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Thread: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

  1. #161
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    And it is a shame, how the Israelis have been let down by Trump, after they have provided immense strategic value to the USA since decades.
    By Trump? Is that a typo? Trump has been the most pro-Israel president since.. well, ever basically.

  2. #162
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    By Trump? Is that a typo? Trump has been the most pro-Israel president since.. well, ever basically.
    Ah, right. He threatened to withdraw all support for Palestinians, not Israelis.

    Ok... Why is it, that this crap has to be so complicated

    I pretty much turned my ears and eyes off regarding everything that the Trump Admin did. I was just too annoyed and distracted. I'm Sorry. That was a rather embarrassing blunder.

  3. #163

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    But it is. This accusation (Israeli Soldiers using Palestinians as meat shields) is at least a decade old and it has been shown to be utter nonsense over and over again. I actually remember it coming up every now and then and it's always being dismissed. That's not to say that the Israelis can do what they want, they have to abide by the (unspoken) rules (means no big escalations). But as long as they do, they can conquer. Slowly and steadily. The Israelis are harsh enough with the occupied people and it's no fault to have compassion with everyone (in general). If they ever really overdo it - and they can - then they have a huge problem, also among their own population. Netanyahu knows this and that's why he is the best choice for this fight.

    So, back to IDF meat-shield-strategy accusations, ugh... But this is simply nonsense. Only Hamas uses human shields and only Hamas has to do that in order to stay in the game. Hamas has to stir up as much hate against the Jews as possible and at the same time deliver "results" in order to stay in the game, because they are both, a mafia-like organization as well as terrorist paramilitaries, who would manipulate the population by any means available. they would even provoke Israeli attacks in order to legitimize themselves. The Israelis will just strike professionally with numbed indifference towards the Arabic hatred that is as relentless as it is impotent.
    It is what? The idea that Israeli forces used human shields is so nonsense that the Israeli Supreme Court had to explicitly ban it and the Israeli army tried to appeal it. What's nonsense is the levels you're willing to stoop your arguments to.


    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    Since I am only interested in understanding the nature of the conflict and not here to push an agenda, I consider bursting any bubble that I may have a favor. So thank you for the links.

    The things you posted are good to know, but they do not really change the perception that IDF using Jewish children to deter Hamas sounds ridiculous to a degree that Hamas using Arab children does not.

    What is your understanding of the matter? Does Hamas deliberately use hospitals, schools, and the like for firing rockets to either prevent retaliation or to reap the PR advantage of making IDF look like child killers?

    The point about Gaza being a small and densely populated area is a good one. It is difficult for either party to adhere to the high standards of warfare that would be easier in a more traditional battlefield scenario. Civilians are probably guaranteed to end up in the line of fire. Then again, soldiers operating in a densely populated area where any civilians (or people without a uniform or military formation) may turn out to be fighters is extremely stressful to soldiers, and I understand that they need some form of guarantee if searching for enemy fighters or munitions.
    No problem. I have found the comparison between Hamas and Israel, where it was treated as if Hamas militants were firing from the soldiers of kids while Israel puts kilometers of distance between any military presence from civilians, to be ridiculous. Pointless whitewashing as well as pointless vilification is extremely corruptive of any issue.

    Human shields issue has a number of different sides in Gaza. Overall, I don't think Hamas needs any deliberate action to create civilian casualties as Israeli Dahiya doctrine helps with that enough. On one side you have locations of rocket fire. On the other you have stockpiling of weapons and militants. No matter where you fire from in Gaza, you're likely to be close to some civilian structure. It's not like we're talking about a missile silo that could be discreetly built under a farm. They would of course try to find cover of buildings to fire small rockets from. If Israelis were left with the same devices they'd act in the same way. With mosques, schools, hospitals or clinics scattered around Gaza its not next to impossible to not fire in the proximity of one.

    Hamas turning such buildings into an HQ or stockpiling weapons in them makes even less sense. We are made to believe that every building Israel leveled was an Hamas HQ. How many HQs can there be?.. We are left to believe whatever Israel says. Then of course, we are supposed to think that Israel is so humane that they tap the building with a small explosive device first. Was the idea not to get the Hamas militants? Tap the building so that they can escape? Doesn't make sense. Though that too is a misleading propaganda as it looks more like a PR campaign than an actual practice. We are supposed to juggle between conflicting narratives coming from the Israelis alone. However, what justifies leveling a high-rise building? That's the Dahiya doctrine. There was a claim before that rockets were found in UN schools. It later turned out to be abandoned schools building. Nobody cared when that small details came out.

    Then there is the response. Israel is capable of precise ammunition of any caliber. Perhaps more than most countries in the world. Yet, they're using quite powerful payloads to strike these targets. That's how a single strike outside of a UN school managed to kill 15 while injuring 200 people. Keep in mind a lot of these strikes are not immediate responses by Israeli army. Israel chooses to strike these locations despite knowing full well that there are civilians.

    There is also the issue that Israel used this excuse to cover up any civilian casualty. There have been cases where they have used fabricated substances to claim a high value targets such as an hospital was made into a Hamas HQ despite evidence against it. They lied on a number of occasions.
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  4. #164
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    My advice: if you feel morally & intellectually exhausted, simply stay away and think some more. It did help me, for example. There is no point in throwing in your "2 cent" on a basis like this. I'm sorry, bud: those comparisons are nonsensical and yeah... kinda childish.
    Advice is not your gift.

  5. #165
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    Advice is not your gift.
    That one blunder doesn't nearly invalidate all what i said above. I actually did mean well: what you are trying to make believe to be a valid comparison is pure cringe.

  6. #166

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    This was the IDF policy banned by the Israeli High Court in 2002:

    The “Early Warning Procedure”1, colloquially referred to as “Neighbour Procedure”, is a means employed by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) to arrest wanted persons in the West Bank and to avoid civilian and military casualties. If the Israeli armed forces have knowledge of a wanted person’s presence in a house, according to the “Early Warning Procedure” the forces surround the house but do not enter it themselves. They then obtain the assistance of local Palestinians, i.e. a neighbour who is persuaded to enter the house. That person warns the occupants of the house, asks them to leave it and requests the wanted person to surrender to the Israeli forces. If the wanted person does not obey, the forces enter the house to arrest him. The general idea of the “Early Warning Procedure” is to find a volunteer, who is persuaded by words only, is not threatened, and has every possibility to refuse. The person in question may not be ordered to perform military tasks and may not assist in situations where he is liable to be injured.2 According to the IDF, the “Early Warning Procedure” avoids civilian casualties, i.e. of innocent house occupants, as well as injuries to soldiers who could be targeted while approaching the house. Furthermore, it gives the Israeli armed forces the possibility to operate in a manner attracting less attention: a loud warning by megaphone is not necessary to evacuate the house. Thus, attacks from the neighbourhood can be avoided.
    The IDF appealed the ban in 2005 based on the argument that participation was voluntary and saved lives of both soldiers and Palestinian civilians. The court denied the appeal on the grounds that participation could never actually be voluntary, since civilians would feel intimidated by any request.

    This is Haaretz's coverage of the ruling in 2005:

    Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz on Tuesday instructed senior Israel Defense Forces officers to ask the High Court of Justice to reconsider its ruling banning the army's use of Palestinians to deliver warnings to wanted men about impending arrest operations.

    Mofaz wishes to appeal against last week's High Court ruling which disallowed the use of "human shields", a procedure that the IDF called called an "early warning procedure." The Defense Minister says he will stand before the justices to present his arguments, which in his view justify continuing the use of human shields.

    The human rights group Adalah petitioned the High Court last week against the practice, in response to Operation Defensive Shield. The petition was based on reports that the IDF had forced Palestinians to search houses that were thought to be booby-trapped and to enter houses where wanted men were thought to be hiding, in advance of the soldiers who sought to arrest them. Some of the reports also accused soldiers of using Palestinians as human shields against attacks on IDF forces.

    In response, the IDF said that it had forbidden the use of Palestinians as human shields against attacks or as hostages, but did not rule out their use "in situations in which this aid would enable [the army] to refrain from military activity that could cause even greater damage to local residents, to soldiers and to property."

    Nevertheless, the media and human rights organization continued to report on cases in which the IDF had forced Palestinians to participate in operations to arrest wanted men - a procedure that the army termed "neighbor procedure." In August 2002, therefore, the court issued an interim injunction against this practice.
    I agree with the court's ruling on principle, in addition to the fact that liberal application of the policy in the field had led to several incidences of abuse.

    However, it seems reasonable to reject the notion that there is significant equivalency between this policy banned 19 years ago, and Hamas's grand strategy based around producing as many casualties among their own civilian population as possible.

    Last edited by sumskilz; May 31, 2021 at 12:27 AM. Reason: added link
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  7. #167
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Israel could just not drop bombs on children. Everyone gets that right?

  8. #168

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    Israel could just not drop bombs on children. Everyone gets that right?
    Especially seeing as the child slaughtering air campaign didn't even slow down the rocket spam. israel for some monstrous reason believes the only way to deal with the shame of looking incompetent against Hamas is to blow up civs.

  9. #169
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    You really think that if Israel purposefully targeted civilians the best it could do is kill 128 of them (according to UN) after hundreds of airstrikes? lol.

  10. #170

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    You really think that if Israel purposefully targeted civilians the best it could do is kill 128 of them (according to UN) after hundreds of airstrikes? lol.
    It's been obvious since Hezbollah defeated israel in 2006 that bombing civs doesn't stop rocket spam. But israel does it anyways despite it's known ineffectiveness. It doesn't stop the rockets but it pleases bloodthirsty israelis and their doomsday cult evangelical supporters.

  11. #171

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    What a deranged kind of reasoning that Israel should not retaliate at all when under attack because their retaliation does not immediately end the attacks for good. Conversely, one could say that Hamas should not fire rockets because they do not stop the airstrikes.

    I have never heard before that in an armed conflict one party should not have the moral right to use force.
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  12. #172

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Who said anything about not retaliating at all? Just don't pretend murdering kids has any effect on the rocket spam other than justifying the existence of Hamas. The IDF has the ability to fight Hamas on the ground and actually stop the rockets. They are just too scared of the cost. So they just impotently murder children since they are too scared to actually fight Hamas. Hamas does the best they can with the resources they have. The same cannot be said of israel.

  13. #173
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatsnat View Post
    It's been obvious since Hezbollah defeated israel in 2006 that bombing civs doesn't stop rocket spam.
    Imagine actually thinking that Hezbollah won that war, LMAO.
    Israel does not target civilians. If it did the casualties would be in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, not 128.
    But israel does it anyways despite it's known ineffectiveness. It doesn't stop the rockets but it pleases bloodthirsty israelis and their doomsday cult evangelical supporters.
    So clearly no attempt must be made to stop rocket fire, right? Just sit there and take it. Nevermind that it did work, but whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatsnat View Post
    Who said anything about not retaliating at all? Just don't pretend murdering kids has any effect on the rocket spam other than justifying the existence of Hamas.
    Find someone on this thread that argued that murdering kids will stop rocket fire. You're strawmanning.
    The IDF has the ability to fight Hamas on the ground and actually stop the rockets. They are just too scared of the cost. So they just impotently murder children since they are too scared to actually fight Hamas. Hamas does the best they can with the resources they have. The same cannot be said of israel.
    You're right on one point: there should have been a ground invasion and occupation.

  14. #174

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    That's an interesting attempt to silence an argument. Hatsnat explicitly referred to bombing civilians. Yet, the two of you made an issue out of that, treating it as if he argued against any retaliation in general. His post was clear. Your posts are clear.
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  15. #175
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    That's an interesting attempt to silence an argument. Hatsnat explicitly referred to bombing civilians. Yet, the two of you made an issue out of that, treating it as if he argued against any retaliation in general. His post was clear. Your posts are clear.
    I do believe that I did address that, several times in several posts. He continues to repeat the claim, even though it is frankly ridiculous.

  16. #176

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    It is not seriously contested that Israel endeavored to avoid civilian casualties. This has been acknowledged by the the head of the UNRWA in Gaza, Matthias Schmale* and Anthony Blinken.

    *Schmale was later forced to walk back his remarks following pressure from Hamas, but did not deny the precision of the Israeli strikes.

  17. #177

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    That's an interesting attempt to silence an argument. Hatsnat explicitly referred to bombing civilians. Yet, the two of you made an issue out of that, treating it as if he argued against any retaliation in general. His post was clear. Your posts are clear.
    I honestly did not attempt to silence an argument. His initial confrontational and partisan posting did not communicate to me that he was arguing for different strategic or tactical requirements (or higher moral standards) for IDF in this conflict. He made his point clear in his last post and I am happy with that clarification.
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  18. #178
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    I wonder what it is supposed to say. Did you indeed envisage me as the Alsatian boy?
    No, the German professor. In this case, Israel is Germany, the German professor.The analogy is pretty clear.It is important to know the history of one's own country.
    It's about the first German annexation of Alsace-Lorraine,
    We Germans who know Germany and France know better what is good for the Alsatians than the unfortunates themselves. In the perversion of their French life they have no exact idea of what concerns Germany-Heirich von Treischke,German historian, 1871
    ---
    So, what is good for the Palestinians? Bennet knows the solution, the annexation of the Palestinians territories. Period.
    The racist will be prime minister. At least, he openly says what Netanyahu thinks.
    Far-right Israeli minister plans bill to annex one of biggest (2017-Guardian)

    “The British conquered the land from the Turks, the Jordanians illegally conquered the West Bank from the British, and then we released it.”
    And now that Israel has “liberated” part of the land promised to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in a “benevolent” manner, the religious fanatic demands an apartheid regime for the craziest people in the earth living under occupation, Naftali Bennett: ′We are surrounded by the craziest people in the world”(2015)

    The leader of the right-wing Jewish Home party doesn't mind Palestinians being integrated in Israel - but he demands a different status for them
    ----------
    Meanwhile in Portugal, Chega (“Enough”) a little fascist, racist party (one seat in the parliament), has the support of Netanyahu's party. Salvini (esperado) e partido de Netanyahu (surpresa) foram
    (Last day of the Chega congress was marked by support from abroad (Salvini from Italy and a message from Benjamin Netanyahu's party in Israel)
    Com o 'Chega', direita nacionalista com discurso antissemita
    The new Salazar, a perfect nazi salute,
    Simply amazing.
    Last edited by Ludicus; May 31, 2021 at 04:51 PM.
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  19. #179
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    So, what is good for the Palestinians? Bennet knows the solution, the annexation of the Palestinians territories. Period.
    Only of areas C, and he already stated that that won't happen with the current government. And frankly he'd be hard pressed to get any other party to support such a thing, save for RZ, and I'm not even sure all members of his own party would.
    The racist will be prime minister.
    Racist, huh? Any evidence?
    Nah, Netanyahu wouldn't go through with that. Note how the annexation discussed in your linked article never happened.
    And now that Israel has “liberated” part of the land promised to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in a “benevolent” manner, the religious fanatic demands an apartheid regime for the craziest people in the earth living under occupation, Naftali Bennett: ′We are surrounded by the craziest people in the world”(2015)
    Yeah nah, apartheid is not his plan. If you want to know what he actually wants to do feel free to watch his video:


    It's not perfect but it's certainly not apartheid.

  20. #180
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    It is not seriously contested that Israel endeavored to avoid civilian casualties. This has been acknowledged by the the head of the UNRWA in Gaza, Matthias Schmale* and Anthony Blinken.

    *Schmale was later forced to walk back his remarks following pressure from Hamas, but did not deny the precision of the Israeli strikes.
    Headline: Israel Shills Defend Israel Killing Civilians

    One tries to tell the truth and Israeli PR spins it as Hamas made him lie. Anthony Blinken also says Brexit was stupid af. Didn’t know his opinion mattered to you so much. Or is it just the killing children part you love to rationalize as a greater good?

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