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Thread: The Warrior

  1. #41
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: The Warrior

    The old german knights with their "Ritterlichkeit" Codex were warrior their whole life. They do nothing else than training to ride and to fight on horse or foot or to hunt. They didn't work, but live from what their unfree peasants produce. And if there was no official war or crusade or their land was too poor to feast them, they declare their own wars against other knights or counts or archbischops or rich cities with their merchants.

    You can't compare them to professional soldiers or conscripts, who serve only for a certain time in an army.
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; June 21, 2021 at 08:45 AM.
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  2. #42
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Warrior

    To further that a good comparison is Xenophon. Now the Peloponnesian war and being on wrong political side lead into a fighting career for much of his life - as Soldier of Athens and than a mercenary for longer, but... than as soon as the chance came his what did become a author of history, politics, memoirs, how too books on cavalry, economic analysis, etc. His view of war is that of a soldier and shares very much nothing my cited Bertran. There is no place in Bertran's world to describe the desperate work to keep men with hypothermia marching so they don't stop and just sit down and die. Or even care about the infantry at all. Or the fact that the army of the 10,000 acted as an effective marching democracy. He (Xenophon) mentions the bravery of soldiers and respects courage but I think he would have walked out of one Bertran's performative pieces.
    Last edited by conon394; June 21, 2021 at 01:34 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  3. #43
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Warrior

    Morticia lunia Bruti,

    Here in Britain once a guy or gal has served they go into a list of reservists so that if needed they can be recalled into action. In Israel that applies to most of its population being surrounded by many enemies who want to wipe them off the map. Would you really call an Arab taught this hatred of Israel from birth a warrior?

  4. #44
    Dismounted Feudal Knight's Avatar my horse for a unicode
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    Default Re: The Warrior

    One could be raised, recruited and practice/act as a warrior regardless of the perceived validity of why they are so.
    With great power, comes great chonky dragons to feed enemies of the state. --Targaryens?
    Spoiler for wait what dragons?



  5. #45
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: The Warrior

    Eventually they were all just a bunch of stinking, sweating and uneducated killers of people, who led miserable lives and died young, mostly. In order to serve greater lords with the sacrifice of their lives. Nay?

    You can't compare them to professional soldiers or conscripts, who serve only for a certain time in an army.
    It boils down to why one is a killer and for what kind of system, or so I think. Some people have to die to make up for the social disorder and economical inefficiency, throughout history.

  6. #46
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Warrior

    There's something in the make up of a male whereby from birth he has to get his own way and if that means learning to dominate others then so be it. In today's world we call that bullying and not surprisingly there's a great hue and cry to stamp it out in the home, in the classroom and in the workplace. In later life it finds itself in all forms of life and so even in the military it'll be found.

  7. #47
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Warrior

    There's something in the make up of a male whereby from birth he has to get his own way and if that means learning to dominate others then so be it
    Getting a bit sexist mate - say people rather.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  8. #48
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Warrior

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Getting a bit sexist mate - say people rather.
    conon394,

    Sorry ole fella but I was talking about males in particular because a warrior throughout history was primarily a male dominated occupation.

  9. #49

    Default Re: The Warrior

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Here in Britain once a guy or gal has served they go into a list of reservists so that if needed they can be recalled into action. In Israel that applies to most of its population being surrounded by many enemies who want to wipe them off the map. Would you really call an Arab taught this hatred of Israel from birth a warrior?
    And you just had to do this here, right? You had to start random ME ing, because GodJesus told you so, I guess?
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  10. #50
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Warrior

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromovnik View Post
    And you just had to do this here, right? You had to start random ME ing, because GodJesus told you so, I guess?
    Gromovnik,

    Do what here? Explain in plain language what I said that seems to upset you?

  11. #51
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: The Warrior

    >>>Sorry, double post. Forum is dreadfully slow, I get logged out all the time and things get confusing<<<

    Please delete.
    Last edited by swabian; June 28, 2021 at 03:30 PM.

  12. #52
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: The Warrior

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    There's something in the make up of a male whereby from birth he has to get his own way and if that means learning to dominate others then so be it.
    Yeah, manly men doing their thang harr! Historically it was of course almost only men who would go their way and even nowadays, dominating physically (i mean the serious kind, not venyl clad, lovely dominatrixes) is by and large the job of men, no doubt! I for one don't take any offense. However, schoolgirls can be bullies as well and of course women could be bosses over men since times before even you were born. Then again, being a superior at the working place is not at all bullying and bully qualities are actually detrimental to leadership in pretty much all professions.

    What I meant (and what you apparently missed) is that knights were kinda screwed in their role as the landowning warrior caste between peasantry and craftsmen on the one side and true nobility on the other. Sure they had more power than the population completely outside of nobility, but I actually doubt their lives were so enviable compared to wealthier artisans and even wealthier peasants in the late middle ages.

    Maybe someone with more knowledge could shed light on that, I for one would certainly be interested!

    My suspicion is that knights tended to have short lives due to their violent occupation while they were just as likely to die from disease as anyone else, for example. Did they really have better lives in terms of comfort and lifespan? Of course I'm talking about knights during an age when they still had a military role.

    And of course I was wrong about the "uneducated" part, they were certainly by and large more educated than the peasantry. Nevermind that, I just made a hasty comment whilst being half asleep.

    Off-topic:
    In today's world we call that bullying and not surprisingly there's a great hue and cry to stamp it out in the home, in the classroom and in the workplace. In later life it finds itself in all forms of life and so even in the military it'll be found.
    I think that's total hogwash on many levels. The few most important:

    Modern day bullies have nothing to do with medieval knights and don't even have much to do with modern soldiery. 'Bullyism' prior to military service is completely irrelevant and is actually harshly frowned upon as a menace to soldierly comradeship. I know, of course, because I was a soldier myself (not a veteranl, though).
    In fact, the "stamping it out", as you say, at the workplace does absolutely apply to the military professions as well; and schoolyard bullies really are not more likely to become military or martial tough guys later on in life. As a matter of fact, physical prowess during childhood and the teenage years does not result overly often in 'bullyism' (if that is a world lol), if it does correllate at all. At least i really doubt it (also remember the girl-bullies)!

    And this leads to my last remark for now which is on-topic again: Knights were also not better knights if they were also bullies during childhood, at least not by a large margin. I think the same applies as above.

  13. #53
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Warrior

    swabian,

    If only knights were warriors then back in those days in comparison to the general male population there were very few. The insertion of bullyism comes about by the very nature of man and it begins in the family and comes without training of any sort. To become a warrior though is quite another matter. For example the American Indian males were called warriors regardless of status in the tribe. A man or woman can be trained to become a warrior and it's in this class that wars are won and lost. Most of these people were probably never the bullying type yet if possible they could tell us a lot about the bullies of their day. You see bullying is about power and those that are already powerful in wealth and status have in their family one that will look down on others as well as throw his or her weight about. If knights were qualified to be knighted usually it was from their battlefield experiences as well as their power within an army but does that make them alone a warrior? No, it does not for it forgets all the men and women who gave that guy the prominance to be knighted. These were the real warriors.

  14. #54
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Warrior

    Maybe someone with more knowledge could shed light on that, I for one would certainly be interested!

    Check my post #40 for a link to very good deep dive by a historian with even more links if you want really dive in.

    My suspicion is that knights tended to have short lives due to their violent occupation while they were just as likely to die from disease as anyone else, for example. Did they really have better lives in terms of comfort and lifespan? Of course I'm talking about knights during an age when they still had a military role.
    Actually likely pretty good thay where on horse and well protected and of course always had the expectation of being ransomed if taken captive. Also while I will not say Medieval medical care was something I want to enjoy they start out well fed and if injured at least have attendants and food etc.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  15. #55
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Warrior

    I remember on a few occasions when either being involved or just watching a fight, it was surrounded in this case by screaming and shouting from the numbers who gathered round to watch. For some I was their goodie and for others the baddie. If I won I was their warrior and without bragging I never lost a fight during my schooldays. When older and in the Army Cadet Corp. that changed as only once was I bettered and that in a return contest. My opponent getting on top of me because I was down refused to hit me simply because on our last fight I having got him down refused to hit him when I was on top. It was not unusual for outsiders to come into our area looking for trouble so it fell to my elder brothers and their friends to sort them out with me playing my part as well. We were just ordinary decent guys keeping our area safe and to my knowledge without the use of any weapons on our side. Our area had three cinemas, three dance halls, a snooker hall as well as an ice rink and with Hampden and Ibrox quite close we had a very busy neighbourhood. It was a good place to live and we never had to kill anyone.

  16. #56

    Default Re: The Warrior

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Gromovnik,

    Do what here? Explain in plain language what I said that seems to upset you?
    You know exactly what you did, but I'll indulge you. You tried to turn a random thread into a vehicle for sharing your xenophobic views about certain ethnicities.
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  17. #57
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Warrior

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromovnik View Post
    You know exactly what you did, but I'll indulge you. You tried to turn a random thread into a vehicle for sharing your xenophobic views about certain ethnicities.
    Gromovnik,

    Is this because I happened to mention Israel? What ethnicities are you talking about?

  18. #58
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Warrior

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    I remember on a few occasions when either being involved or just watching a fight, it was surrounded in this case by screaming and shouting from the numbers who gathered round to watch. For some I was their goodie and for others the baddie. If I won I was their warrior and without bragging I never lost a fight during my schooldays. When older and in the Army Cadet Corp. that changed as only once was I bettered and that in a return contest. My opponent getting on top of me because I was down refused to hit me simply because on our last fight I having got him down refused to hit him when I was on top. It was not unusual for outsiders to come into our area looking for trouble so it fell to my elder brothers and their friends to sort them out with me playing my part as well. We were just ordinary decent guys keeping our area safe and to my knowledge without the use of any weapons on our side. Our area had three cinemas, three dance halls, a snooker hall as well as an ice rink and with Hampden and Ibrox quite close we had a very busy neighbourhood. It was a good place to live and we never had to kill anyone.
    Taken together I grant you on line privilege to write what you will but none of that makes you a warrior. Just as being the designated defense man to drop the gloves on my team back in the day does me either. Neither youth fights nor protecting you community or team or such qualify. That is role take up one way or the other but it does not define you. A warrior I contend is somebody defined first to last by that role. You don't stop people from annoying your neigborhood, you go and do the same to theirs for gain and profit and acclaim.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  19. #59
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Warrior

    conon394,

    Where's the honour in doing to their folks what we stopped them doing to ours?

  20. #60
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Warrior

    Where's the honour in doing to their folks what we stopped them doing to ours?
    If you were a warrior you don't need to ask that question.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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