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Thread: Repost the Constitution - An Idea

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    Gaius Baltar's Avatar Roma in aeternum
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    Default Repost the Constitution - An Idea

    There has been proposed an idea to repost the Constitution and replace the version currently posted in the Curia. The reasons for this are:

    1. Clean up some minor reference errors (footnote #s, etc.).

    2. Remove extra posts that have since been deleted.

    3. Condense and present a new, more colorful appearance.

    The old thread is of course historical and will be archived.

    Any thoughts?



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  2. #2
    Emperor Commodus's Avatar citizen, allegedly
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    Default Re: Repost the Constitution - An Idea

    I support a straight repost because having a member in current good standing do all the posts is a better look than one member and then a sequence of banned poster with even their identity removed. This could even be done without voting so long as the content itself remains identical.

    Changing up the appearance + reworking references + condensing content would be a different matter, on the teir of Akar's PDF edition - such would require a referendum in the Prothalamos to complete, along with a proposed layout and solid discussion on the changes made. It may be something to recruit for, a group of interested people to present goals and suggest what to condense as well as possibly do with it in the meantime while it's being changed. As for colors and overall structure, I'd suggest creating a sample post (with sample text, no need to go all the way unless you'd like) with the kind of changes to this end you think would be helpful. In so many words there's three stages of thought here - simply reposting the thread, changing how the thread looks, and 'condensing' the thread implying substantive content changes even if the spirit is trying to be preserved. It would be much easier to go for these one at a time than all at once, and all at once or the second two options would be an undertaking.

    For the above reasons and the fact this can easily be a deep discussion regarding Curial meta, I'd suggest taking the contents to the CCT (if the intention is larger) or the thread entirely to the Curia main (if going all the way including the content revisions). If there's a particular reason to use the Symposium, I won't move it immediately as to allow that reason to be stated.
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    Default Re: Repost the Constitution - An Idea

    I just realized I made a critical typo, I in fact meant Townhall instead of the Curial Commentary Thread - not sure why I mixed them. Might be a bit strange, but should turn out fine.
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    Default Re: Repost the Constitution - An Idea

    VONC?

    I support this idea, in theory, pending final approval once a full proposal is presented.

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    Default Re: Repost the Constitution - An Idea

    I support a straight repost because having a member in current good standing do all the posts is a better look than one member and then a sequence of banned poster with even their identity removed. This could even be done without voting so long as the content itself remains identical.
    I agree with this. Perhaps this is the logical first step. Next we could look into more substantive changes (ex. the omni PDF versions) that would require Prothalamus work.

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    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: Repost the Constitution - An Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius Baltar View Post
    There has been proposed an idea to repost the Constitution and replace the version currently posted in the Curia. The reasons for this are:

    1. Clean up some minor reference errors (footnote #s, etc.).

    2. Remove extra posts that have since been deleted.

    3. Condense and present a new, more colorful appearance.

    The old thread is of course historical and will be archived.

    Any thoughts?
    Overall I find the current posted constitution somewhat confusing, because it's hard to follow a logical pattern.

    So, I have no objections to re-post the constitution, but before that happen I think input from other citizens are required mostly to hear what other citizens thinks about how the current constitution is presented.
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    Default Re: Repost the Constitution - An Idea

    Changing the presentation and logical flow would elevate to a Proth-worthy proposal. I'm open for suggestions on that, as well as getting a group together to discuss an approach.
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    Default Re: Repost the Constitution - An Idea

    I see no reason to end this discussion right now.
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    Default Re: Repost the Constitution - An Idea

    Then it's a good thing it is ongoing with no clear sign of ending, unless it comes to be ignored.
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    Default Re: Repost the Constitution - An Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Commodus View Post
    Then it's a good thing it is ongoing with no clear sign of ending, unless it comes to be ignored.
    I thought so.

    However, in order to prevent this discussion to be ignored you or one of the other Curial officiers with divine power can copy the OP and re-post it here so other citizen can make suggestions.
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    Default Re: Repost the Constitution - An Idea

    I can't fathom why it would be necessary to transcribe the OP into this thread when anyone is free to look at it and then suggest as they wish in full. At most a link would be a courtesy, one that has just been provided.

    For the various reasons this thread would likely be ignored, not having a duplication of the constitution in the thread isn't one of them.

    That said, barring any solid reason against I'm tempted to simply go for the repost on the semantic reasoning raised in the OP and my post. I'll probably drop a comment in the Townhall to let it simmer a little before fully going for it, just to give extra opportunity for objection. It's not a big deal, but not being a big deal is not a reason vs the rationale offered.
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    Default Re: Repost the Constitution - An Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Commodus View Post
    I can't fathom why it would be necessary to transcribe the OP into this thread when anyone is free to look at it and then suggest as they wish in full. At most a link would be a courtesy, one that has just been provided.
    Is it?

    Well, then how are the other citizens suppose to suggest a different flow/pattern in the constitution when we cannot make suggestions from the current posted constitution in this thread.

    One reason for that is the use of the Anchor BBCode and that is not easy to duplicate a post in a closed thread. While the Censors and you have the mod tools at your disposal as a LM.
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    Default Re: Repost the Constitution - An Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    Well, then how are the other citizens suppose to suggest a different flow/pattern in the constitution when we cannot make suggestions from the current posted constitution in this thread.
    By opening a new tab in your browser, which offers the Constitution in full.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    One reason for that is the use of the Anchor BBCode and that is not easy to duplicate a post in a closed thread. While the Censors and you have the mod tools at your disposal as a LM.
    If you want to have an unlocked copy for quoting and suggestion purposes, I can offer such a version through the main curia section and if you want to work on it, the thread will be open to do so.
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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Repost the Constitution - An Idea

    It seems like a good idea, I'd support this.
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    Default Re: Repost the Constitution - An Idea

    What's wrong with the footnotes? They have been implemented in order to make the constitution more readable and comprehensible.

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    Default Re: Repost the Constitution - An Idea

    They've failed. Badly.

    I'm all in favor of making the constitution actually legible.
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    Default Re: Repost the Constitution - An Idea

    The Const. is perfectly legible.

    Strongly opposed to this idea

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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Repost the Constitution - An Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    They've failed. Badly.

    I'm all in favor of making the constitution actually legible.
    How did they fail? Can you cite an example?

    As far as I see it, each article includes the basic information and the footnote guides the reader to find more details about a specific aspect of the Curia. If the details don't interest you, you can simply skip them, unlike in the previous iteration of the Constitution, where every bit of information was randomly put together without any structure and cohesion.

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    Default Re: Repost the Constitution - An Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    What's wrong with the footnotes? They have been implemented in order to make the constitution more readable and comprehensible.
    I was under the impression some minor numbering administrative errors were spotted, maybe the OP refers to something else?
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    Default Re: Repost the Constitution - An Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    How did they fail? Can you cite an example?

    As far as I see it, each article includes the basic information and the footnote guides the reader to find more details about a specific aspect of the Curia. If the details don't interest you, you can simply skip them, unlike in the previous iteration of the Constitution, where every bit of information was randomly put together without any structure and cohesion.
    I am a new member in the Curia/site, unfamiliar with the constitution. I want to read it. I have two options:

    1. I read the text and the footnotes in logical order, in which case I have to jump up and down, up and down, up and down on the page. This is a trivial annoyance on a 1080p monitor but a significant one on a phone/tablet or small laptop screen.

    2. I read the constitution in an ergonomic fashion, without jumping all over the place, in which case I don't really understand anything because there are more footnotes than lines of main text.

    Footnotes exist to hold parenthetical information and references. Right now there is more content in the footnotes than in the main body. In fact looking at the constitution right now, a lot of the footnotes are used in exactly one spot and one spot only.

    Example

    Citizens elect and can run for 9 Curial Officer positions: Consul, and Magistrates. 10
    There is no reason why the content of the footnotes cannot be inserted directly in there, specially for footnotes like

    Subject to the procedure in Section III, Article II.
    which seem like they were created only so that we could have footnotes.

    If I want to read this I have to:
    - read the first half of the sentence
    - scroll down to footnotes to read the information poor footnote 9
    - go to section III article II, read that.
    - go to section III's footnotes to read another mostly useless footnote that could have been part of the main text altogether.
    - go back up to section I article II and finish the sentence
    - go back down to footnotes and read footnote 10.

    Leaving aside that Article III section II should come before any other text that references it (curial elections and offices should be in the same chapter), this is just a horrible user experience.


    At the very least the number of footnotes should be pruned and only those that hold actual explanations not necessary for everyone be kept.
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; October 05, 2021 at 02:40 PM.
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