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Thread: Study of Colombus' DNA

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    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Study of Colombus' DNA

    Granada University: Study of Christopher Columbus' DNA set - El País-English version

    Granada University and several international laboratories will analyze the explorer’s remains to determine if he was from Italy, Portugal or a region of Spain.

    Thanks to the most advanced genetic technology available, one of the greatest historical enigmas of all time may be solved next October: where Christopher Columbus, the explorer credited with the discovery of America, was born. An investigation undertaken by Granada University, requiring the collaboration of laboratories in Granada, Florence, Rome, Texas and Mexico, will determine his place of birth based on a genetic analysis of the navigator’s bones and a comparison with those thought to belong to his family members. The remains have been sent for analysis to be carried out by the university itself and different European and US laboratories.

    To avoid any suspicion of foul play should it be proved that the explorer was not from the Italian city of Genoa, as has generally been believed until now, Italy is also involved.
    The results will be made public in October in a documentary directed by Regis Francisco López, produced by Spain’s public broadcaster, RTVE.

    The theory most widely accepted by historians states that Columbus was born in Genoa in northern Italy in 1451 to Giovanni Colombus and Giovanna Fontanarrosa, a family of weavers. Various historical documents, such as his son Hernando Columbus’ will, confirm this. Doubts persist, however, since Columbus himself never wrote a word in Italian, using instead Valencian, Mallorcan, Galician and Portuguese. According to a statement from the researchers at Granada University, “this is the most ambitious scientific research yet on Columbus’ origins and compiles the work developed by the different theses that have emerged so far and that have possible genetic information to contrast. Valencia, Portugal, Galicia, Navarre and Mallorca will be some of the possibilities analyzed.”

    International congress

    Last week, international authors arrived in Granada to discuss their theories about Columbus’ origins and deliver the material they have collected so far, including documentary sources, historical records and even genetic remains to Professor Lorente. Francesc Albardaner i Llorens, member of the Catalan Society of Historical Studies, believes Columbus was born in Valencia into a family of converted Jews. According to this historian, Columbus’ father was an emigrant who arrived in Valencia from Liguria in Italy and married a woman from Valencia. Due to being the son of a mixed marriage, he could present himself as Genoese, as well as a naturalized subject of the Crown of Aragon,” says Albardaner i Llorens.

    Fernando Branco, a professor at Lisbon University, believes that the explorer was Portuguese. According to Branco, an honorary member of the Academy of Portuguese History, Columbus’s real name was Pedro Ataíde and he was a corsair or privateer who fled to Castile in 1485. Meanwhile, historians José and Antonio Mattos e Silva maintain that he was the bastard son of the Portuguese princess, Leonor de Aviz. A third theory involving Portugal is proposed by the researcher Carlos Evaristo, who insists that, in reality, Columbus was the son of Ferdinand, the duke of Visue and Beja, and Isabel Gonçalves, a woman of Jewish descent. According to this version, Columbus would have been called Salvador Fernandes Zarco, and been born in the town of Cuba, in Portugal’s Alentejo region. As an adult, he became a captain and spied on Castile on behalf of King John II of Portugal. The author describes Columbus as a kind of “007 agent” for Spain’s neighbor.

    On the other hand, the doctor José Mari Ercilla claims that the explorer was born in the Spanish region of Navarre, in the town of Ainza, and that he carried the HLA-B27 antigen, characteristic of the Cagots, a marginalized minority living between Spain and France. He says that only in Navarre and America are there towns called Ainza. “This name has not existed in any other part of the world except in America after it was discovered by Columbus. It’s a place name that only someone born there could know because the Columbus family, according to the Navarre royal censuses, inhabited this village of only five houses.”

    Meanwhile, Gabriel Verd Martorell, president of the Christopher Columbus Cultural Association, maintains that Columbus was the son of Charles, prince of Viana, who was the brother of Ferdinand II of Aragón, and of Margalida Colom from Mallorca. According to this historian, Columbus was born in Felanitx in Mallorca, in 1460, and named an island he discovered in 1498 off the Venezuelan coast Margarita as a tribute to his mother.

    However, Eduardo Esteban Meruéndano, president of the Galician Christopher Columbus Association, Celso García de la Riega, believes Columbus hailed from Galicia.

    But Alfonso C. Sanz Núñez, associate professor in the Department of Regional Geographic Analysis at Madrid’s Complutense University, claims that the explorer was born in Espinosa de Henares in Guadalajara on June 18, 1435, and is buried in Cogulludo in Guadalajara. He says Columbus was the grandson of Diego Hurtado de Mendoza, an admiral of Castile and senior officer of the king in the navy, and the son of Aldonza de Mendoza, duchess of Arjona. According to Sanz Núñez, when his mother died, she left him 13,000 maravedies – old Spanish currency, one of which would be equivalent to around €16 today – but this inheritance was stolen by his uncle, the marquis of Santillana. Given his lineage, the Catholic Monarchs, Queen Isabella I of Castile and King Ferdinand I named Columbus “Admiral of the Ocean Sea.”

    Their findings are to be made public in October- the Hispanic day is always celebrated on October 12th.

    Hispanic Day, a celebration of what?
    The USA celebrates Columbus Day on the second Monday of October, but several US states do not recognise the day at all. Others have replaced Columbus Day, which became a public holiday in the US in 1937, with Indigenous Peoples Day, a counter-celebration commemorating the history of Native American peoples.
    ...The Hispanic Day has caused a cascade of reactions from all political parties and institutions over the last few years, but the majority of the country respects the day as one of the most important in Spanish history.
    -------------------------------

    From an historical perspective- leaving politics aside-what we know so far about the real Christopher Columbus?
    The History of the United States contains the immortal lines,
    In fourteen hundred and ninety-two,
    Columbus sailed the Ocean Blue”

    The great Atlantic breakthrough can be identified with three voyages

    1. Columbus’s Atlantic crossing of 1493 (the earlier crossing in 1492 has a secondary importance, because the outward route was unsisfactory and never tried again)
    2. John Cabot’s voyage from Bristol to Newfoundland in 1496 created an open approach to North America.
    3. Vasco’s da Gama voyage to India in 1497. At the end of the decade, Pedro Álvares Cabral reached the the meridian of the the Brazil current which diminished the danger of navigation.

    The effect of the three voyages in combination was to crack the code of the Atlantic wind system, the ocean become a means of access to empires and trades, and little in the subsequent history of the world can be properly understood in this context: it was a single decade of achievement, of the power of projection of Western European seafaring.

    Armesto writes, in “1492, The Year Our World Began”,
    In a way, the prophets of Christendom who predicted that the world would end in 1942 were right. The apocalypse was postponed, bu the events of the year ended the world with which people of the time were familiar and launched a new look for the planet, more “modern”, if you like-more familiar, that is, to us than it would have been to people of the Middle Ages or antiquity.The world the prophets knew vanished, and a new world, the world we are in, began to take shape
    ---------
    There is no doubt that a major turning point in Columbus’ life happened when he moved from Genoa to Portugal in 1476, where he married, lived, and learned his limited (?) knowledge of seafaring, according to the consensus of leading academic scholars.
    Genoese/Spanish/Portuguese/Polish/Croate, Martian or Chinese, was Columbus a clumsy navigator or one of the most skilled and experienced Genoese navigators? This is the enduring enigma. Please discuss.

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    Last edited by alhoon; May 28, 2021 at 05:26 AM.
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    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Columbus Was Chinese

    Clumsy navigator who got lucky. He had no idea where he was going, if you look at his charts, no idea where he landed. It was physically impossible for him to not landing in the americas given that it literally stretches almost from pole to pole.

    He's to be appreciated for the courage to go west, after all the size of the planet was already known and there was no guarantee there would be anything but ocean from Spain to China. But a skilled navigator, he was not.
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    Default Re: Columbus Was Chinese

    He's to be appreciated for the courage to go west, after all the size of the planet was already known and there was no guarantee there would be anything but ocean from Spain to China. But a skilled navigator, he was not.
    Indeed. His logs show he was a very good at dead reckoning but fantastically bad at adducing where he was my any other means. Willfully picking a small size of the planet a figure that was not (rightfully) accepted. That seems to means he was either brave or stupid and betting maybe if you believe the putty people occasionally offer up that somehow he was convinced via some distant rumors from basque north sea fisherman or Norse bits of data about Vineland that he somehow came across he was certain there was in that mashup hope he was not sailing to his and his crew's death and there was something before China to hit. His Instance that he call people Indians however belays that.
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    B. W.'s Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Columbus Was Chinese

    Columbus was born and raised in Portugal near a small town named "Cuba".

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    Default Re: Columbus Was Chinese

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Clumsy navigator who got lucky. He had no idea where he was going, if you look at his charts, no idea where he landed. It was physically impossible for him to not landing in the americas given that it literally stretches almost from pole to pole.

    He's to be appreciated for the courage to go west, after all the size of the planet was already known and there was no guarantee there would be anything but ocean from Spain to China. But a skilled navigator, he was not.
    He also gets a huge point for being Christian - an undeniable part of his legacy.
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    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Columbus Was Chinese

    Quote Originally Posted by B. W. View Post
    Columbus was born and raised in Portugal near a small town named "Cuba".
    Columbus was raised near Cuba City, Wisconsin.
    ---
    Seriously now, this guy has a different theory
    The Controversial Skill of Columbus as a Navigator
    CONCLUSION. This study has presented viable evidence from reliable sources that Columbus was one of the most skilled and experienced of the respected Genoese captains and navigators in Europe during his lifetime. The consensus of leading academic Columbus scholars that documented evidence picture Columbus as an unlettered wool and wine merchant from Genoa who learned his limited knowledge of seafaring from serving as a minor crew member or passenger on Portuguese voyages reveals a serious lack of realistic, factual, and working knowledge of fifteenth and sixteenth century Maritime history.
    Last edited by Ludicus; May 27, 2021 at 03:28 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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    B. W.'s Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Columbus Was Chinese

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Columbus was raised near Cuba City, Wisconsin.
    ---
    Seriously now, this guy has a different theory
    The Controversial Skill of Columbus as a Navigator
    You may find this documentary interesting:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0yoVsZfypQ

    If Columbus was from Genoa why did he name all the islands around Cuba after cities surrounding the Portuguese town of Cuba?

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    Default Re: Columbus Was Chinese

    Everyone knows Columbus wasn’t Portuguese.

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    Default Re: Columbus Was Chinese

    Columbus was Andorran.
    Optio, Legio I Latina

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    Default Re: Columbus Was Chinese

    Quote Originally Posted by B. W. View Post
    You may find this documentary interesting:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0yoVsZfypQ

    If Columbus was from Genoa why did he name all the islands around Cuba after cities surrounding the Portuguese town of Cuba?
    Columbus had spent many years living in Portugal, and had not lived in Italy since his youth. Plus he more used to writing in Portuguese that Genoese. Perhaps Columbus only learned to write when he moved to Portuguese regions. He might have found it easier to write the Portuguese names than Italian, or perhaps even Spanish. He might not have even known how to write down the Italian names.

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    Default Re: Study of Colombus' DNA

    Any clear sighted analysis of Columbus' life shows, as Sabatini stated 100 years ago, Columbus was 1/4 Muslim Iberian, 1/4 Toledan, 1/2 Genovese. Why he was chosen to lead the voyages to the west. Trauma of the generational occupation and the crusades weighed heavy on the Spanish Court. They were mostly sent because of fear of the Muslim presence in the new world (which wasn't).

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Study of Colombus' DNA

    Seriously now, this guy has a different theory
    The Controversial Skill of Columbus as a Navigator
    He is leaning pretty hard. I really prefer he include the source quotes untranslated as well as his translation that he is quoted statements out of letters and memoirs and without the constant insertions of (sometimes double layered) explanation and elaboration in line (rather as notes). Not my particular area of hobby or interest or some formal training but a paper on classical history written that way would not impress me. The Handwavium used on the Iceland trip is a problem given we are otherwise expected to believe the maximum level of CCs piloting or captaining in other circumstances. Its earlie but I guessing there is a bit hand wave also on his implication that captain implies navigator again I not interested in doing the research but I suspect that implication is not altogether accurate.
    Last edited by conon394; May 29, 2021 at 07:09 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

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    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Study of Colombus' DNA

    I thought it was obvious that he was a crappy navigator who misjudged the size of the Earth, but that he was also simply Genoese, i.e. Italian, not Portuguese or Spanish. Him marrying a woman native to the Iberian peninsula and having kids with her is another issue. I guess he can also be credited with kickstarting the Columbian Exchange. Aside from that he was a brutal governor even for the standards of the Spanish crown when they had him seized and brought back to Spain in chains.

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    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Study of Colombus' DNA

    Either way, what purpose does a study of his DNA fulfil?
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    Default Re: Study of Colombus' DNA

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    Either way, what purpose does a study of his DNA fulfil?
    The purpose is to learn more about him.

    That was kind of a weird question. Are you looking for practical applications of the study of historical individuals?
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  17. #17

    Default Re: Study of Colombus' DNA

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    The purpose is to learn more about him.

    That was kind of a weird question. Are you looking for practical applications of the study of historical individuals?
    But is DNA study accurate enough to determine whether Columbus was Genoese, Portuguese?

    I doubt the DNA study can answer the question of Columbus origin. If you didn't find Jewish DNA markers, it would still not rule Jewish ancestry a couple generations back. And it is most unlikely DNA could pinpoint Columbus to any particular city.

    If Columbus DNA study can't answer the question of his origin, and I don't think it can, then what is the point if it

    If you did a DNA study on George III, you would decide he wa German, not English, based only on the DNA study. But George III spoke English and lived almost all his life in Britain.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Study of Colombus' DNA

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    But is DNA study accurate enough to determine whether Columbus was Genoese, Portuguese?

    I doubt the DNA study can answer the question of Columbus origin. If you didn't find Jewish DNA markers, it would still not rule Jewish ancestry a couple generations back. And it is most unlikely DNA could pinpoint Columbus to any particular city.

    If Columbus DNA study can't answer the question of his origin, and I don't think it can, then what is the point if it

    If you did a DNA study on George III, you would decide he wa German, not English, based only on the DNA study. But George III spoke English and lived almost all his life in Britain.
    DNA can't determine where someone grew up, as you correctly point out, but they will certainly be able to tell what general regional population each of Columbus' segments of DNA came from. For example, Western Iberia or Northern Italy. It's possible that those segments won't all be from the same regional population, but they will be able to tell (by the segment length) which came from more recent vs more distant ancestors. If they look, they will be able to roughly determine family relationships between Columbus and anyone living today or in the past (whose DNA is available). They should definitely be able to detect Jewish ancestry as long as his most recent Jewish ancestor was not further than six or seven generations back. Further back than that, it's luck of the draw if any particular segment is present. The exception would be if he has Jewish ancestry along a direct maternal or paternal lineage which can be detectable as far back as there have been Jews. Columbus lived in a time frame from which there are massive databases of of relevant IBD segments, because they are still recognizable in people alive today. That makes the task much easier.

    Besides his ethnic/regional ancestry, there could be other interesting discoveries, since we now know the polymorphisms associated with a lot of traits.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  19. #19
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    Default Re: Study of Colombus' DNA

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    Either way, what purpose does a study of his DNA fulfil?
    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    The purpose is to learn more about him.

    That was kind of a weird question. Are you looking for practical applications of the study of historical individuals?
    I think old mate's pointing out that a serious scientific methodology is being applied in the name of a p***ing contest. Nothing to stop intelligent individuals (or even me) from using the studies for more worthwhile ends but this looks like an Iberian nationalist bit of fluff. I bet when they have the panel discussion on the results the paella would be flying on minutes, they'll be releasing bulls into the auditorium and everything.

    The wider point is a West Mediterranean individual (obviously not a "purebred" because aside from the Ptolemies and the Hapsburgs who is?) with some nautical experience (if not a particularly high level of skill) undertook a commission that was probably going to happen with or without them. Their specific DNA is irrelevant in this soft-pinko academic paradigm.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Study of Colombus' DNA

    Ah, the pinkos are at it again.
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