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Thread: Hoplite Phalanx/Disciplined Formation Useless?

  1. #1
    Nikron's Avatar Senator
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    Default Hoplite Phalanx/Disciplined Formation Useless?

    Hi DEI Team,

    Since I always play factions with pike units, I never realized how putting Roman units in the Disciplined Formation or hoplites in phalanx formation was useless.

    I kept testing it over and over again and the moment I removed the formation they immediately start winning an otherwise losing slow battle.

    I think Roman and hoplite units need to be normally weak and received a huge boost in attack and defense once in formation, not the other way around.

    It's visually or aesthetically worse when you see a disorganized Massalian hoplite winning easily against a Celtic sword unit which was winning the battle up until the point I decided to remove the phalanx formation just to test it.

    What do you guys think?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Hoplite Phalanx/Disciplined Formation Useless?

    These formations seem strong to me.
    The thing is using these formation your units are only stronger in the front, so dont let the enemy wrap around your units. Make a battle line. Then they will be able to beat most units in the game except pike phalanx.
    Last edited by Leminh1988; May 23, 2021 at 11:08 PM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Hoplite Phalanx/Disciplined Formation Useless?

    The disciplined formation seems to be there to keep your unit alive longer. It's not good for attacking.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Hoplite Phalanx/Disciplined Formation Useless?

    Okay I think some things are going on here

    1) Disciplined formation makes the unit into a holding unit, with good frontline defence but lower attack

    2) A lot of times it can be hard to miss that the unit is actually being wrapped around or attack on the sides. There is a huge difference in that, especially in DeI's longer drawn out fights.
    It can be hard to catch at a glance but one can have a few, seemingly ''innocent'', enemy units from the enemy formation across be on the side of ones unit but during the battle keeps chopping down soldiers from the side.

    3) Sometimes making a unit a holding unit can be worse because your unit would kill the enemy unit faster if it is kept in normal mode, thus also taking less hits.


    So it has to be used tactically, it isn't an ability that makes the unit straight up better. It helps in certain scenarios. Like I love using disciplined formation, when I can form a stable and tight front-line with it and have a strong flanking force. I do not use it if I am meeting a light unit that I can just let my legionaries slaughter. But I have definitely used disciplined formation wrong at times, leaving an easy fight to be drawn out as my flanking force might have taken a lot of time.
    Last edited by userstupidname; May 24, 2021 at 11:59 AM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Hoplite Phalanx/Disciplined Formation Useless?

    You probably already know this since you play pike factions, but just in case, if you want a formation unit to do an advancing attack into an enemy unit you need to double click the unit that you want to attack. And like others have said always reposition your units so that they present a solid front to the enemy: you may need to do it several times per battle. This is the major difference between units in versus out of formation. Out of formation they will automatically wrap around the enemy when attacking, but in formation they stay put and you have to manually make sure that they are positioned correctly.

  6. #6
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    Default Re: Hoplite Phalanx/Disciplined Formation Useless?

    I use formations to hold the line, they are pretty good but when in close quarters sometimes to speed up the game I do as you do!

  7. #7
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Hoplite Phalanx/Disciplined Formation Useless?

    Hoplite phalanx is literally regared as OP in nearly all feedback we get. People post screens where even militia hoplites rack up 600+ kills.

    Just learn how to use them.
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  8. #8
    Nikron's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Hoplite Phalanx/Disciplined Formation Useless?

    After reading all your posts I did a little test because I even started to doubt myself.

    1. Legionarii (normal formation) vs Massaloi Epilektoi Hoplitai (phalanx formation) - Legionaries having the upper hand the entire time, with 7-10% less casualties at the beginning, then the tide turns slowly to 3-5% less casualties until they're in almost equal numbers at 100 soldiers left (out of 200 total), when the Epilektoi finally wins by routing them, 84 Epilektoi left alive vs I think 78 Legionaries. Consider that the Epilektoi were a General Unit and I left the Roman Cavalry general far.

    2. Legionarii (disciplined formation) vs Massaloi Epilektoi Hoplitai (phalanx formation) - Easy Epilektoi win, with 154 Epilektoi alive.

    3. Legionarii (normal formation) vs Massaloi Epilektoi Hoplitai (normal formation) - Again, Epilektoi win, with 144 Epilektoi alive.

    Margin of error: Only the general's death because I can't test it against a human player, but still self explanatory as a test.

    In my test I used the Epilektoi, but in my Ceasar in Gaul campaign I was facing mostly normal Massaloi Hoplitai and they were decimating my Legionaries to the point I had to leave Massalia alone for 30 turns until I discovered that my Legionaries were doing so great against Gauls and Iberians without the formation, and I returned back to Massalia and easily captured it by killing off their hoplites with ease.

    And yes, I was holding the line as I played many city defense battles where the Legionaries were suffering unnecessary casualties by the Gauls. There was no way they could surround my units in the narrow streets, it was entirely a frontal battle.

    Obviously I prefer the Disciplined Formation because it's so aesthetically pleasing and brings back memories of HBO's Rome.

    I might personally mod the formation when I have time (if I remember correctly it's dylans_10 and dylans_11 in PFM) to increase the formations boost in order to get the same results as without it but with the aesthetic effect of it.

    Edit: I did another quick test with 2 general units, Massaloi Epilektoi as well as Massaloi Hoplitai vs Celtic Argoi and normal formation of the Hoplitai where they use swords fared slightly better against the Argoi.
    Last edited by Nikron; May 24, 2021 at 09:18 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Hoplite Phalanx/Disciplined Formation Useless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikron View Post
    After reading all your posts I did a little test because I even started to doubt myself.

    1. Legionarii (normal formation) vs Massaloi Epilektoi Hoplitai (phalanx formation) - Legionaries having the upper hand the entire time, with 7-10% less casualties at the beginning, then the tide turns slowly to 3-5% less casualties until they're in almost equal numbers at 100 soldiers left (out of 200 total), when the Epilektoi finally wins by routing them, 84 Epilektoi left alive vs I think 78 Legionaries. Consider that the Epilektoi were a General Unit and I left the Roman Cavalry general far.

    2. Legionarii (disciplined formation) vs Massaloi Epilektoi Hoplitai (phalanx formation) - Easy Epilektoi win, with 154 Epilektoi alive.

    3. Legionarii (normal formation) vs Massaloi Epilektoi Hoplitai (normal formation) - Again, Epilektoi win, with 144 Epilektoi alive.

    Margin of error: Only the general's death because I can't test it against a human player, but still self explanatory as a test.

    In my test I used the Epilektoi, but in my Ceasar in Gaul campaign I was facing mostly normal Massaloi Hoplitai and they were decimating my Legionaries to the point I had to leave Massalia alone for 30 turns until I discovered that my Legionaries were doing so great against Gauls and Iberians without the formation, and I returned back to Massalia and easily captured it by killing off their hoplites with ease.

    And yes, I was holding the line as I played many city defense battles where the Legionaries were suffering unnecessary casualties by the Gauls. There was no way they could surround my units in the narrow streets, it was entirely a frontal battle.

    Obviously I prefer the Disciplined Formation because it's so aesthetically pleasing and brings back memories of HBO's Rome.

    I might personally mod the formation when I have time (if I remember correctly it's dylans_10 and dylans_11 in PFM) to increase the formations boost in order to get the same results as without it but with the aesthetic effect of it.
    I see why you think discipline formation is weak now. Because you use it against hoplites phalanx. The hoplites formation has the same knock back mechanics as pike phalanx formation, so if you use disciplined formation against them your unit actually perform worse, since one guy get knocked back, the whole formation get knocked back.
    Disciplined formation is good vs everything else who dont have a formation.

  10. #10
    Nikron's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Hoplite Phalanx/Disciplined Formation Useless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leminh1988 View Post
    I see why you think discipline formation is weak now. Because you use it against hoplites phalanx. The hoplites formation has the same knock back mechanics as pike phalanx formation, so if you use disciplined formation against them your unit actually perform worst, since one guy get knocked back, the whole formation get knocked back.
    Disciplined formation is good vs everything else who dont have a formation.
    Sorry if my posts weren't very detailed and clear. I'm a total war player since 2004, I'd never make such beginners mistakes by frontally attacking hoplites and pikes. Always rear and side attacks (not on the side of their shield if possible) with both melee and missile units, as well as continuous cavalry charges from behind.

    I actually realized the weakness of the disciplined formation against Celts in CiG, then remembered how badly my legionaries were decimated also against Massalia few turns earlier.

    Edit: I did a Cohors Praetoria vs Argoi, without the disciplined formation the Argoi won with 104 Argoi left alive, whereas with disciplined formation the Praetorians won with 105 men alive the first time and around 120 alive the second time.

    I was wrong about something it seems. Still strange why I had that experience in massive battles.
    Last edited by Nikron; May 24, 2021 at 09:56 PM.

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    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Hoplite Phalanx/Disciplined Formation Useless?

    Disciplined Formation even has it stated in the tooltip that it should not be used vs phalanx.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Hoplite Phalanx/Disciplined Formation Useless?

    In a big messy battles I see Disciplined Formations as rather weakness, because in DF units get surrounded more often and they suffer different penalties. What is interesting is that in DF your units can hold longer against phalanx units... but phalanx units are actually the ones who need to be surrounded and you can do it with legionaries. So to me DF has very niche use.
    Last edited by Vardano; May 25, 2021 at 03:07 AM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Hoplite Phalanx/Disciplined Formation Useless?

    The way to use Roman infantry effectively is switching between their formations. Every formations have its usefulness in different situation. Even square formation has its use too. Dont just enable a formation and leave them there. Enable it, disable it, reorganize your troops, adapt to the situation.
    The Roman infantry strength is their versatile, not brute force.
    Last edited by Leminh1988; May 25, 2021 at 04:46 AM.

  14. #14
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    Default Re: Hoplite Phalanx/Disciplined Formation Useless?

    In history too it happened think of the 300 Thebans.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Hoplite Phalanx/Disciplined Formation Useless?

    Who plays with Romans anyway? I personally love to leave them alive till the end of campaigns and finish those shiny boys as a final dessert, in formation or not.

  16. #16
    Summary's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Hoplite Phalanx/Disciplined Formation Useless?

    I think the hoplitai phalanxes are very strong, even stronger than phalangitai. Frontally. This makes no sense, but it is what it is. As far as disciplined formation for Roman legionaries are concerned, I never bothered using it, until I found out some niche situations where it might be helpful as outlined in this thread and will be definitely revisiting my use of the formation in my new campaign as Rome.

    For hoplitai you want to stretch them as thinly as possible so that they never get flanked, I find forming my frontline in a wedge formation as used by Alexander works best, since the enemy finds it hard to wrap around your frontline when you are formed as a wedge (it is almost a semi circular formation) I try my best to avoid sharp turns in my formation that could expose the flanks of a phalanx unit. I gradually increase the angle as I move outwards. My center 2-3 hoplitai are parallel (0 degrees) to the enemy, then the units to their immediate right and left are gradually inclined by about 20 degrees for every iteration. I tend to have 8 hoplitai units in my army, they are able to hold their own against a much larger force. This means that the outmost units of hoplitai are positioned at a 60 degree angle with respect to the front line. Since your center jets out in this formation, I find it best to use the most elite units in the front line as they have better defensive capabilities. Archers/slingers can sit comfortably in the pocket created behind the front line and attack enemy missiles, snipe a general or assist weaken the enemy cavalry, giving you a numerical advantage with cavalry. Lastly archers can switch to flaming shots, to compound morale penalties when you are in the hammer phase of combat, while the reduced damage also means that friendly fire will be minimized.

    End of the day, hoplitai aren't the damage dealers you're expecting and won't win the battle for you, but they can last long enough to allow the support units to win their engagements and then reinforce your center with cycle charges. Classical hammer and anvil tactics, except that your anvil is curved. Finally tip would be to analyze which flank of your frontline can be easily freed up as it is under less pressure, focus on routing the enemy here. For example if the enemy throws majority of their units in the center, then I try to free up the flanks with support cycle charges so that my now free flanks can wrap around the center.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Hoplite Phalanx/Disciplined Formation Useless?

    Had an interesting read in this thread.

    When playing as Roma I like to use the polka-dots formation, with medium gaps in-between cohorts, with 2 to 3 lines of heavy infantry and spearmen (I like to play 40 v 40 stacks and looooong battles), flanked by cav light and heavy, and some missile units. This one time that I was pinned and flanked I discovered the usefulness of Disciplined Formation, and boy did they tank the enemy advance long enough for me to break their own lines and make a counter-off, was a hell of a moment for me lol was literally losing the entire battle.

    The pikes were a different dynamic for me when I started a Macedonian campaign; had an infernal time keeping them all properly spaced while moving and despite the ultra unit size, I always ALWAYS get flanked no matter how I stretch my lines. This is where I started using a 2nd supporting stack army whenever I played Hellenic factions, and I used Hoplites as my flank guards-- I do not stretch them out thin on either flanks, I instead have them in thick formation and found out they can tank throughout the entire damn battle lol, leaving me free to micro my Pike phalanxes (which needs a lot of attention btw), hoplite phalanxes can even put a brick-wall stop to an enemy charge and push an entire opposing line if micro'd properly.

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