay to finally win?
    You’ve already admitted you don’t actually care about costs, got caught lying on more than one point, and your bad faith talking points exemplified by these rhetorical questions you repeat ad nauseam have already been debunked.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  18. #178

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Biden was literally part of warhawk administration that escalated Afghanistan war and supported Islamist insurrections in Libya and Syria.
    US is only withdrawing now because Trump started it and deep state upper crust figured that backtracking on that would be worse then just pulling out.
    Biden was advocating for greater intervention and nation building in Afghanistan long before he joined Pres. O's administration.

    WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Sen. Joseph Biden, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, is expected to propose legislation for a long-term reconstruction and development plan in Central and South Asia following any military campaign against Afghanistan, an aide to the senator told CNN on Wednesday.

    The senator will propose the plan, similar in nature to the Marshall Plan's reconstruction of Europe after World War II, in an effort to create an economic and social climate in which terrorists will not be able to operate, the aide said.


    The aide said the initiative would cover Afghanistan and the Central Asian countries, including Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and Tajikistan, as well as Pakistan.


    https://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS...tan/index.html



  19. #179
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Crenshaw on the dangerous stupidity that is the left wing/Trumpist “muh forever war” lie vis a vis Afghanistan.




    You’ve already admitted you don’t actually care about costs, got caught lying on more than one point, and your bad faith talking points exemplified by these rhetorical questions you repeat ad nauseam have already been debunked.
    Ignoring my points and deflecting isn't debunking my argument. i have mentioned the multi-trillion dollar cost of this war numerous times and the lack of progress to show for it. You simply ignore that since you and I both know you don't have a counter.

    The Afghan Army is barely fighting anymore. Goes to show that after 20 years of training and arming the Afghans that it amounted to absolutely nothing. Just provincial capitals falling. What a ing waste.

  20. #180

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    China reportedly prepares to recognize Taliban if they oust the Afghan government.

    So much for American cope hope for Taliban-China war lol.

    Crenshaw on the dangerous stupidity that is the left wing/Trumpist “muh forever war” lie vis a vis Afghanistan.
    Except that by now everyone knows that 911 has very little connection with either Taliban or Iraq, anyone remembers "new pearl harbor needed for another big war" report? Pepperidge farm remembers.
    Crenshaw is just another chickenhawk RINO and isn't better then a Democrat.

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