Last edited by Aikanár; September 23, 2021 at 03:39 AM. Reason: continuity
Jatte lambastes Calico Rat
This is not just defeat of US, in a way, this a symbolic defeat of liberalism and progressivism by turboreactionary theocracy. As Robert E. Howard wrote in his perennially wise quote: "Barbarism always triumphs". And triumph it did. I won't doubt that retreat of "forces of progress" will continue beyond the Middle East and through the West itself, especially in light of public uprisings sparking all over Europe and West in general, especially in Central Europe, where population already had intimate familiarity with how "progressive" regimes work as part of Warsaw Pact during Cold War.
Gentlemen,
please bear in mind that personal references are off-topic outside the administrative forums. Also, they are not allowed according to the D&D forum rules. Please also refrain from insults. You definitely can do better than hammer away at eachothers personalities: smash your opponents arguments into the dust.
Thank-you for your attention.
Thread re-opened.
In some good news Mullah Nooruddin Turabi formerly justice minister and head of the Ministry of Propagation of Virtue and Prevention of Vice. now in the cabinet and in charge of prisons, has indicated the judiciary will be inclusive "judges — including women — would adjudicate cases", unlike in the former rule of the Taliban where-in "the judiciary was weighted in favor of Islamic clerics".
I wonder what sorts of cases women will be allowed to adjudicate, and if they will be permitted to issue hadd punishments.
"Turabi told The Associated Press, speaking in Kabul. “No one will tell us what our laws should be. We will follow Islam and we will make our laws on the Quran.”"
"...the foundation of Afghanistan’s laws will be the Quran. He said the same punishments would be revived."“Cutting off of hands is very necessary for security,” he said, saying it had a deterrent effect. He said the Cabinet was studying whether to do punishments in public and will “develop a policy.”
As a concession to the modern world:
"“We are changed from the past,” he said. He said now the Taliban would allow television, mobile phones, photos and video “because this is the necessity of the people, and we are serious about it.” He suggested that the Taliban saw the media as a way to spread their message. “Now we know instead of reaching just hundreds, we can reach millions,” he said. He added that if punishments are made public, then people may be allowed to video or take photos to spread the deterrent effect."
https://news.yahoo.com/taliban-offic...154957376.html
Last edited by Infidel144; September 24, 2021 at 06:10 AM.
"Stephanopoulos asked Biden point blank: “So no one told — your military advisers did not tell you, "No, we should just keep 2,500 troops. It's been a stable situation for the last several years. We can do that. We can continue to do that"?
Biden answered: “No. No one said that to me that I can recall.”"
"Top generals told lawmakers under oath on Tuesday that they advised President Joe Biden early this year to keep several thousand troops in Afghanistan — directly contradicting the president’s comments in August that no one warned him not to withdraw troops from the country."
"Gen. Kenneth "Frank" McKenzie, the commander of U.S. Central Command, told the Senate Armed Services in a hearing Tuesday that he recommended maintaining a small force of 2,500 troops in Afghanistan earlier this year."
"McKenzie also acknowledged that he talked to Biden directly about the recommendation by Gen. Scott Miller, the commander of U.S. Forces Afghanistan until July, that the military leave a few thousand troops on the ground, which Miller detailed in closed testimony last week."
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/0...hearing-514491
Last edited by Infidel144; September 28, 2021 at 03:59 PM.
Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII
From the news,
Why? what is he afraid of?but when asked by Alaska Republican Dan Sullivan whether Mr Biden's comments were "a false statement", he refused to give a direct answer.
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But why keep that magic number of 2,500 troops in Kabul? Why not 5,000? or more, ad eternum? keeping troops in Kabul would be a breach of the agreement and would inevitably lead to an escalation of the conflict.
Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
Charles Péguy
Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
Thomas Piketty
This is false. A) Deploying troops to Afghanistan would not violate the agreement since under the latter, US withdrawal was conditional on terms the Taliban did not fulfill, and B) Biden deployed 5-7000 troops to Kabul in a panic to support his botched withdrawal. He had originally planned to leave several hundred troops in the country to guard US assets like the embassy.Originally Posted by Ludicus
Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII
Enlighten me.The agreement between the Trump administration and the Taliban was made on Feb. 29, 2020, according to documentation on the Department of State. Transcription, please.
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In any case, your plan was to stay there forever.Everything else is an excuse for not leaving Afghanistan.
Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
Charles Péguy
Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
Thomas Piketty
It’s fact cited exhaustively up this point.
If you’ve already reviewed the “documentation on the Department of State,” I don’t know why you’d need me to provide them for you.But Biden can go only so far in claiming the agreement boxed him in. It had an escape clause: The U.S. could have withdrawn from the accord if Afghan peace talks failed. They did, but Biden chose to stay in it, although he delayed the complete pullout from May to September.
https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden...49154604aa11be
Go ahead and quote me saying that then. I’ll continue to refer to the multiple cabinet members and advisers Biden disregarded in order to surrender to the Taliban.In any case, your plan was to stay there forever.Everything else is an excuse for not leaving Afghanistan.
Top generals told lawmakers under oath on Tuesday that they advised President Joe Biden early this year to keep several thousand troops in Afghanistan — directly contradicting the president’s comments in August that no one warned him not to withdraw troops from the country.
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/0...hearing-514491"His new recommendation was to extend the mission with US troops for a while to see if it could yield a political settlement. Buy time for negotiations," Woodward and Costa write.
According to CNN, Blinken told Biden on a phone call that he was hearing from other NATO ministers in "quadraphonic sound" that the U.S. should gain concrete steps toward a political settlement. Around the same time, Austin reportedly came up with a proposal for a "gated" withdrawal in three or four stages that would also allow for negotiations.
https://thehill.com/homenews/media/5...-woodward-bookBoth the Trump and Biden administrations were warned by US intelligence that the Afghan army’s resistance to the Taliban could collapse “within days” after an over-hasty withdrawal, according to a former CIA counter-terrorism chief.
The former counter-terrorism chief said that both Donald Trump and Biden had made decisions to leave for political and ideological reasons and were ultimately impervious to intelligence briefings on possible outcomes.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...liban-takeover
Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII
What are the exact "terms the Taliban did not fulfill"? I'm afraid you haven't read it.
Agreement-For-Bringing-Peace-to-Afghanistan-02.29.20.pdf
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On a side note-this caught my attention,
When did this happen? on march 10. It's worth remembering, Lawfare BlogPART THREE 1. The United States will request the recognition and endorsement of the United Nations Security Council for this agreement.
Comparing the U.S.-Taliban Peace Deal and the U.S.-Afghanistan Joint Statement,
Perhaps the most obvious and consequential aspect of both the peace agreement and the joint declaration is that each document is missing a critical signatory: The internationally recognized and NATO-backed Afghan government is not a party to the Taliban-U.S. peace agreement, and the Taliban is absent from the U.S.-Afghan joint declaration.
Last edited by Ludicus; September 29, 2021 at 11:44 AM.
Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
Charles Péguy
Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
Thomas Piketty
Then why post the link that disproves your claim? The wall to wall coverage of the Taliban breaking the agreement and thereby relieving Biden of the obligation to withdraw is all a lie? Biden’s State Department lied when they said the Taliban violated the agreement?Originally Posted by Ludicus
The Taliban did not seek nor establish a permanent and comprehensive ceasefire, nor did it engage in peaceful negotiations with the Afghan government to come to a political settlement. The Taliban militarily conquered Afghanistan in violation of the agreement. Biden’s own State Department acknowledged this:A comprehensive peace agreement is made of four parts:
A permanent and comprehensive ceasefire will be an item on the agenda of the intra-Afghan dialogue and negotiations. The participants of intra-Afghan negotiations will discuss the date and modalities of a permanent and comprehensive ceasefire, including joint implementation mechanisms, which will be announced along with the completion and agreement over the future political roadmap of Afghanistan.
Speaking at a briefing, Price said the Taliban are violating "the letter and the spirit" of the February 2020 U.S.-Taliban deal for a withdrawal of all American troops from the United States' longest war.
The Taliban committed to intra-Afghan talks on a peace accord that lead to a "permanent and comprehensive ceasefire," Price said. "All indications at least suggest the Taliban are instead pursuing a battlefield victory."
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-p...nt-2021-08-11/
Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII
Don't answer a question with a question. I'm waiting for a quote.
Agreement-For-Bringing-Peace-to-Afghanistan-02.29.20.pdf
Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
Charles Péguy
Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
Thomas Piketty
Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII
Most likely. Biden administration's primary goal was to collapse Trump's plan and then steal credit for withdrawal, they just underestimated the world of they entered by doing that.Biden’s State Department lied when they said the Taliban violated the agreement?
You missed the relevant part. It says,
“A permanent and comprehensive ceasefire will be an item on the agenda of the intra-Afghan dialogue and negotiations”. An item on the agenda, an effort to reach a compromise. The publicly released agreement does not contain any provision for the Taliban to reduce to reduce attacks against Afghan government forces
On a side note, the annexes to the agreement that outline implementation of the deal are classified. U.S. Looks to Build on Secret Portions of Taliban Deal
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Reality check: Ghani refused the transfer of power to an interim government acceptable to all. US Warns Kabul It May Withdraw All Forces By May 1 If Peace Talks Do Not Progress (March 2021)
Ghani,Blinken in his letter bluntly warned Ghani (1)."..."I am making this clear to you," Blinken wrote, "so that you understand the urgency of my tone."
The Afghan president again reiterated his opposition to a transitional government
Divisions within the Kabul government have prevented a coherent policy toward the Taliban.The transfer of power through elections is a non-negotiable principle for us
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To sum up,the Ghani refused to give up the war with the Taliban, refused a transitional government, and the American warmongers fervently applauded; “let’s stay here forever”. But when confronted with reality, Ghani fled the country. Ghani and his army could only exist as long as the US remained in Afghanistan.
(1) TRT calls it a "neocolonial letter". No, it’s not. The tone is authoritative but it offers generous and wise counsel.
Just out of curiosity, what do you have to say about the fact that NATO-backed Afghan government is not a party to the Taliban-U.S. peace agreement- and the Taliban is absent from the U.S.-Afghan joint declaration?Agreement-For-Bringing-Peace-to-Afghanistan-02.29.20.pdf
The allies are there to invade, but when preparing a withdrawal they are completely ignored.It's nothing new.
Last edited by Ludicus; September 29, 2021 at 04:28 PM.
Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
Charles Péguy
Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
Thomas Piketty
There’s no sense in lying about something so transparent, just because of an ignorance of basic facts and a disgraceful determination to shill for the Taliban. Launching a nationwide offensive to militarily conquer the country means a violation of the agreement to pursue “a permanent ceasefire and intra-Afghan negotiations.” This fact is universally acknowledged, as cited.Originally Posted by Ludicus
Another lie. None of your links say the Taliban attempted to make peace with Kabul nor that Ghani refused. It points out, as per your own quote, that Ghani understood that peace talks were dead since the Taliban launched a nationwide offensive instead of pursing “a permanent ceasefire and intra-Afghan negotiations” that Ghani’s government had engaged in since 2018:To sum up,the Ghani refused to give up the war with the Taliban
Afghanistan's Ghani offers talks with Taliban 'without preconditions'
Afghan President Ashraf Ghani offered recognition of the Taliban as a legitimate political group on Wednesday as part of a proposed political process that he said could lead to talks aimed at ending more than 16 years of war.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-a...-idUSKCN1GC0J0You’ve repeatedly asserted your false claim that the Afghan government was illegitimate. If anything you should be happy about the arrangement. It doesn’t matter what I think since I disagreed with surrendering to the Taliban in the first place.Just out of curiosity, what do you have to say about the fact that NATO-backed Afghan government is not a party to the Taliban-U.S. peace agreement- and the Taliban is absent from the U.S.-Afghan joint declaration
Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII
There is no sense in lying about something so opaque.In fact, the annexes to the agreement that outline implementation of the deal are classified.Once again. U.S. Looks to Build on Secret Portions of Taliban Deal N.Y.Times .Again: the publicly released agreement does not contain any provision for the Taliban to reduce to reduce attacks against Afghan government forces,
The US-Taliban Peace Deal: 10 Weeks On - Afghanistan
Maybe it's you who is lying. Ghani refused an interim government. That's exactly what Blinken has said. Blinken in his letter bluntly warned Ghani to accept an interim government,and said Ghani failed to urgently consider proposals on accelerating the peace process.4) Intra-Afghan peace talks: The Taliban, which throughout the negotiating process with the US rejected direct talks with the Afghan government, agreed to start intra-Afghan negotiations on 10 March 2020.1
The publicly released agreement does not contain any provision for the Taliban to reduce attacks against Afghan government forces, and the annexes to the agreement that outline implementation of the deal are classified. However, a spokesman for the US military command in Afghanistan indicated a de facto fifth provision in a recent statement (Military Times, 6 May 2020):
Previous link. And more. At that time, the right wasn't happy, An interim government would bring ruin to Afghanistan - Lowy ...
I'm pretty sure that the Vichy government would agree with you. But in a country under occupation, any national government is illegitimate.In a letter leaked on 7 March, US Secretary of State Antony Blinken delivered a blunt message that urged Afghan President Ashraf Ghani to agree to a process that would essentially lead to Ghani’s removal from power, dissolve his government, end the Afghan republic, scrap the constitution, and establish a new “inclusive” administration that would include the Taliban...Unsurprisingly, Ghani has refused to step aside and insisted that any new government emerge through elections
...failing to propose alternatives."Stay there forever" is your motto.
Well, I know what NATO allies think about US credibility. Nato allies urge rethink on alliance
Last edited by Ludicus; September 29, 2021 at 06:00 PM.
Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
Charles Péguy
Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
Thomas Piketty
Your own link states the Taliban agreed to dramatically reduce violence and pursue peace talks with the Afghan government, an agreement the Taliban violated by pursuing military conquest of the entire country instead. The agreement to pursue peace talks was cited in the publicly released agreement as well as the statement from Biden’s State Department when they pointed out the Taliban was breaking it. This has been widely covered in the global press. Your denials are bald faced lies refuted by your own source material.
Again, per your own link, Ghani refused a US proposal to replace the government of Afghanistan through anything other than democratic elections. That has nothing to do with your false claim that “Ghani refused to give up the war with the Taliban.” None of your links say that.Maybe it's you who is lying. Ghani refused an interim government. That's exactly what Blinken has said. Blinken in his letter bluntly warned Ghani to accept an interim government,and said Ghani failed to urgently consider proposals on accelerating the peace process.
Previous link. And more. At that time, the right wasn't happy, An interim government would bring ruin to Afghanistan - Lowy ...
You’ve repeated the same lies so many times you’re now invoking Godwin’s Law.I'm pretty sure that the Vichy government would agree with you. But in a country under occupation, any national government is illegitimate.
...failing to propose alternatives."Stay there forever" is your motto.
Why not quote in full? “Nato allies urge rethink on alliance after Biden’s ‘unilateral’ Afghanistan exit.” Pointing out US credibility was harmed by Biden’s withdrawal from Afghanistan hurts, not helps, your narrative praising it. Lolol.Well, I know what NATO allies think about US credibility. Nato allies urge rethink on alliance
Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII
It's not written in the agreement.It seems that it was a secret deal,why? why a secret deal?Your own link states the Taliban agreed to dramatically reduce violence
Its not a false claim, and I said it in a previous post:refusing an interim government, Ghani automatically refused any last chance of peace. That's the reason why Blinken in his letter"bluntly warned" (sic) Ghani to accept an interim government.Again, per your own link, Ghani refused a US proposal to replace the government of Afghanistan through anything other than democratic elections. That has nothing to do with your false claim that “Ghani refused to give up the war with the Taliban.
I've already warned you, moderate your tone.Your denials are bald faced lies...You’ve repeated the same lies so many times
Not exactly. The rapid collapse of the Afghan government turned the departure into chaos. Biden did the right thing, but the decision was ultimately made by the Americans- as usual.Pointing out US credibility was harmed by Biden’s withdrawal from Afghanistan hurts, not helps, your narrative praising it
Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
Charles Péguy
Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
Thomas Piketty