conon394,
" You don't stop people from annoying your neigborhood, you go and do the same to theirs for gain and profit and acclaim. " These are your words not mine.
conon394,
" You don't stop people from annoying your neigborhood, you go and do the same to theirs for gain and profit and acclaim. " These are your words not mine.
IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites
'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'
But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.
Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.
conon394,
So, our fathers and forefathers were not warriors just because they sought no gain other than to defend our liberties and freedom? I mean what you are implying is that our enemies were the warriors, not us, because they wanted to dominate and rule us.
They were soldiers and there is a difference in my opinion. If they were seeking nothing other than to defend, if war was not the only thing that defined them than yes they were nor warriors. That is not a slight nor saying a warrior is better than a soldier. Its a Soldier who is defined by what he or she defends and also the rest of their life that life that is not war. A warrior is defined by war both the defense of their stuff and it is theirs and taking stuff because they can (and as Morticia Iunia Brut pointed out a few related hobbies to do while not fighting but are still just keeping you in shape to fight).So, our fathers and forefathers were not warriors just because they sought no gain other than to defend our liberties and freedom? I mean what you are implying is that our enemies were the warriors, not us, because they wanted to dominate and rule us
To call them warriors is if you mean soldiers in a modern wars say back say I dunno modern conscription a disservice actually. A warrior is comfortably wrapped in a warrior culture and validated by it. What you do in war is not something you don't talk about is to be idolized. I don't mean some big thing politicians say but at the ground level the killing and fighting. You live in a world with fellow warriors in a caste of one sort or another who have the same experiences and expectations. The Soldiers job is actually harder - you have to become a soldier and than also are expected to return or blend back into a civilian life surrounded by people who can't really understand your experience or don't care or just mouth platitudes or all of those.
Last edited by conon394; July 05, 2021 at 10:45 PM.
IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites
'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'
But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.
Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.
conon394,
Way back when Britain stood alone against the might of Nazi Germany a few boys took to the air to combat the Wermacht. I say boys because the bulk of them were boys not yet well into their twenties, never having been in combat before fighting what seemed impossible odds and yet they prevailed in the end bringing about one of the greatest wartime speeches ever made. " Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few " Are you telling me these boys were not warriors?
That is exactly what I said is in not? They were Soldiers.
IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites
'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'
But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.
Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.
Jesus was against violence, even in self-defence.
Optio, Legio I Latina
All good questions, but I think I'll focus on this one:
Ironically, I think the best pro-war movies are anti-war movies. Japanese WWII propaganda movies aimed to show precisely how harsh, gruelling, painful and terrible war actually is - and there's something in that. Someone once opined to me that "nothing wants me to be a crewmember aboard a German WWII U-boat as much as watching Das Boot". And insn't that just the thing, though? I know I'm not the only one who consumed war movies with an unquenchable thirst when I was a kid - A Bridge Too Far, Bridge On the River Kwai, Guns of Navarone, Zulu, Platoon, Full Metal Jacket etc. - which only fuelled my dreams of becoming a soldier. It's precisely the fact that war is hell which makes it attractive and glorious - certainly to those who have yet to experience it. And it is also what gives one reason to feel pride at having experienced it.
It's like rites of manhood: the pain is the whole point of it. Masculine ideals revolve strongly around the ability to endure hardship, and the worse the hardship the manlier the endeavour. When we watch anti-war movies, we may be repulsed at the horror the heroes experience - but are filled with admiration for them because of it. And that makes us want to be like them, to be admired the same way we admire them.
The only way a movie can truly be an anti-war movie, in my opinion, is if it tells a story from a civilian perspective - and the only times we see soldiers is when they loot and rape. A movie about soldiers who hate the fighting, however, is functionally a pro-war movie no matter how much it styles itself the contrary.
I'm not the one you want to quote those verses to. Although, since you have quoted them to me, I am compelled to point out that the NT is quite explicit on granting God a monopoly on violence. Nowhere is that more explicit than in Romans 12:14-21:
Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.
Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] says the Lord. On the contrary:
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
"Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord" is one of the most misquoted verses of the Bible. It is not a permission slip for Christians to visit vengeance upon enemies, but the exact opposite: it is God who says "vengeance is mine", meaning he's allowed - we are not.
In other words, whatever passage in the NT which describes God or his minions engaging in war and battle, it is not relevant to what God thinks of human warriors.
But, as I pointed out, in the OT he is extremely fond of them. Joshuah, Saul, David, Samson, Jepthah and others... all thoroughly despicable characters in their own way, and God loved them. If one is to assume that the god of the NT is the same as the god of the OT (and that is not an uncontroversial assumption), then they have some explaining to do, those who believe God doesn't love warriors.
Kissaki,
And when He lifted the cup He said, " This is the new Testament in my blood....." signifying something was to change quite dramatically from that time. The accounts that the Old Covenant warriors were given were cleared just as the sin of the New Covenant warriors was the moment Jesus cried, " It is finished...." from the cross. From that moment on God's people no longer had to seek their own revenge but leave that recompense at God's feet. Forgiveness and love became the standard on which men and women of God were to follow.
.
Kissaki,
The best I can answer to that is because even God's people couldn't stop sinning whereas when Jesus entered humanity the message became clearer. That is that the Law still stands and sin still had/has to be beaten and so the only way to achieve that is through the cleansing blood that Jesus Christ paid on the cross for all them for whom He died. Back under the Old Covenant certain people were accounted righteous before God, their accounts being cleared at the cross as well as them living and yet still to be born. So, forgiveness and love were just as viable way back then as it still is today.