US Forces In Full Scale Retreat From Afghanistan; 20 years of War Ending In Total Military Defeat?

[Lord Thesaurian]

You painted this entire situation to be the fault of US troops withdrawing when in reality violence was worse in Afghanistan in 2017 and 2018 when there were thousands of more US troops in the country.

The fact is the presence of US soldiers has not deterred violence as you claimed.

What the article said:

More women and children were killed and wounded in Afghanistan in the first half of 2021 than in the first six months of any year since the United Nations began systematically keeping count in 2009, a U.N. report said Monday.

The war-torn country saw a 47% increase in the number of all civilians killed and wounded in violence across Afghanistan in the first six months of the year, compared to the same period last year, according to the report.

What I said:

I responded to an article about how the highest casualties of women and children ever this year are a result of and preview of what to expect after NATO fully withdraws and people are relatively unprotected. That’s a fact.

That's simple. Peace talks dragged on and have led to no where. Taliban have seen this and simply started attacks again. We are going back to violence levels seen in 2017 and 2018 when the Taliban resurged and before peace talks began.

You’re the one falsely claiming NATO presence made no difference in the situation when current coverage is focusing on how NATO withdrawal has doomed civilians, especially women and children, to a more repressive and deadly situation when compared to before, including the likelihood of civil war, leaving Kabul with little or no leverage in any peace talks, etc. Saying it made no difference doesn’t make it so, and I’m under no obligation to convince you to accept reality.

As U.S. Withdraws, Civilian Casualties In Afghanistan Reach A Record High

The report found a particularly sharp increase in killings and injuries since May, when international military forces began their withdrawal and the fighting intensified following the Taliban's offensive.

The U.N. report warned that without a significant de-escalation in violence, Afghanistan is on course for 2021 to have the highest ever number of documented civilian casualties in a single year since U.N. record-keeping in the country began.

https://www.npr.org/2021/07/26/10206...ch-record-high

[Vanoi]

You’re the one falsely claiming NATO presence made no difference in the situation when current coverage is focusing on how NATO withdrawal has doomed civilians,

No where in the quote of your article does it once state that the withdrawal of US forces has directly led to an increase in casualties among women and children.

especially women and children, to a more repressive and deadly situation when compared to before, including the likelihood of civil war, leaving Kabul with little or no leverage in any peace talks, etc. Saying it made no difference doesn’t make it so, and I’m under no obligation to convince you to accept reality.

You're not obligated to do anything here. That's not gonna to change though that violence was worse in 2017 when more US troops were stationed in the country.

You just want to paint a narrative here because you don't like the US withdrawing. Afghan civilians have been dying in droves for years. Complaining about it now like American troops mattered is ridiculous.

[Lord Thesaurian]

No where in the quote of your article does it once state that the withdrawal of US forces has directly led to an increase in casualties among women and children.


You're not obligated to do anything here. That's not gonna to change though that violence was worse in 2017 when more US troops were stationed in the country.

You just want to paint a narrative here because you don't like the US withdrawing. Afghan civilians have been dying in droves for years. Complaining about it now like American troops mattered is ridiculous.

I’m not “painting a narrative.” You’re projecting because you got caught lying - again - and are trying to shift the goalposts to cover. Everything I said is factual and sourced. There is wall to wall coverage of this. It’s not my fault you launched into another failed “gotcha” attempt without bothering to check.

[Heathen Hammer]

I think you're confused. The Taliban is not one single group. China is talking to Afghan Taliban. Not the Pakistani Taliban. Separate groups with sperate leaders and separate goals.

Afghanistan and Pakistan border each other. The Pakistani Taliban operate in both countries. Making a deal with the Afghan Taliban does not mean to the Pakistani Taliban.

And? That doesn't really change the fact that there is no evidence that China is going to fight a war with them.
America lost war in Afghanistan because its military has proven to be incapable with dealing with insurgency, while also failing to appeal to population due to support for a corrupt and oppressive regime, while also inflicting numerous casualties from "collateral damage" against civilian population.
It seems that narrative that China is about to fight a war with them instead is just American cope due to the fact that China is accomplishing same goals at much lower cost and in much shorter period of time.

[Cyclops]

I saw on the news the EU expects an increasing flood of refugees from Afghanistan (via Iran and Turkey). The Clintons certainly smell shonky, and Trump was a combination **** sandwich and dumpster fire, but neither have managed to approach the Bush II kleptocracy for staggering evil. They took a region known for evil and cruelty and actually made it worse.

But hey, Haliburton made a tidy sum so the simps will keep on defending it...coz...freedom I guess.

[Vanoi]

And? That doesn't really change the fact that there is no evidence that China is going to fight a war with them.

So China will let the TTP attack it's citizens and investments in both countries? I highly doubt it. China is already pissed about the bus attack that killed several of it's citizens and wants justice done.

I’m not “painting a narrative.” You’re projecting because you got caught lying - again - and are trying to shift the goalposts to cover. Everything I said is factual and sourced. There is wall to wall coverage of this. It’s not my fault you launched into another failed “gotcha” attempt without bothering to check.

My source is still there and it backs up exactly what I said. You tried to paint the narrative that the withdrawal US troops is leading to increased casualties but your own sources don't once state as a fact.

Only one who got caught here lying is you. It's not my fault you can't properly read your sources or mine.

[Heathen Hammer]

So China will let the TTP attack it's citizens and investments in both countries? I highly doubt it. China is already pissed about the bus attack that killed several of it's citizens and wants justice done.

So? I already posted examples how Israel and Saudi Arabia had thousands of Americans killed, spied against them, etc and they are still treated well by America for some globalist reason, so same will be the case of China and the Talibans. I don't think China is known for giving a about its citizens, neither is US.

[Vanoi]

So? I already posted examples how Israel and Saudi Arabia had thousands of Americans killed, spied against them, etc and they are still treated well by America for some globalist reason, so same will be the case of China and the Talibans. I don't think China is known for giving a about its citizens, neither is US.

Sorry but the Taliban are not Israel or Saudi Arabia. Nor does China act like America.

China does care about it citizens. Why else are they pressuring the Pakistani government about the bus blast that killed it's people?

China does also care about it's investments and businesses in Pakistan and Afghanistan. They are not going to simply let them be attacked and do nothing about it. That's naive thinking on your part.

[Lord Thesaurian]

My source is still there and it backs up exactly what I said. You tried to paint the narrative that the withdrawal US troops is leading to increased casualties but your own sources don't once state as a fact.

Only one who got caught here lying is you. It's not my fault you can't properly read your sources or mine.

Your own statista source shows 2021 casualties have already neared 2016-18 levels in the first half of this year. That in no way backs up your false claim that civilian casualties were higher then, and suggests the opposite, in line with the UN report cited in the article I linked. Projecting your refusal to read source material is comical.

US troop levels was also higher in 2017 and yet casualties were worse than they are now.

As U.S. Withdraws, Civilian Casualties In Afghanistan Reach A Record High

The U.S.-NATO withdrawal is more than 95% complete and due to be finished by Aug. 31.

The U.N. report warned that without a significant de-escalation in violence, Afghanistan is on course for 2021 to have the highest ever number of documented civilian casualties in a single year since U.N. record-keeping in the country began.

https://www.npr.org/2021/07/26/10206...ch-record-high

The fact is the presence of US soldiers has not deterred violence as you claimed.

The report found a particularly sharp increase in killings and injuries since May, when international military forces began their withdrawal and the fighting intensified following the Taliban's offensive.

https://www.npr.org/2021/07/26/10206...ch-record-high

No where in the quote of your article does it once state that the withdrawal of US forces has directly led to an increase in casualties among women and children.

It appears you didn’t even read the article I responded to:

The slaughter of women and children in Afghanistan is ramping up

More women and children were killed and wounded in Afghanistan in the first half of 2021 than in the first six months of any year since the United Nations began systematically keeping count in 2009, a U.N. report said Monday.

The pattern of killing women and young girls is unfortunately giving us a preview of what we can expect from the Taliban once they fully retake control. Some of the girls and young women in Afghanistan have grown up and spent their entire lives only knowing a country where American and NATO forces were on hand to provide at least some measure of protection. Many have taken advantage of this fact to live at least a slightly more “westernized” life in terms of being able to go to school and dress a bit more casually.

That’s all changing very quickly. The Taliban are executing women who have learned to read and who fail to dress in the full, traditional garb of strict Islamic guidelines. Young girls who are not practicing Islam “properly” are disappearing on a regular basis. One local reporter was quoted as saying that the UN’s figures for the number of dead or wounded children may already be a significant undercount.

https://hotair.com/jazz-shaw/2021/07...ing-up-n404524

And don't talk to me about rejecting facts. You've ignored the cost of this entire war everytime I bring it up and try to deflect by stating there's only a small number of troops in country.

Not true. I previously quoted the Cost of War Project myself on a related note. What I’ve done is cite that the alleged cost savings as a result of withdrawal are likely to be minimal.

That leaves the issue of money. There is no question that ending the U.S. ground presence will yield savings—but, it turns out, significantly less than one might think. After all, U.S. troops still need to be housed, fed, and paid regardless of whether they are based in Afghanistan, Qatar, or Texas. The Biden administration has also pledged to keep financing the Afghan army to the tune of several billion dollars a year, and has actually proposed to increase budgetary support to the government in Kabul. Then there are the operational and maintenance costs for aircraft making the long-distance commute to Afghanistan, which will be eye-watering, as will any new basing arrangements. Add it all up, and the supposed windfall of savings from leaving Afghanistan starts to look more illusory than real.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...-china/619286/

You ignored it lol. More on that:

U.S. President Joe Biden has announced the full withdrawal of U.S. and coalition forces from Afghanistan by Sept. 11 this year. This policy has some in Washington banking on a windfall of freed-up money for other defense priorities.

Don’t count on it.

Leaving costs more than staying. The Department of Defense is seeking some new and plenty of ongoing investments in counterterrorism infrastructure in the region as a result of the pullout. Salaries and other expenses for roughly 300,000 members of the Afghan National Security Forces will endure.

But eliminating the OCO account does not eliminate overseas contingencies. What it does do, however, is increase the likelihood the services will have to cannibalize funds exclusively intended to train and equip the force to pay for any unexpected expenses related to shifting regional operations. While the Afghanistan withdrawal is to be completed by the end of this fiscal year, some costs will spill into 2022—further squeezing the limited funds available and taxing the services financially.

Ending the United States’ military presence in Afghanistan is not mission over. It is mission change.

If Congress is expecting a windfall of savings to result from the Afghanistan withdrawal, it is likely to be disappointed. Threats will still need to be managed—just from slightly farther away. In the meantime, it will discover that leaving is hard, dangerous, and expensive.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/04/26...nyone-expects/

[Heathen Hammer]

Sorry but the Taliban are not Israel or Saudi Arabia. Nor does China act like America.

Taliban is literally same thing as Saudi Arabia lol, except for a few very mild theological differences.
In the context of Israel attacking US Navy and spying against US, it is also similar context.

China does care about it citizens. Why else are they pressuring the Pakistani government about the bus blast that killed it's people?

China does also care about it's investments and businesses in Pakistan and Afghanistan. They are not going to simply let them be attacked and do nothing about it. That's naive thinking on your part.

That's what America does to its own citizens.

[Vanoi]

Your own statista source shows 2021 casualties have already neared 2016-18 levels in the first half of this year. That in no way backs up your false claim that civilian casualties were higher then,

I can read numbers perfectly fine. The number of killed or injured in 2021 so far is 5183. The number injured or killed in 2017/2018 is over 5200.

So no I am correct. Civilian causalities in 2017/2018 were higher than they currently are now. Is it that hard for you to do basic math?

and suggests the opposite, in line with the UN report cited in the article I linked. Projecting your refusal to read source material is comical.

Not one of sources states the withdrawal has caused an increase in civilian casualties among women and children. Lying is pathetic.

It appears you didn’t even read the article I responded to:

See above.

Not true. I previously quoted the Cost of War Project myself on a related note. What I’ve done is cite that the alleged cost savings as a result of withdrawal are likely to be minimal.

You ignored it lol. More on that:

And yet again you ignore the actual cost of the war and continue to mislead by focusing on current costs of the war.

The point I've made each time that you continue to ignore is that the the trillions of dollars spent on the war in Afghanistan has not led to victory or even real progress. Afghanistan does not control most of its territory nor the Afghan Army that has been funded and trained are able to fight on its own. And yet you still advocate to support them. Why? Because you don't care how long this war goes on or how much money has been wasted. You'd stay indefinitely if you could. No forever wars please.

It's not about saving money. It's about not wasting money on a failed war any longer.

[Vanoi]

Taliban is literally same thing as Saudi Arabia lol, except for a few very mild theological differences.

No they aren't. The Saudis believe in Wahhabism. The Taliban are Deobandis, a separate ideology. Wow you really don't know anything about the Taliban do you?

In the context of Israel attacking US Navy and spying against US, it is also similar context.

Taliban ≠ Israel.

That's what America does to its own citizens.

China is not America.

[Lord Thesaurian]

I can read numbers perfectly fine. The number of killed or injured in 2021 so far is 5183. The number injured or killed in 2017/2018 is over 5200.

So no I am correct. Civilian causalities in 2017/2018 were higher than they currently are now. Is it that hard for you to do basic math?

Can you? 6 months is less than 12. And 2021 is on track to have the highest civilian casualties on record according to the UN. You were dead wrong. Period.

Not one of sources states the withdrawal has caused an increase in civilian casualties among women and children. Lying is pathetic.

Lying is indeed pathetic. So why are you?

And yet again you ignore the actual cost of the war and continue to mislead by focusing on current costs of the war.

You’re projecting hard. Focusing on sunk costs is misleading. Focusing on current and future costs is how anyone actually concerned with cost would approach it.

The point I've made each time that you continue to ignore is that the the trillions of dollars spent on the war in Afghanistan has not led to victory or even real progress. Afghanistan does not control most of its territory nor the Afghan Army that has been funded and trained are able to fight on its own. And yet you still advocate to support them. Why? Because you don't care how long this war goes on or how much money has been wasted. You'd stay indefinitely if you could. No forever wars please.

It's not about saving money. It's about not wasting money on a failed war any longer.

At last you admit you don’t care about saving money. So why did you bring up cost? I’ve established that the costs of “mission change” as result of withdrawal are extensive and may even cost more than staying. I’m glad you finally said yourself that you don’t care about the facts, you just want out.

2500-5000 troops in a non combat mission to support the Afghan government is a “forever war,” but leaving hundreds of troops in country indefinitely is ending it. Money already spent matters to you, but saving very little or even costing more post withdrawal doesn’t. Thank you for summarizing the self contradictory absurdity of your position.

[Heathen Hammer]

No they aren't. The Saudis believe in Wahhabism. The Taliban are Deobandis, a separate ideology. Wow you really don't know anything about the Taliban do you?

Both are flavors of islamic theocracy, so your point is irrelevant.

Taliban ≠ Israel.

Israel-USA relationship is a good example of why Americans sacrifices lives of their citizens and interests of their nation to keep up this strange alliance.

China is not America.

Communist China's history has many aspects to it but caring about their citizen's lives isn't one of them.

[Heathen Hammer]

It seems that Taliban is savoring its victory over America by deliberately mocking that famous staged photo that was designed to symbolize American military might:

[dogukan]

I am quite happy with USA's decision to focus more on E.Europe, East Asia and to an extend Middle East.

Afghanistan had been such a mess. I simply think the country should have been divided along ethnic lines. Now lets hope the other actors in the region will feel the need to intervene somewhat to prevent a Taliban take-over.
That would be the most win-win outcome. Besides, it seems like if they don't, Russia, Iran and China will have a huge Sunni Islamist movement right in their face. Sunni jihadism's worst enemies: Shia İran, Butcher Russia, Godless China

Good call.

[Papay]

Taliban have already captured 5 provincial capitals. It would be a miracle if Kabul manages to survive more time than Najibullah(3 years)

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

Ghani must be desperated as he has called back Dostum, who has a reputation as staunch defender of by him controlled regions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_...um#Taliban_era

[PointOfViewGun]

20 years and 4 presıdents later, only one question remains; have they accomplished nothing?

[Heathen Hammer]

20 years and 4 presıdents later, only one question remains; have they accomplished nothing?

Military-Industrial-Parasite complex made billions, so yes.