View Poll Results: Which planet should we focus on more to terraform?

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  • Mars

    5 26.32%
  • Venus

    4 21.05%
  • Neither.

    10 52.63%
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Thread: Venus vs. Mars

  1. #101
    Cookiegod's Avatar Civus Divus Ex Clibane
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    Default Re: Venus vs. Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    It was difficult to go to the moon, difficult to build the first computer, even more difficult to circle around the planet by ships, not even knowing what food to keep health or what weather they may encounter. If we had chosen the easy routes every time, we would have nothing today.
    It was difficult to levitate, to turn lead into gold, to pave roads with solar panels, and so on, and so on. Clearly no healthy dose of scepticism is a good thing. Humanity would have been so much worse off if we didn't constantly fall for those snake oil peddlers who waste money that would otherwise have gone to more productive endeavours, like, building the first computers, etc., etc.

    May I remind you that the first meteorologists were laughed at not because of the idea itself, but because so many before them had made these claims with no means to attain these goals, by "magic". And yeah, believing everything is the easy route.

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  2. #102
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    Default Re: Venus vs. Mars

    Jupiter's Ganymed seems to be more intersting, if you want an extraterrestial colony

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  3. #103

    Default Re: Venus vs. Mars

    Ganymede's gravity is even lower than that of Mars. Less than half of it in fact. The moons are great for automated production facilities. Not so much for anything else.
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  4. #104
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Venus vs. Mars

    How about we start with keeping Earth livable.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  5. #105
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Venus vs. Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    How about we start with keeping Earth livable.
    Indeed. But automated harvesting of resources could in the very long term be part of that nobody can see or have to deal with you mining waste in the asteroid belt.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  6. #106

    Default Re: Venus vs. Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    How about we start with keeping Earth livable.
    Space travel an expansion of humanity's living space is the only way to maintain Earth livable in the long-term.

  7. #107
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Venus vs. Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Space travel an expansion of humanity's living space is the only way to maintain Earth livable in the long-term.
    Very questionable. There is no reason to believe space travel and expansion will relieve the pressures on Earth's ecosystem.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  8. #108

    Default Re: Venus vs. Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Very questionable. There is no reason to believe space travel and expansion will relieve the pressures on Earth's ecosystem.

    Most of damage to ecosystem is from industry and resource mining and waste. Literally all of those major problems can be fixed when we do it elsewhere.

  9. #109

    Default Re: Venus vs. Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post

    Most of damage to ecosystem is from industry and resource mining and waste. Literally all of those major problems can be fixed when we do it elsewhere.
    Yes, Muizer is completely laughable, but only to someone who is not able to think planetary scales and who imagines that all that material will just gently float from space for us here to use. Do you have any idea of what kind of rocket traffic we would need and what it would do to our fuel resources and climate? I quote myself from just a handful of messages back:

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    Only two rockets in history have surpassed bringing 50 tonnes of payload to orbit. So let us assume that we got big rockets to bring something to Venus that isn't there. The water in one Olympic 50-meter swimming pool contains 2,500 tonnes worth of water. So to transport that to Venus, we would need to have 50 massive rockets fired from Earth. And if you think that dumping one swimming pool's worth of anything into that fiery hell is going to have any affect on how things look there, you are a fool.
    Just global iron ore production surpasses two billion tonnes annually. That is 40,000,000 rockets a year. Good luck making that sustainable.

  10. #110

    Default Re: Venus vs. Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    How about we start with keeping Earth livable.
    We cannot do both?

    Very questionable. There is no reason to believe space travel and expansion will relieve the pressures on Earth's ecosystem.
    We can never know how space exploration, and endeavor, will benefit humanity, but the truth is it has, in many ways we were not expecting.

    There would be no smartphones for example without the space program.

    I hear the argument that all this resources and money is wasted on space endeavors, while we on earth have real problems, that those resources could be used instead.

    This argument is a logical fallacy if there is one.

    The point here, is there is no reason we cannot do both, and there is no telling what advances we can have because of it , advances that might ending benefit us here on earth.
    Last edited by Knight of Heaven; July 30, 2021 at 01:37 AM.

  11. #111
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Venus vs. Mars

    Just global iron ore production surpasses two billion tonnes annually. That is 40,000,000 rockets a year. Good luck making that sustainable.
    Err I don't think anyone has proposed sending the years iron production into space...

    Edit:

    As I noted I doubt any kind off world colony is viable. But I still think there is potential in say exploring the asteroid belt ascertaining it has easily harvested resources. Compare your cited iron produced here is only worth ~$.0064 a troy once. But a troy once of the Palladium is worth ~$2655. and the world only produces 210 metric tons.
    Last edited by conon394; July 30, 2021 at 06:22 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  12. #112

    Default Re: Venus vs. Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Err I don't think anyone has proposed sending the years iron production into space...
    Is it really so hard to understand that I am trying to approximate and illustrate the proportions of planetary-level resource procurement from space? Whatever we supposedly try to bring from space has to be transported, and requires transportation methods. And unless you intend to dump all that into the atmosphere to crash on Earth, you need that transport to make a smooth landing, which is not an easy task.

    The idea of us procuring enough resources from space to have any global significance and doing it economically and ecologically is the ridiculous position, and clearly favored by people who are more inclined towards qualitative than quantitative thinking.

  13. #113
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Venus vs. Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    Is it really so hard to understand that I am trying to approximate and illustrate the proportions of planetary-level resource procurement from space? Whatever we supposedly try to bring from space has to be transported, and requires transportation methods. And unless you intend to dump all that into the atmosphere to crash on Earth, you need that transport to make a smooth landing, which is not an easy task.

    The idea of us procuring enough resources from space to have any global significance and doing it economically and ecologically is the ridiculous position, and clearly favored by people who are more inclined towards qualitative than quantitative thinking.
    And doing it in a very silly way your example that is. I doubt anyone thinks we are going to move Iron production space. You ignored my point however if you consider the exotic materials that the world produces in only tiny quantities and very much needs to available to avoid not un Terra forming earth you example does not hold. Again the counter is for example the world manged 6860 kg of Iridium in the most recent data I can find quickly. If you can find I not seeing 10s of thousands of rockets if you could double that with one capsule delivery.

    Look I only arguing that the Asteroid belt is potentially basically a planet that did not a change to form (I realize there are other ideals as well) but if bits proto core parts are available to be nudged and potentially a long term investment in resource acquisition for things that are very rare on the earths crust and or also require often rather not fun means to extract. Seems work spend some time to look into.
    Last edited by conon394; July 30, 2021 at 06:59 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  14. #114

    Default Re: Venus vs. Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    And doing it in a very silly way your example that is. I doubt anyone thinks we are going to move Iron production space. You ignored my point however if you consider the exotic materials that the world produces in only tiny quantities and very much needs to available to avoid not un Terra forming earth you example does not hold. Again the counter is for example the world manged 6860 kg of Iridium in the most recent data I can find quickly. If you can find I not seeing 10s of thousands of rockets if you could double that with one capsule delivery.
    Oh, I realize now that you did not read what kind of argument I was countering. I was answering to the message below, so yes, someone does think that we are going to move all kinds of production to space and thus fix our ecosystem. I would not have come up with any of that if someone suggested we go get an amount of precious resource that is way below the present payload capabilities of even smaller rockets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post

    Most of damage to ecosystem is from industry and resource mining and waste. Literally all of those major problems can be fixed when we do it elsewhere.

  15. #115
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Venus vs. Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight of Heaven View Post
    The point here, is there is no reason we cannot do both, and there is no telling what advances we can have because of it , advances that might ending benefit us here on earth.
    Sure. My comment was mainly to stress the point that we cannot rely on space exploration and colonization to fix the current imminent threats to civilization (if not human kind) on earth: those problems are becoming pressing and will become increasingly so within this century, possibly within decades. What I want to dismiss categorically is the notion (which amazingly some people still seem to harbour) is that we can preserve human civilization by "escaping" into space. For the short term that's a ridiculous proposition.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  16. #116

    Default Re: Venus vs. Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    Yes, Muizer is completely laughable, but only to someone who is not able to think planetary scales and who imagines that all that material will just gently float from space for us here to use. Do you have any idea of what kind of rocket traffic we would need and what it would do to our fuel resources and climate? I quote myself from just a handful of messages back:
    I bet they made same argument about colonizing other continents 600 years ago.
    Nobody said it will be easy or quick, but ultimately what else is humanity's Manifest Destiny, but not the stars?
    Explorers and discoverers were viewed as madmen by their contemporaries throughout human history, modern-day naysaing has less to do with logic and more with attempts to rationalize lack of vision and desire for greatness.
    Back in days of Rome or even later in medieval era, great works of architecture would take generations to complete, just imagine how pathetic "I don't care what happens after I die" people look in comparison their much more esteemed forefathers that would engage in great works, knowing full well that their fruits won't come long after they are dead.
    Just global iron ore production surpasses two billion tonnes annually. That is 40,000,000 rockets a year. Good luck making that sustainable.
    If we are going to break out the calculator and count on pointless things our governments spend money on, we will quickly find out that space exploration is realistically sustainable once we trim the fat of bureaucracy, foreign aid and other useless spending.

  17. #117

    Default Re: Venus vs. Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    I bet they made same argument about colonizing other continents 600 years ago.
    That is a very weak analogy. There are none of the feasibility issues about colonizing other continents. There is typically animals to be hunted and food to be grown in the destination, and sailing technology has been around for a long time. As soon as Columbus learned of the New World, there was no argumenting against colonization but an actual race by European powers to colonize the new continent. The Norse had settled in Greenland and Newfoundland way before that in their primitive ships. And before that, the Polynesians, originating from Taiwan, had spread all around the Pacific, including to Easter Island that is close to Americas.

    But space is a hostile place and doing anything there is a huge and expensive undertaking. The Antarctica is not nearly as hostile and expensive, but where are the thriving cities of Antarctica now, 200 years after its discovery? Do people have no vision and desire of greatness? Or is it just not that feasible to eke out a living in that cold, snowy desert?
    Last edited by Septentrionalis; July 31, 2021 at 10:50 AM.

  18. #118

    Default Re: Venus vs. Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    That is a very weak analogy. There are none of the feasibility issues about colonizing other continents. There is typically animals to be hunted and food to be grown in the destination, and sailing technology has been around for a long time. As soon as Columbus learned of the New World, there was no argumenting against colonization but an actual race by European powers to colonize the new continent. The Norse had settled in Greenland and Newfoundland way before that in their primitive ships. And before that, the Polynesians, originating from Taiwan, had spread all around the Pacific, including to Easter Island that is close to Americas.

    But space is a hostile place and doing anything there is a huge and expensive undertaking. The Antarctica is not nearly as hostile and expensive, but where are the thriving cities of Antarctica now, 200 years after its discovery? Do people have no vision and desire of greatness? Or is it just not that feasible to eke out a living in that cold, snowy desert?
    Traversing oceans between continents was quite dangerous, so was dealing with aboriginal populations, depending where you went. Then we had new diseases, lack of knowledge with what lies ahead, etc.
    Nobody ever had it easy in history and it only seems so from ivory tower of living in current times.
    As far as naysaying to space exploration goes, it mainly comes down to fiscal concerns, which as I pointed out is something that can be easily resolved by cutting out less important spending.

  19. #119
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Venus vs. Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Traversing oceans between continents was quite dangerous, so was dealing with aboriginal populations, depending where you went. Then we had new diseases, lack of knowledge with what lies ahead, etc.
    Nobody ever had it easy in history and it only seems so from ivory tower of living in current times.
    As far as naysaying to space exploration goes, it mainly comes down to fiscal concerns, which as I pointed out is something that can be easily resolved by cutting out less important spending.
    Sorry HH, Septentrionalis is more or less in the right here. Outside of LEO space stations t research manned space flight and attempts at artificial gravity simulation there is little reason to put people in space. I suppose it the foibles of the uber wealthy produce jobs and internships and investment in launch technology that is I guess OK because governments do not seem willing to tax said super wealth folk. The think Is I all for exploration but right now its silly to do it humans and unless we find say a almost planetary core full of rare metals and such in the asteroid belt there is no reason to send humans scampering out there.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  20. #120

    Default Re: Venus vs. Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Sorry HH, Septentrionalis is more or less in the right here. Outside of LEO space stations t research manned space flight and attempts at artificial gravity simulation there is little reason to put people in space. I suppose it the foibles of the uber wealthy produce jobs and internships and investment in launch technology that is I guess OK because governments do not seem willing to tax said super wealth folk. The think Is I all for exploration but right now its silly to do it humans and unless we find say a almost planetary core full of rare metals and such in the asteroid belt there is no reason to send humans scampering out there.
    There are plenty of reasons to commit to space exploration.
    It doesn't mean we should send out Warhammer-style pioneer fleets right away.
    We need to develop intergalactic travel and terraforming technologies to eventually provide more living space for humanity.
    We need to research orbital mining and industry-building to eventually look into moving mining most ecologically harmful mining and industries off planet to alleviate their environmental impact.
    This is something that won't yield results in our lifetime, but over a longer period of time it will.
    At this stage it does require a lot of funding, and our governments clearly demonstrate their spending abilities quite well.
    I guess it all comes down to intellectual and moral inferiority of modern ruling class, that simply refuses to care about what happens after they die, so they don't see any "point" into spending money they could otherwise spend on themselves or on cementing their wealth and power.

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