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Thread: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

  1. #21
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    as were the Anglo Americans in central Asia;
    Err plans (maximum ambitions of some) of an administration that failed to hold power in a Democracy. So seeing as Clack is democrat how is a defeat if Biden rolls back ambitions that if put on the table might have killed the authorization for war in A-stan back in the day.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  2. #22

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Err plans (maximum ambitions of some) of an administration that failed to hold power in a Democracy. So seeing as Clack is democrat how is a defeat if Biden rolls back ambitions that if put on the table might have killed the authorization for war in A-stan back in the day.
    Republican and Democrat are simply the same ruling class with different flags; too bad the con game of good cop bad cop no longer applies in geopolitics.
    A-stan is not known as the graveyard of empires for nothing:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Also, the taliban have been working with China quite comprehensively i must say:





    kinda ironic if the taliban waxes the CIA backed Islamic State and ETIM in A-stan.

  3. #23
    EmperorBatman999's Avatar I say, what, what?
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    Republican and Democrat are simply the same ruling class with different flags; too bad the con game of good cop bad cop no longer applies in geopolitics.
    A-stan is not known as the graveyard of empires for nothing:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Also, the taliban have been working with China quite comprehensively i must say:





    kinda ironic if the taliban waxes the CIA backed Islamic State and ETIM in A-stan.
    And this completely won't backfire on them like the last time a major world leader sat down with Afghan religious fundamentalist "freedom fighters!"


  4. #24

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    And this completely won't backfire on them like the last time a major world leader sat down with Afghan religious fundamentalist "freedom fighters!"
    Poor analogy; anglo america persisted in being in central asia because of Brzezinsk and his 'grand chessboard' plan; China 's only presence in central asia is commercial, related to BRI, which the afghans will support because it's more money in their pocket.

    To say nothing of the trillions in mineral resources which will power China's rare earths monopoly.
    https://www.news.com.au/technology/i...ada4112b06f768

    Meanwhile, the big man himself, President Joe biden is going to have to stand before the american ppl and explain the loss of Afghanistan:
    Biden to speak on Afghanistan amid Taliban gaining territory
    EDIT:

    Somewhat related, but US forces are coming under sustained attack in Iraq as well; gradually the rollback of US presence in the middle east/central asia is starting to crescendo.
    https://www.france24.com/en/middle-e...rocket-attacks

    BREAKING: US CASUALTIES FROM IRAQI ATTACKS


    This is like that scene in Clear & Present Danger where the american troops are getting ambushed and turned into hamburger whilst the US Elites are enjoying life in Washington.
    Last edited by Exarch; July 08, 2021 at 07:39 AM.

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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    The Afghans are a fiercely independent people, as the Soviets and the US learned. Furthermore, the Taliban is not motivated by money, only the idea of an independent, Islamic state in the Hindu Kush.

    China can try building the BRI through Afghanistan, but I don’t know who would be willing to drive through an active war zone. Remember that the Taliban still has many opponents across the country who won’t make a Tali victory easy. All it’ll take is one too many ambushed trucks on the Afghan stretch of the BRI and China will have to intervene militarily to signal their new Silk Road is safe to use.
    Last edited by EmperorBatman999; July 08, 2021 at 09:14 AM.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Meanwhile, the big man himself, President Joe biden is going to have to stand before the american ppl and explain the loss of Afghanistan
    Does he? Previous admin made the pull out deal. He never campaigned on staying forever... Even GBjr never called a stan US Territory so again what are we loosing? Oh Yes a money and blood pit.

    This is like that scene in Clear & Present Danger where the american troops are getting ambushed and turned into hamburger whilst the US Elites are enjoying life in Washington.
    Bit of a hysterical overstatement

    'causing minor injuries to two personnel' (via your link)

    What happens in your house when you get a paper cut do you have somebody drive you to the emergency room?

    -----


    China can try building the BRI through Afghanistan, but I don’t know who would be willing to drive through an active war zone. Remember that the Taliban still has many opponents across the country who won’t make a Tali victory easy. All it’ll take is one too many ambushed trucks on the Afghan stretch of the BRI and China will have to intervene militarily to signal their new Silk Road is safe to use.
    I can't but suspect India will have a deep vested interest in making if fail and likely fund anyone and everyone who does not like the ideal.
    Last edited by conon394; July 08, 2021 at 03:08 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  7. #27

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Does he? Previous admin made the pull out deal. He never campaigned on staying forever... Even GBjr never called a stan US Territory so again what are we loosing? Oh Yes a money and blood pit.
    He was part of the Obama administration wasn't he? Lets not conveniently forget Biden has being part of the system for decades.

  8. #28

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    The Afghans are a fiercely independent people, as the Soviets and the US learned. Furthermore, the Taliban is not motivated by money, only the idea of an independent, Islamic state in the Hindu Kush.

    China can try building the BRI through Afghanistan, but I don’t know who would be willing to drive through an active war zone. Remember that the Taliban still has many opponents across the country who won’t make a Tali victory easy. All it’ll take is one too many ambushed trucks on the Afghan stretch of the BRI and China will have to intervene militarily to signal their new Silk Road is safe to use.
    The Taliban are actually going to be protecting the pipelines, roads, highways, infrastructure that will run from Pakistan to Xinjiang, China; even an independent, islamic state in the Hindu Kush is going to need $$$ and Chinese expertise to make it happen.
    China a ‘welcome friend’ for reconstruction in Afghanistan: Taliban spokesman







    • Taliban spokesman Suhail Shaheen says the group welcomes Chinese investments in reconstruction and would guarantee the safety of investors and workers
    • The US withdrawal from Afghanistan has emboldened the Taliban and there are growing concerns about the Kabul government’s ability to stay in power






    Source: https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/polit...nistan-taliban

    Even better is that the Taliban are no longer accepting uighurs in their ranks. Sounds like the islamic world is A-OK with China; pity they don't have the same attitude towards white anglo americans.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post

    I can't but suspect India will have a deep vested interest in making if fail and likely fund anyone and everyone who does not like the ideal.
    lol and americans can wish cast that china would descend into civil war and not make them feel insecure but that aint gonna happen no matter how much americans practice "The Secret".

    Indians can wish all they want; chances are high actually that the taliban will be training Kashmiris who will then be causing the Indians all sorts of grief, especially since india only has an ally in the now toppling afghan government and none in the Pakistan backed taliban.

    No matter which way you slice it, India's in for a world of hurt.
    Last edited by Exarch; July 08, 2021 at 08:12 PM.

  9. #29
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Indians can wish all they want; chances are high actually that the taliban will be training Kashmiris who will then be causing the Indians all sorts of grief, especially since india only has an ally in the now toppling afghan government and none in the Pakistan backed taliban.

    No matter which way you slice it, India's in for a world of hurt.
    You know where over confidence gets you.

    Even better is that the Taliban are no longer accepting uighurs in their ranks. Sounds like the islamic world is A-OK with China

    On Latter The Talban + Islamic world . Intresting maths.

    On Former you do realize the if true than you some serious cognitive dissonance you maintain in your head. You gloat about let how does it go Anglo White USA five eyes alliances but you are now supporting a racist based alliance?
    Last edited by conon394; July 08, 2021 at 10:03 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    You know where over confidence gets you.




    On Latter The Talban + Islamic world . Intresting maths.

    On Former you do realize the if true than you some serious cognitive dissonance you maintain in your head. You gloat about let how does it go Anglo White USA five eyes alliances but you are now supporting a racist based alliance?
    The Taliban’s hold over Afghanistan still is far from guaranteed. The legitimate government still holds Kabul, and there are still pro-US groups across the country which have every reason to keep fighting the Taliban tooth-and-nail, with or without the ADF. They know the stakes of defeat, and the TB could find themselves embroiled in a long guerrilla civil war, especially if India and NATO continue supporting anti-TB groups covertly. As such, the TB is not the legitimate government and can’t make deals with China as if they were the Afghan government.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; July 10, 2021 at 06:33 AM. Reason: Personal.

  11. #31

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    You know where over confidence gets you.
    Speak for yourself, the United States is currently in the decrepit and weakened state that it's in right now because it believed it could do whatever it wanted...until reality taught white americans a lesson.

    Bigger mystery to me is why biden, after having being thoroughly humiliated in A-stan, now believes he's got what it takes to start a fight with Russia.


    On Latter The Talban + Islamic world . Intresting maths.

    On Former you do realize the if true than you some serious cognitive dissonance you maintain in your head. You gloat about let how does it go Anglo White USA five eyes alliances but you are now supporting a racist based alliance?
    Where did i say i support a race based alliance? I've consistently been disdainful of race based alliance like that of the Five Eyes, especially when it comes to Five Eyes. A bunch of fail sons who betrayed the memories of their forefathers by turning to nazism and apartheid ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    If there is one thing I’ve learned from these debates, it’s that pro-China agitators are fluent in hypocrisy and thrive on unwarranted bravado.

    The Taliban’s hold over Afghanistan still is far from guaranteed. The legitimate government still holds Kabul, and there are still pro-US groups across the country which have every reason to keep fighting the Taliban tooth-and-nail, with or without the ADF. They know the stakes of defeat, and the TB could find themselves embroiled in a long guerrilla civil war, especially if India and NATO continue supporting anti-TB groups covertly. As such, the TB is not the legitimate government and can’t make deals with China as if they were the Afghan government.
    So what?
    What matters is that the Taliban are going to come to power sooner or later, which means they're the ones to talk and do business with; you don't like it? Tough luck, the Anglos and their vassals have had 2 decades to do something about it and they've done SFA.



    What biden should be doing is telling the parents or the orphans whose family members died in A-stan, ask them what their loved ones died for? Maybe tell them their loved ones died so that Bzrzinski and his mates could play Risk! IRL.

  12. #32
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Bigger mystery to me is why biden, after having being thoroughly humiliated in A-stan
    Well now that is interesting thing about democracy and muti party state you are not beholden or responsible for the decisions of 3 previous presidents. If Biden decides to adhere to the more or less the outline of the agreements Trump made not sure I see humiliation.

    Where did i say i support a race based alliance? I've consistently been disdainful of race based alliance like that of the Five Eyes, especially when it comes to Five Eyes. A bunch of fail sons who betrayed the memories of their forefathers by turning to nazism and apartheid ideology.
    Funny I believe you were just going on about the Taliban dropping Uyghurs as recruits to potentially please China.
    Last edited by conon394; July 09, 2021 at 05:42 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  13. #33
    EmperorBatman999's Avatar I say, what, what?
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post

    Funny I believe you were just going on about the Taliban dropping Uyghurs as recruits to potentially please China.
    Incidentally, Exarch’s reference about the Uyghur is an admission of the genocide in Xinjiang.

  14. #34

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Well now that is interesting thing about democracy and muti party state you are not beholden or responsible for the decisions of 3 previous presidents. If Biden decides to adhere to the more or less the outline of the agreements Trump made not sure I see humiliation.
    It is a humiliation when A-stan had a central role in US geostrategy in "Le Grande Chessboard"; anglo americans being forced to flee without preserving their honour with at least a token fight should be correctly viewed as a humiliating retreat, but i do note it is in the anglo american pattern to paint black as white:




    What is it that the defeated have to endure when their bases and camps are looted by the victors? A humiliation defeat.



    Funny I believe you were just going on about the Taliban dropping Uyghurs as recruits to potentially please China.
    Yes but what's that got to do with the Five Eyes as a racial collective?

    The Taliban are part of the islamic world, and the islamic world by extension have collectively endorsed China's policies in Xinjiang; the only claims of genocide come from white nations who want to attack China and who themselves are complicit in murdering muslims. Not exactly stellar characters of confidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    Incidentally, Exarch’s reference about the Uyghur is an admission of the genocide in Xinjiang.
    lolwhut? How so?

    Are europeans who join ISIS also an admission of genocide in western capitols?

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    EmperorBatman999's Avatar I say, what, what?
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    lolwhut? How so?

    Are europeans who join ISIS also an admission of genocide in western capitols?
    First, the example makes no sense.

    To elaborate on my point: You admit that the Uyghurs are a targeted group that China doesn’t like, and that the Taliban has thus honed in on that by banning people from that group from joining their organization. The Taliban does this as a gesture of a good will towards China by validating and joining in on China’s exclusionary policies.
    Last edited by EmperorBatman999; July 10, 2021 at 09:56 AM.

  16. #36

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    First, the example makes no sense.

    To elaborate on my point: You admit that the Uyghurs are a targeted group that China doesn’t like, and that the Taliban has thus honed in on that by banning people from that group from joining their organization. The Taliban does this as a gesture of a good will towards China by validating and joining in on China’s exclusionary policies.
    whatever you say, pal.

    Anyway, it's clear that the image consecrated in history of anglo americans abandoning their so called allies isn't just an echo of Saigon '75, but is going to have ramifications for other nations who are allies of the US.

    Specifically, the non white allies in Asia who are supposed to be allied to the US; doesn't really inspire much confidence in Asians to see white americans fleeing before a ragtag militia force who fought anglo america with its tanks and war crimes to a standstill. However, historically speaking the United States as a nation has always been a poor fighting force.

  17. #37
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    That’s not an adequate response. Why are the Taliban excluding the Uyghurs?

    I think everybody knows how much of a cockroach Afghanistan is and that the country can’t be unified or humbled, and those “non-white” allies also chose to commit troops to Afghan and then chose to join the pull-out. Furthermore, America is honoring both domestic and international pressure to pull out, so I don’t think leaving Afghanistan is hurting the US reputation.

    Poor record? Come on, so far in history, practically no organized military has managed to successfully crush an insurgency. But then again, maybe you would’ve preferred for the US to stay so that you could continue watching the US bleed for the benefit of America’s rivals.
    Last edited by EmperorBatman999; July 10, 2021 at 10:15 AM.

  18. #38
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    The withdrawal is not the cause of the defeat, but its consequence. NATO and the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, despite their overwhelming resources, failed to defeat the Taliban. The continuation of the current situation is simply not cost-effective and there's no alternative solution. It's not a coincidence that leaving Afghanistan has found bipartisan support in the US. The pace of the withdrawal matters little, in the long term. Afghanistan has minimal geostrategic value, in spite of its massive deposits in rare earth materials. Mining costs are prohibitingly high, because Afghanistan lacks any industrial infrastructure and, even more importantly, an advanced railway network. The rare earth minerals are spread throughout the country and building and maintaining the railway system will be extremely difficult, given the mountainous topography, the endemic corruption and the political fragmentation of Afghanistan.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Even a goat farm, designed for cashmere exports failed to generate any substantial profits, so the prospects of neodynium and the rest of fancy named elements are pretty bleak.

    Consequently, there's no reason to assume that China or Iran will replace the US, as there isn't even a motivation to do so, unless the value of rare earth minerals increases exponentially and the transportation issue is magically solved. We shouldn't also overestimate the hostility between the Taliban and the US. The root of the friction was al-Qaeda, the one responsible for overseas terrorist attacks, not the Taliban, whose ambitions were limited to Afghanistan and, to a certain extent, Pakistan. Washington could tolerate a restored Emirate, which will most probably try to balance between the US and its three strongest neighbors, Pakistan, Iran and China, just like it happened during the '90s.
    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    The Afghans are a fiercely independent people, as the Soviets and the US learned. Furthermore, the Taliban is not motivated by money, only the idea of an independent, Islamic state in the Hindu Kush.
    The fierce independence spirit of Afghanistan It started with the 2002 invasion, which sparked a huge bibliography with fragile comparisons between Alexander and Bush, although Bactrians had actually remained loyal; it was Sogdia that revolted, but the country is actually situated in the north, in approximately modern Uzbekistan. With the American and Soviet interventions, the conflict was basically a civil war. The first clashes began, when the modernisation and agrarian reforms of the Democratic Republic enroached the interests of the religious and tribal establishment of the country, as well as the religious sensitivities of the rural population. The situation deteriorated further with foreign involvement and mismanagement from the government authorities. Since when Najibullah ditched socialism, the conflict has become more tribal than ideological. The Democratic Republic actually managed to crush the Mujahideen after the Soviets fled, in the battle of Jalalabad, but it disintegrated, once Dostum, a former army officer and then the most prominent warlord of the Uzbek community defected.

    The emergence of the Taliban was the result of the locals getting fed up with the tribal strife. The strength of the Taliban lies in the weakness of the Kabul government: Corruption, nepotism, arbitrary violence and even sexual abuse. The impopularity of the occupation forces, because incidents ranging from the humiliation of regular frisking to the Kandahar and "Kill Team" massacres or wedding bombings, also contributes to the deteriorating situation, but it's a relatively marginal factor. That's why conflict persists, even when foreign forces pull out. The future of Afghanistan is probably that of a fragmented country, with the majority of the countryside and a few urban centers controlled by the Taliban and the rest by tribal alliances, mainly composed of ethnic and religious minorities with low-level foreign interference. Sometimes, of course, even inter-communal strife can't be avoided...

  19. #39

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    That’s not an adequate response. Why are the Taliban excluding the Uyghurs?

    I think everybody knows how much of a cockroach Afghanistan is and that the country can’t be unified or humbled, and those “non-white” allies also chose to commit troops to Afghan and then chose to join the pull-out. Furthermore, America is honoring both domestic and international pressure to pull out, so I don’t think leaving Afghanistan is hurting the US reputation.

    Poor record? Come on, so far in history, practically no organized military has managed to successfully crush an insurgency. But then again, maybe you would’ve preferred for the US to stay so that you could continue watching the US bleed for the benefit of America’s rivals.
    The PRC is the result of a successful insurgency; China knows how to do insurgency, Mao even wrote a little red book on it which West Point grads have to read- China even knows how to destroy an insurgency eg ETIM in xinjiang.

    I actually would have preferred no americans be killed or continue to be killed because some rich fat white american elite can feel like he's playing julius caesar

  20. #40
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Consequently, there's no reason to assume that China or Iran will replace the US, as there isn't even a motivation to do so, unless the value of rare earth minerals increases exponentially and the transportation issue is magically solved. We shouldn't also overestimate the hostility between the Taliban and the US. The root of the friction was al-Qaeda, the one responsible for overseas terrorist attacks, not the Taliban, whose ambitions were limited to Afghanistan and, to a certain extent, Pakistan. Washington could tolerate a restored Emirate, which will most probably try to balance between the US and its three strongest neighbors, Pakistan, Iran and China, just like it happened during the '90s.
    And India. To the extent the Pakistan security forces choose again to the A-stan a plausible deniability base to fund attacks on India I assume India will have words in one way or another.

    I hang the failure on GBjr. Either the US needed to plan for some nation building venture at the outset and not get distracted by Iraq and not rely on the ex warlords as it did at first. Or it should have launched a smash affair as vengeance that cared not what happened after. That is kill as much AQ as you can and make the Taliban pay for sheltering them. Than go home. Honestly would not have done the NATO thing other allies in that case if I calling the shots.
    Last edited by conon394; July 10, 2021 at 10:34 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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