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Thread: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

  1. #641
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    I agree with the general consensus on this thread that in the light of Afghanistan debacle the US has shown that it is both internally weak and an overall untrustworthy ally who is there only when times are good. I really thank the US military for finally legitimising the need of a unified European army in the eyes of people of the EU and the need for the EU to maintain global peace. The self-appointed "world policeman" is too feeble and increasingly irrelevant to rise to the task.
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  2. #642

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    If Europe hadn’t become weak, feeble, and irrelevant, America would never have needed to rise to the task in the first place in order to do your job for you. As it is, the EU can’t even stand up to China, much less protect its interests abroad without US backing. Europe was helpless to do anything about Afghanistan, despite resenting Biden for surrendering. That’s part of the reason why even modest US decline is already having a domino effect. Were it not for decades of US protection creating a nice little bubble to live in, the Euros would probably just go back to slaughtering each other like they did for thousands of years prior. Glhf.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; September 10, 2021 at 06:40 PM.
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  3. #643

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    I agree with the general consensus on this thread that in the light of Afghanistan debacle the US has shown that it is both internally weak and an overall untrustworthy ally who is there only when times are good.
    Those countries which were allied to the US during the Second World War and Cold War would likely disagree that it was a fair-weather friend.

    I really thank the US military for finally legitimising the need of a unified European army in the eyes of people of the EU and the need for the EU to maintain global peace. The self-appointed "world policeman" is too feeble and increasingly irrelevant to rise to the task.
    The EU's modus operandi is to treat every crisis as an excuse to expand its own scope, even, if not especially, if it was the cause the crisis. Those with any degree of foresight should be wary of pan-European imperialism. As for Afghanistan, the lesson for the European NATO members is that they should develop the military capacity to operate independently rather than solely as adjutants to the US. That, though, would require military investment.



  4. #644
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Funny to see how the same guys who couldn't wait to pull out of Afghanistan under Trump now triumphantly play the blame game and cover up Trump's agenda to "end the endless war".

    Biden simply kept his word and stuck to the plan to pull out and he went through with it. The withdrawal was premature and ill prepared, yes. Thousands of US troops and partners were stuck at the airport. Pretty embarrassing. But in hindsight it doesn't seem to me that a Taliban takeover could have been prevented even if the withdrawal had been done as smoothly as possible. The Afghans simply weren't ready to fight the Taliban without air support, I guess. Even though they had all the necessary equipment and, like, vastly outnumbered the Talibs. Umh, yeah...
    I don't think they would have been ready even if the US and buddies had stayed another 20 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    I agree with the general consensus on this thread that in the light of Afghanistan debacle the US has shown that it is both internally weak and an overall untrustworthy ally who is there only when times are good. I really thank the US military for finally legitimising the need of a unified European army in the eyes of people of the EU and the need for the EU to maintain global peace. The self-appointed "world policeman" is too feeble and increasingly irrelevant to rise to the task.
    Totally silly comment. US troops and allies went in there when times were utterly dire and stayed when times where dire for 20 years. It's also not like the US acted alone and unsanctioned by the EU.

    The EU wouldn't have sent troops as a response to a major terrorist act in the first place and never will, nor will the EU ever take initiative in any other scenario. The EU is a failed project and its only purpose is to drain Germany for the benefit of everyone else. The notion of the EU having the ability to be a better "world police force" based on NATO mandates that aren't backed and therefore led by the USA is laughable at best.
    Last edited by swabian; September 11, 2021 at 04:19 AM.

  5. #645
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    Funny to see how the same guys who couldn't wait to pull out of Afghanistan under Trump are still not against the pull out, but now triumphantly play the blame game by criticizing the manner in which the it was done, and still agree with Trump's agenda to "end the endless war".

    Biden simply kept his word and other than Biden's handler(s) having him lie both publicly and privately, stuck to the plan that his handler(s) changed to pull out and he went through with it. The withdrawal was premature and ill prepared, yes. Thousands of US troops and partners were stuck at the airport. Pretty embarrassing. But in hindsight it doesn't seem to me that a Taliban takeover could have been prevented even if the withdrawal had been done as smoothly as possible. The Afghans simply weren't ready to fight the Taliban without the air support Biden's handler(s) had him promise, I guess. Even though they had all the necessary equipment what with Biden's handler(s) withdrawing the contractors that maintained the air force and shutting down facilities in the middle of the night and, with all those ghost soldiers, police and security guards, vastly outnumbered the Talibs.
    The President lying in his teeth is pretty crap, Trump level stupidity and/or disregard for the truth. Trump was elected because people were sick of this crap. Someone like him will be elected again because this cardboard president was wheeled out and handed a win by superdelegates and the Orange Idiot. Business as usual stinks.

    I'm no expert but the mess in Afghanistan seems like it could have been handled better. Even discounting the pearl clutching hysterics of the autobot right ("they left entire airfleets and biometric scanners behind! Hooked straight into the CIA mainframeerinos!") the collapse was embarrassing for us.

    You're right it was never going to be good but Biden has been terrible, between barely mumbling his lines and trotting out the shabbiest lies. I mean Trump might have done this particular job worse but its hard to see how.

    The blame lies with Biden, Trump, Obama and Bush for this mess that should have ended in 2003. The greatest blame must lie with the kleptocrat Cheney. It was his plan to go in (justified, but unclear how we were to get out) and his plan to stay (an absolute cluster**** of the highest order, for which he should be gaoled).
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  6. #646

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    Funny to see how the same guys who couldn't wait to pull out of Afghanistan under Trump now triumphantly play the blame game and cover up Trump's agenda to "end the endless war".

    Indeed that is how partisan they are. If Trump were to come out and say "The withdraw was all my idea and was a bigly good thing.", most of those deriding Biden as weak for ending the forever war would immediately do a complete 180 and start deriding him for taking credit for Strong Daddy ending the forever war. For them whether something is good or bad, right or wrong, is entirely based on who is doing it, rather than what is being done.

  7. #647

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    Indeed that is how partisan they are. If Trump were to come out and say "The withdraw was all my idea and was a bigly good thing.", most of those deriding Biden as weak for ending the forever war would immediately do a complete 180 and start deriding him for taking credit for Strong Daddy ending the forever war. For them whether something is good or bad, right or wrong, is entirely based on who is doing it, rather than what is being done.
    Trump did praise the withdrawal early on lol. Leftist projection off the charts. Democrats joined with Republicans last year in a legislative effort to block Trump’s troop withdrawal. (D)ifferent indeed. GOP leadership was against withdrawal then and they’re against it now.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; September 11, 2021 at 10:37 PM.
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  8. #648
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

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  9. #649
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    I agree with the general consensus on this thread that in the light of Afghanistan debacle the US has shown that it is both internally weak and an overall untrustworthy ally who is there only when times are good. I really thank the US military for finally legitimising the need of a unified European army in the eyes of people of the EU and the need for the EU to maintain global peace. The self-appointed "world policeman" is too feeble and increasingly irrelevant to rise to the task.
    The day that Europeans actually unite together to form an army to play world police is the day that pigs fly.

  10. #650
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    I for one would prefer as first step an conscript army in Germany again for defence of own or allied territory instead of military adventures worldwide.

    European army is so long utopia as the eastern part of the EU is redeveloping in authoritarian "democracy" again.
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  11. #651

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    If only people were more understanding of Ludicus' beloved Taliban heroes, who are simply Commanding the Right and Forbidding the Wrong:

    Elite Taliban death squads have tracked down and killed at least four Afghan counterterrorism agents since August 22, The Sunday Times reported.
    The men were members of two units working out of the National Directorate of Security (NDS) and had been trained by British and US forces, the newspaper said.
    ...
    Another of the four men killed had all his fingernails pulled out before he was shot, The Sunday Times said
    ...
    The Taliban are accused of murdering a pregnant woman in front of her family on September 4, CNN reported.

    On Wednesday, Taliban fighters whipped and beat a group of Afghan women protesting the all-male interim government, CNN reported.

    Earlier this month, the Taliban also raped and beat a gay man after they lured him to meet them, ITV reported.

    At least four people protesting Taliban rule have been killed by the group, Ravina Shamdasani, the UN's rights spokesperson, said this week.
    https://www.businessinsider.com/tali...-report-2021-9

    Journalists working for Afghanistan's Etilaatroz newspaper said they were detained by Taliban fighters and brutally beaten after covering demonstrations in Kabul.

    Photographer Nematullah Naqdi and reporter Taqi Daryabi were covering women's-rights protests on Wednesday when they were arrested and taken to a police station in the country's capital, the BBC reported.

    The journalists said they were beaten with electric cables, whips, and batons before being released without explanation, the BBC reported.
    https://www.businessinsider.com/afgh...taliban-2021-9
    Last edited by Infidel144; September 13, 2021 at 06:40 AM.

  12. #652

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    The EU's modus operandi is to treat every crisis as an excuse to expand its own scope, even, if not especially, if it was the cause the crisis. Those with any degree of foresight should be wary of pan-European imperialism. As for Afghanistan, the lesson for the European NATO members is that they should develop the military capacity to operate independently rather than solely as adjutants to the US. That, though, would require military investment.
    Investment that European countries are not used to make.

    I for one would prefer as first step an conscript army in Germany again for defence of own or allied territory instead of military adventures worldwide.

    European army is so long utopia as the eastern part of the EU is redeveloping in authoritarian "democracy" again.
    Highly debatable. But regardless how you see them, why would you escalate against your allies in the region?

    Also the issue isn't a lack of boots. Its a lack of means I dont think conscription is necessary or even desirable.

    Also defense of own or allied territories and military adventures worldwide, they are not always mutually exclusive. This things are more complex.
    Last edited by Knight of Heaven; September 13, 2021 at 09:37 AM.

  13. #653
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Just a side note, I was glancing at some newspaper reports from the 1840's following up unrelated matters and saw the reports from "Cabool". The tone was satisfaction that Dost Mahommed and Mahomed Akbar Khan had been punished and the EIC could withdraw with honour intact. I recall from my study of Indian history the atrocities inflicted on all sides, including some horrific punitive acts by British forces.

    I have to say while US administrations in Afghanistan have not covered themselves with glory here (especially the utterly corrupt Bush/Cheney administration) its worth noting the contrasts here.

    The British intervention was a strategic move to secure NW India from Persian and Russian interference. The stupidity of occupying Afghanistan to deny a strong base for enemies is as clear today as it was back then: generally any trying to use it as a base gets their fingers burnt and there are numerous local antagonists to foil local threats: indeed the initial US intervention made very good use of assets borrowed from Iran: there were plenty of anti-Taliban and anti-Pashtun forces available to get the job done.

    The EIC (supported by Great Britain directly) occupation of Kabul was marked by naked ambition and utter contempt for local mores and beliefs: by contrast I believe many government and NGO workers in the US occupation acted in good faith to promote the stated agenda (however hollow Cheney's lies were). The EIC agenda was pie in the sky stuff, Dost Mohammed was blandly ordered to disband tribal forces and recruit a national army (as if either thing were possible) and the US does seem to have fallen into this blind refusal to acknowledge local conditions too.

    On of the biggest differences in atrocities. there have been some horrible murders by Australian special forces, and no doubt some US service people have gone off the rails and done bad thigs, but in general AFAIK the occupation forces have taken great pains to show respect and behave well (in pretty horrific, one might even say dystopian, conditions). The has been no repetition of the abuse of women shown by the British forces or widespread massacres such as were undertaken in punitive raids to punish the "Affghans" in 1842.

    The US is a global superpower and an Empire, but it is by no means the worst behaved Empire in history. Cheney's blatant kleptocratic regime was a stain on US and world history, but the US remains a polity that at least attempts to behave well and often meets its own standards.
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  14. #654

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    The US is a global superpower and an Empire, but it is by no means the worst behaved Empire in history. Cheney's blatant kleptocratic regime was a stain on US and world history, but the US remains a polity that at least attempts to behave well and often meets its own standards.

    Cheney wasn't out of the ordinary. remember how the creepy silent type, Bush sr. committed war crimes in Iraq (sometime after numerous sexual assault reports)? Well, after giving funding, training and weapons to terrorists, war criminals and drug cartels when he was director of CIA and Reagan was president. Heck we could go even further in the past to 1930s and remember how FDR had industrialists build up military-industrial capacities for both Soviets and German Reich.
    Let's be honest here, ever since Wilson wasn't shot for some reason, American presidents and governments have been full of kleptocrats, war criminals and other business-oriented sociopaths. Everything that happened in America since beginning of XX century has been a stain on history, and it is continuing up to today as well.

  15. #655

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Damn... Some can't take criticism...

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  16. #656
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    At least four people protesting Taliban rule have been killed by the group, Ravina Shamdasani, the UN's rights spokesperson, said this week.
    https://www.businessinsider.com/tali...-report-2021-9
    Is this not clear this is all the fault of US and western administration? I don't mean the retreating part.


    When they were fighting against Soviet, US helped weaponizing those people and they won.

    When they needed to fight against Taliban, what did western countries do? Build schools and nice houses, big talk about democracy, have US soldiers play bodyguards so everyone can live in a fake made-up peaceful environment. Where was their combat training? military industry? anti-Taliban propaganda? Did people even stock M16 or AK at home or have bombs under bridges and roads?


    And now they're protesting? Who would be so stupid to protest when Soviet invaded? Just go to their places and shoot them dead! If those people who're unhappy about Taliban now had done any real resistance, Taliban would never be able to go this far.

  17. #657

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Damn... Some can't take criticism...

    If Trump is at fault for Afghanistan ( which is kinda ridiculous), then Biden is even more at fault for going ahead with it.

  18. #658
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight of Heaven View Post
    If Trump is at fault for Afghanistan ( which is kinda ridiculous), then Biden is even more at fault for going ahead with it.
    Indeed, US politics is a bit of a nightmare. Hard to see how Trump could have done it worse really.

    Both Trump and Biden were right to order the withdrawal and its a stain on the previous administrations that forces were left there.
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  19. #659

    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Bush and Cheney invaded Afghanistan, after failing to provide a shred of proof for their "official" story of 911 attacks back when Trump was still doing Reality TV and would show up on WWE matches lol.
    This -sandwich is entirely on the globalist neocon/neolib establishment, to which Trump wasn't really related until years later, so blaming Trump administration for Afghanistan is just another case of TDS and nothing more.

  20. #660
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Both Trump and Biden were right to order the withdrawal and its a stain on the previous administrations that forces were left there.
    Indeed. Biden rightly defends America’s exit from Afghanistan, “the right decision, the wise decision, the best decision for America”. And again, btw, it is easy to criticize, but it would be difficult to do it any other way. It’s done, warmongers need to deal with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    ... instead of military adventures worldwide.European army is so long utopia as the eastern part of the EU is redeveloping in authoritarian "democracy" again.
    This

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    . Were it not for decades of US protection creating a nice little bubble to live in, the Euros would probably just go back to slaughtering each other like they did for thousands of years prior.

    Oh Lord! we slaughtered the entire world! Have you forgotten the history of the western imperialism? some even say that the European slaughter of Indians changed the global climate!
    Last edited by Ludicus; September 18, 2021 at 01:03 PM.
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