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Thread: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

  1. #141
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    If a man pokes a bear with a stick and then the bear hits him with his paw the man will be the one injured, but it won’t be because the bear is evil.

  2. #142

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    This is from an article in the Atlantic by a former AP News reporter. It was written following the 2014 conflict, but is relevant to coverage of this most recent conflict:

    Most consumers of the Israel story don’t understand how the story is manufactured. But Hamas does. Since assuming power in Gaza in 2007, the Islamic Resistance Movement has come to understand that many reporters are committed to a narrative wherein Israelis are oppressors and Palestinians passive victims with reasonable goals, and are uninterested in contradictory information. Recognizing this, certain Hamas spokesmen have taken to confiding to Western journalists, including some I know personally, that the group is in fact a secretly pragmatic outfit with bellicose rhetoric, and journalists—eager to believe the confession, and sometimes unwilling to credit locals with the smarts necessary to deceive them—have taken it as a scoop instead of as spin.

    During my time at the AP, we helped Hamas get this point across with a school of reporting that might be classified as “Surprising Signs of Moderation” (a direct precursor to the “Muslim Brotherhood Is Actually Liberal” school that enjoyed a brief vogue in Egypt). In one of my favorite stories, “More Tolerant Hamas” (December 11, 2011), reporters quoted a Hamas spokesman informing readers that the movement’s policy was that “we are not going to dictate anything to anyone,” and another Hamas leader saying the movement had “learned it needs to be more tolerant of others.” Around the same time, I was informed by the bureau’s senior editors that our Palestinian reporter in Gaza couldn’t possibly provide critical coverage of Hamas because doing so would put him in danger.

    Hamas is aided in its manipulation of the media by the old reportorial belief, a kind of reflex, according to which reporters shouldn’t mention the existence of reporters. In a conflict like ours, this ends up requiring considerable exertions: So many photographers cover protests in Israel and the Palestinian territories, for example, that one of the challenges for anyone taking pictures is keeping colleagues out of the frame. That the other photographers are as important to the story as Palestinian protesters or Israeli soldiers—this does not seem to be considered.

    In Gaza, this goes from being a curious detail of press psychology to a major deficiency. Hamas’s strategy is to provoke a response from Israel by attacking from behind the cover of Palestinian civilians, thus drawing Israeli strikes that kill those civilians, and then to have the casualties filmed by one of the world’s largest press contingents, with the understanding that the resulting outrage abroad will blunt Israel’s response. This is a ruthless strategy, and an effective one. It is predicated on the cooperation of journalists. One of the reasons it works is because of the reflex I mentioned. If you report that Hamas has a strategy based on co-opting the media, this raises several difficult questions, like, What exactly is the relationship between the media and Hamas? And has this relationship corrupted the media? It is easier just to leave the other photographers out of the frame and let the picture tell the story: Here are dead people, and Israel killed them.

    In previous rounds of Gaza fighting, Hamas learned that international coverage from the territory could be molded to its needs, a lesson it would implement in this summer’s war. Most of the press work in Gaza is done by local fixers, translators, and reporters, people who would understandably not dare cross Hamas, making it only rarely necessary for the group to threaten a Westerner. The organization’s armed forces could be made to disappear. The press could be trusted to play its role in the Hamas script, instead of reporting that there was such a script. Hamas strategy did not exist, according to Hamas—or, as reporters would say, was “not the story.” There was no Hamas charter blaming Jews for centuries of perfidy, or calling for their murder; this was not the story. The rockets falling on Israeli cities were quite harmless; they were not the story either.

    Hamas understood that journalists would not only accept as fact the Hamas-reported civilian death toll—relayed through the UN or through something called the “Gaza Health Ministry,” an office controlled by Hamas—but would make those numbers the center of coverage. Hamas understood that reporters could be intimidated when necessary and that they would not report the intimidation; Western news organizations tend to see no ethical imperative to inform readers of the restrictions shaping their coverage in repressive states or other dangerous areas. In the war’s aftermath, the NGO-UN-media alliance could be depended upon to unleash the organs of the international community on Israel, and to leave the jihadist group alone.

    When Hamas’s leaders surveyed their assets before this summer’s round of fighting, they knew that among those assets was the international press. The AP staff in Gaza City would witness a rocket launch right beside their office, endangering reporters and other civilians nearby—and the AP wouldn’t report it, not even in AP articles about Israeli claims that Hamas was launching rockets from residential areas. (This happened.) Hamas fighters would burst into the AP’s Gaza bureau and threaten the staff—and the AP wouldn’t report it. (This also happened.) Cameramen waiting outside Shifa Hospital in Gaza City would film the arrival of civilian casualties and then, at a signal from an official, turn off their cameras when wounded and dead fighters came in, helping Hamas maintain the illusion that only civilians were dying. (This too happened; the information comes from multiple sources with firsthand knowledge of these incidents.)

    Colford, the AP spokesman, confirmed that armed militants entered the AP’s Gaza office in the early days of the war to complain about a photo showing the location of a rocket launch, though he said that Hamas claimed that the men “did not represent the group.” The AP “does not report many interactions with militias, armies, thugs or governments,” he wrote. “These incidents are part of the challenge of getting out the news—and not themselves news.”
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  3. #143
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
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    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    It was something like 67 Palestinian children killed and 2 Israeli. Seems the eviler side isn’t hard to identify.
    Out of the 4300+ rockets Hamas fired at Israel roughly a third of them fell inside the Gaza Strip. Thats about 1400(!) rockets fired by Hamas, which landed in Gaza on their own people.

    Yeah, it isnt hard to identify the eviler side.

  4. #144

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    It never has been.
    Literally every time an operation like this ends the Israeli public is frustrated and angry, as at the end of the day nothing is achieved long term and everyone knows it'll happen again in a couple years. What benefit starting an operation brings is quickly gone following its ending.
    Even you know this isn't true. As you said here
    This was just about to happen before Hamas started firing, which almost prevented it
    It almost prevented bibi's ouster because Bibi knows slaughtering Palestinian kids is a good way to bolster support among israelis. But hamas outplayed him and used his favorite strategy to hurt him.

    Hamas has no achievements of note beyond some initial shock factor achieved by the size of the barrage on the centre of the country. It's certainly doing better on PR, but that's largely by having the world ignore the existence of Hamas. No sane government supports Hamas. Even if American support is lost Israel will continue to exist, it's going nowhere.
    Iran is sane enough to have defeated America and israel in the Syrian and Iraq proxy wars. They know how to use a proxy against an overwhelmingly superior foe. And their war of attrition strategy seems to be working. The world doesn't ignore the existence of Hamas. It just stopped ignoring the circumstances that lead to Hamas fighting back. And they were an inspiration. Despite israel's attempts to divide and conquer Palestinians, Gaza stood in solidarity with their West Bank brethren and fought in their defense. They could have stayed quiet and allowed israel's crimes to go unpunished. Obviously, israel was going to murder scores of children if they made a peep of resistance. But they did it anyway and kept fighting until israel had to give up and ceasefire. This was helped by israeli social media whining showing how pathetic the hamas rockets are while the IDF brags about flattening apartment blocks.

    israel depends on us for more than just the annual $4 billion. You need us for the bribes to Egypt and Jordan. You need us for the free UN veto. You need us to keep sanctions off. You need us for idiot evangelical tourist bucks. You need us to shatter countries like Iraq and Syria. You need us to bully Iran. The bad news for israel is that we're rapidly becoming less capable of doing all that, whether we want to or not. Iran found a winning strategy. They're too tough for us to invade and can handle the siege of sanctions. They will outlast you while tightening the noose. China and Russia are going to keep removing American influence from Asia and they will have a more balanced and fair approach to the Middle East. This is disastrous for israel. Fairness is your poison.
    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    This too happened; the information comes from multiple sources with firsthand knowledge of these incidents
    Source: dude, trust me. The one thing he does have a source for is pathetically mild. People are allowed to complain, even if it's about AP revealing rocket launch sites. All Matti is doing for the entire is complaining about reporting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    Out of the 4300+ rockets Hamas fired at Israel roughly a third of them fell inside the Gaza Strip. Thats about 1400(!) rockets fired by Hamas, which landed in Gaza on their own people.

    Yeah, it isnt hard to identify the eviler side.
    israel has openly stated it's goal to brutalize Gaza and keep it trapped in a situation with medieval tech. It's not Hamas's fault they have low tech. And having low tech doesn't make you evil. But they do the best with what they have. And it's working. israel is losing the war of attrition.
    Now having high tech and still blowing up scores of children? That's evil. israel wants to be held to the standards of Hamas while having all the advantages of America. The only people who agree with that dichotomy are dying boomers.

  5. #145
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I wonder if hatred of Muslims would still fuel such a post if the lands we were speaking of were in Germany.
    I didn't express hatred, merely distrust based on evidence. And yes, it would depend on the country, what stance I take towards Muslims. But it's no secret that I generally tend to be less than sympathetic towards their constant indignation and celebration of victimhood and this applies to Palestine & Israel more than to any other place in the world. Obviously, I think that Islam is a socially destructive ideology of a particularly persistent brand and of course I wish it would just go away completely... one can dream.

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    It was something like 67 Palestinian children killed and 2 Israeli. Seems the eviler side isn’t hard to identify.
    What childish example of judgement.
    Hamas is known to use children as human meat shields.
    Last edited by swabian; May 30, 2021 at 10:23 AM.

  6. #146
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I wonder if hatred of Muslims would still fuel such a post if the lands we were speaking of were in Germany.
    Indeed.
    The Last Class—The Story of a Little Alsatian


    -----
    May 25, 2021

    Opinion | The Discrimination Palestinian Citizens of Israel -- NYTimes




    ---
    Before Rage Flared, a Push to Make Israel's Mixed Towns - New York Times...
    An eruption of Arab-Jewish violence inside Israeli cities has focused attention on a movement of religious nationalists seeking to strengthen the Jewish presence in areas with large Arab populations.
    ----

    The Rise of the New Settler State - Jewish Currents

    ...Yet the state of emergency did not prevent hundreds of armed Jewish settlers from flooding into the city from the occupied West Bank that night and over the following days. According to Haredi journalist Israel Frey, “battalions” arrived in the city on buses from extremist settlements and illegal outposts in open violation of the curfew. Their presence had been requested by members of Lod’s Torah Nucleus—an association of right-wing religious Zionists who have settled in Lod with the explicit aim of bolstering the size of the city’s Jewish population. And while police had met the Palestinian demonstrators with rubber-coated bullets and stun grenades, they greeted the armed settlers and local right-wing activists with tacit, and in some cases open, support. In video footage captured by Israeli photojournalist Oren Ziv, settlers and police stand shoulder-to-shoulder, throwing, respectively, rocks and stun grenades at a group of Palestinian men guarding a mosque.
    Here,




    In a 2017 interview with the Israeli business paper Calcalist, Shilo Hendler, one of the leaders of Lod’s Torah Nucleus, remarked that settling in Lod “was no less a task of national importance than living in Nablus”—a Palestinian city in heart of the West Bank. But whereas the settler movement’s primary aim in the West Bank is to secure as much land as possible for Jews, and thus to prevent the creation of a Palestinian state, the movement’s goal inside Israel is to maintain a Jewish majority in the country’s cities—by pushing Palestinians out.

    A 2016 Pew Survey found that more Israeli Jews agree that “Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel” than disagree.

    ..In Lod, as in Acre and Jaffa, Palestinian citizens of Israel were reacting to an increasingly urgent threat of displacement from neighborhoods they’ve inhabited for decades. This is, in part, why the institutions of Lod’s Torah Nucleus—the yeshiva, the pre-military academy—bore the brunt of the protesters’ rage. They embodied not simply the threat of expulsion, but also the underlying project of Judaization: an effort that, in Lod and elsewhere, is driven by right-wing groups like the Torah Nuclei, but supported financially by the Israeli government and ideologically by a broadening swath of Israeli society.

    The appearance of armed West Bank settlers patrolling Israeli streets suggests not only the shifting balance of power, but also the violent future that a settler-run state will entail. “I have a theory, according to which one day there will be a second War of Independence,” tweeted Naveh Dromi, a right-wing, secular Israeli journalist amidst last week’s violence, “during which we will again liberate the Temple Mount, the Tomb of the Patriarchs, and the Gaza Strip. For the Palestinians it will be a second Nakba. What’s happening now only strengthens my thesis.”
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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  7. #147
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Indeed.
    The Last Class—The Story of a Little Alsatian
    A lovely piece of off-topic. I wonder what it is supposed to say. Did you indeed envisage me as the Alsatian boy?



    It's pretty obvious what the Israelis are attempting to do and of course we can agree or disagree on whether it is justified or not. The problem is that the dice have been cast long ago in the past when the British defeated the Ottoman colonial power and replaced the local absence of statehood with the Zionist state of Israel. Upon the departure of the British, the surrounding Arab countries rushed in to violently prevent the foundation of Israel. The second Arabic attempt at destroying Israel was another heinous and cowardly mob-like aggression that again might have resulted in genocide, after the Jews got nearly wiped out in Europe before. Since then, the current policy is predetermined. What other choice does Israel really have in order to secure its future existence in this hostile part of the world? None. There are no strategically sound alternatives. The Israeli Jews must secure their majority.
    Last edited by swabian; May 30, 2021 at 11:51 AM.

  8. #148

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    The map included in the Buttu article is misleading if not out right false: there was not an independent state of Palestine as implied. The New York Times defended the map by claiming that it is "art".

    Comments from Shany Mor, a researcher at the Israel Democracy Institute:

    1) The claim that it is just art "conveying a sense of shrinking space for Palestinians" rings false when it recapitulates with 100% fidelity widely reproduced maps which claim to show actual borders. "Just art" that conveys this would have looked very different. One might think from reading Patrick Heal's response that this was just a shrinking blot on a map. That might be just art making a political point. But this is an exact copy of well known agitprop, and ,most importantly, verifiably false. That shouldn't sneak by an editor.

    2) The claim in the article about "the ethnic cleansing of Palestine in 1948 when more than 75 percent of the Palestinian population was expelled from their homes to make way for Jewish immigrants" should never have made it past the fact-checkers the first time around. To reproduce here as a reason for the phoney maps compounds the dishonesty. The idea that this is a remotely honest account of the events surrounding Israel's independence or the refugee crisis that ensued is outrageous.

    Defenders of racist violence (as Buttu defended attacks on synagogues) will always see themselves as geniune victims. The Times wouldn't give them the liberty to make this claim in any other context. But when it comes to Jews, pathologies get to become grievances.
    Last edited by Cope; May 30, 2021 at 12:09 PM.



  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post

    What childish example of judgement.
    Hamas is known to use children as human meat shields.
    You get dropping bombs on child hostages is wrong right?
    Israel is known for massacring innocents and extralegal assassinations so...

  10. #150

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    Hamas is known to use children as human meat shields.
    What amazes me is the little attention that gets, given that it is perhaps the most revealing aspect of the differences between the parties in the conflict.

    Hamas uses Arab children as human shields because it knows it works. Could you seriously imagine Israeli soldiers using Jewish children as shields and expecting that to deter Hamas one bit?

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    It doesn’t work as a deterrent, the Israelis don’t care, it does work as painting Israel as child killers, which they are.

    What always confuses me is why people choose a side here. Tell me I have to choose between the 3rd Reich and the Taliban and my take is wipe them both from the earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    If a man pokes a bear with a stick and then the bear hits him with his paw the man will be the one injured, but it won’t be because the bear is evil.
    You recognize Palestinians as human (more than Israel does) and admit that the Israelis are no better than violent predatory animals, yet still you support their war crimes.
    Last edited by chriscase; June 01, 2021 at 12:42 PM.

  12. #152

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    What always confuses me is why people choose a side here.
    A good point. I am very much a proponent of not taking sides in conflicts that one does not understand. I hope that my observation about the human shield issue, which may be wrong, does not constitute taking a side in the entirety of the conflict. I am just very interested in questions of morality, and I was perceiving a difference here.

  13. #153

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    What amazes me is the little attention that gets, given that it is perhaps the most revealing aspect of the differences between the parties in the conflict.

    Hamas uses Arab children as human shields because it knows it works. Could you seriously imagine Israeli soldiers using Jewish children as shields and expecting that to deter Hamas one bit?
    The Israelis did used to use human shields, albeit in a different way (typically Palestinians were used to coax militants out of their homes). The practice was outlawed by Israel's supreme court in 2002.

    Though it is perfectly correct that Israel is often held to a higher standard than any other nation/armed group in the Middle East.
    Last edited by Cope; May 31, 2021 at 01:37 AM. Reason: Date correction.



  14. #154
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    What amazes me is the little attention that gets, given that it is perhaps the most revealing aspect of the differences between the parties in the conflict.

    Hamas uses Arab children as human shields because it knows it works. Could you seriously imagine Israeli soldiers using Jewish children as shields and expecting that to deter Hamas one bit?
    No i can't imagine that at all. What is also quickly forgotten is how much the Israelis actually tend to the victims of the Syrian civil war without prejudice. They are ready and there to give humanitarian aid to a country that wishes Israel gone and dead. Israel is nothing but a blessing to the Middle East. They also alarm us Westerners about dangerous developments in the wider region. Without the Israelis, the West would have almost forgotten about the threatening development in Iran. We need those people as much as they need us, in fact. This has grown to a fruitful alliance, absolutely. And it is a shame, how the Israelis have been let down by Trump, after they have provided immense strategic value to the USA since decades. Antisemitism really is, very unfortunately, an international phenomenon and it is this basis, that propaganda on Al Jazeera and related media are building their recent propagandistic success on. This is actually sad and this is what stirs me up to participate ITT. I think the mechanism behind this is very primitive: "the Jews have been victimized historically, so it's easy to hurt them. They will cave in with cultural PTSD, let's jump them". This is the kind of awful that is going on here and nothing less.
    Last edited by swabian; May 30, 2021 at 02:08 PM.

  15. #155

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    These articles are quite unbalanced.

    Lod in context:

    Intense Arab rioting broke out in the central Israeli city of Lod late Tuesday, with three synagogues and numerous shops reportedly set on fire, along with dozens of cars. The government declared a state of emergency in the Jewish-Arab city, and urgently dispatched several Border Police companies to work to restore order.

    Some residents reported power was cut in their homes and petrol bombs were thrown through their windows, Channel 12 news said, and police acknowledged having to escort some residents from a community center to their homes as Arab mobs marauded in the streets. A local man, 56, was seriously hurt when hit by a slab in his car, and was hospitalized. Another local resident was seriously hurt.

    The mayor, Yair Revivo, said City Hall and a local museum were also attacked, and compared the situation to the Nazis’ 1938 Kristallnacht pogrom. “Civil war” is breaking out, he said, lamenting that decades of coexistence efforts had collapsed.

    After Revivo appealed directly to the prime minister for urgent help, a state of emergency was declared in the city for the first time in decades, and large Border Police forces deployed to work to restore order. “Prime Minister [Benjamin] Netanyahu directed that lawbreakers be dealt with severely and that units on the ground be reinforced in order to restore quiet and order to the city forthwith,” a government statement said.

    National Police Commissioner Kobi Shabtai called the situation unprecedented.

    “We are seeing a situation in the mixed [Jewish-Arab] cities that we have never seen before, including the incidents of October 2000,” said Shabtai, who rushed to the city. (Widespread rioting broke out among Arab Israelis in October 2000 at the start of the second intifada.)

    Footage posted on social media showed a torched synagogue and two Torah scrolls being salvaged — unharmed — from its ruins.

    Arab violence erupted in numerous other cities across Israel, and there were also reports of Jewish revenge attacks, including in Lod, where a Muslim cemetery was set ablaze.

    Attacks were reported on Jewish homes in Ramle, where cars were also stoned. In Acre, a restaurant and a hotel were set ablaze.

    The surge in violence came hours after Hamas fired some 130 rockets at central Israel, and claimed “victory” in what its leader Ismail Haniyeh said was “the battle for Jerusalem.” Hamas later hailed Arab Israelis for joining the struggle against Israel.

    Lod resident Shiloh Fried told Channel 12: “Gangs of Arab youths are going street to street, burning stores, smashing windows… Jewish families are huddled at home, terrified of going out… Their cars are being set alight outside… Police are nowhere to be seen.”

    There were reports that some residents were avoiding using public shelters during rocket sirens out of fear they would be attacked by mobs.

    Channel 12 also showed footage of Jewish residents of Lod hurling rocks at cars of Arab residents, though Fried said these incidents were minor ones compared to the scope of Arab rioting. An Arab resident was killed on Monday night amid violence, in what Jewish eyewitnesses said was self-defense against Arab assailants.

    Before the army was sent in, Lod Mayor Revivo had warned “this is too big for the police.”

    “This is Kristallnacht in Lod,” Revivo said on Channel 12. “I have called on the prime minister to declare a state of emergency in Lod. To call in the IDF. To impose a curfew. To restore quiet… There is a failure of governance… This is a giant incident — an intifada of Arab Israelis. All the work we have done here for years [on coexistence] has gone down the drain.”

    “All of Israel should know, this is a complete loss of control,” Revivo added, sounding desperate. “This is unthinkable. Synagogues are being burned. Hundreds of cars set alight. Hundreds of Arab thugs are roaming the streets… Civil war has erupted in Lod… The Orthodox-nationalist community here has guns. I’m imploring them to go back home but they understandably want to protect their homes. Molotov cocktails are being thrown into [Jewish] homes. The situation is incendiary.”
    Also:

    Prosecutors have filed indictments against 170 people involved in inter-ethnic rioting over the past 10 days, of which 15 are Jewish and the rest Arab, Haaretz reports.

    Most of the indictments cite racist motives.

    Police have arrested 1,319 suspects in the unrest, of which 252 are minors, the report says. The vast majority are Arab, while 159 are Jewish.

    Of those arrested, 543 remain jailed.
    Regarding how the Jewish extremists are being dealt with:

    As the streets of Israel roiled with racial strife and fighting this month, police smashed a ring of dozens of extremist young Jews who were using social media to plan attacks on Arab citizens.

    Police were tipped off about the plans of the group, whose members allied themselves with the extremist Lehava organization. Nine of the group's members were arrested after they were found in possession of various items that they allegedly planned to use as weapons.
    Regarding the reactions of the political leadership:

    In a rare display of unity, Israeli politicians from across the spectrum — from Islamist Arab to far-right Jew — expressed shock and condemnation of the paroxysms of internal Jewish-Arab violence that erupted across the country in recent days.

    Israel on Wednesday experienced its worst night of internal Jewish-Arab chaos for many years, amid the ongoing armed conflict with Gaza, as scenes of unrest, rioting, hate rallies and growing social chaos spread throughout numerous cities, some of which were once seen as symbols of coexistence.

    Violent confrontations erupted in Lod, Acre, Jerusalem, Haifa, Bat Yam, Tiberias and many other locations, with multiple people injured, some of them seriously, leading Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to announce he was looking at deploying the military inside towns to restore order.

    Perhaps the most shocking scene of the night, and one that elicited expressions of disbelief and horror from Israeli leaders, was footage of hundreds of Jewish extremists in Bat Yam vandalizing Arab property and then assaulting an Arab driver in his car, dragging him out of the vehicle and beating him savagely.

    The well-documented incident in Bat Yam brought on expressions of disgust from politicians, from the prime minister to far-right Knesset members. In a video from his office, Netanyahu told the public that such incidents were “intolerable.”

    Opposition leader Yair Lapid decried the “total loss of control.”

    Defense Minister Benny Gantz warned that Israeli internal divisions were “no less dangerous than Hamas.”

    Yamina chief Naftali Bennett called the scenes in Bat Yam “un-Jewish, immoral, inhuman.” His No. 2 Ayelet Shaked decried the “moral bankruptcy” of such an attack.

    New Hope’s Gideon Sa’ar warned the country could be sliding toward civil war.

    In an uncustomary phone interview with Channel 12, President Reuven Rivlin implored Israelis of all ethnicities and religions to stop the “madness” unfolding on the streets of Jewish-Arab cities.

    “I am very worried,” he said, adding that he was “crying out” for internal peace.

    “I call on and beg of all local leaders, religious leaders, on citizens, on parents. Do all you can to stop this terrible thing that is happening before our eyes,” he said. “We are dealing with a civil war between us without any reason. Please stop this madness… I beg of you. This country belongs to all of us. Desist.”

    Sephardi Chief Rabbi Yitzhak Yosef put out a statement imploring Jews not to turn violent against Arab citizens.

    “Innocent Israeli civilians are attacked by terror organizations, the blood runs hot and our hearts are outraged, the scenes are difficult to watch. But we mustn’t be dragged to provocations and to hurting people or harming property,” he said.

    He added that the Torah does not permit one to take the law into one’s own hands. “The work of restoring order must be left to police,” he said. “We must be a light unto the nations, and not, God forbid, the opposite.”

    The far-right leader of the Religious Zionism party, Bezalel Smotrich, long accused of stoking racial and religious tensions, said he was “shocked and ashamed to the bottom of my soul” by the attack on the Arab man. “We are in difficult days, under attack, frustrated… but damn it, how can Jews be so cruel?! Terrible,” he tweeted.

    Even Public Security Minister Amir Ohana, who has come under heavy criticism during the ongoing violence between Arabs and Jews across the country, both for his lack of action and his silence, issued his first statement on the situation.

    “The attacks by Arabs against Jews, security forces, the symbols of Judaism and institutions of government are heartbreaking,” he said.

    “This cannot be accepted and there is nothing to justify it — just as there is no, and will not be any, justification for the terrible violence and the [Jewish] mob assault this evening [of an Arab bystander],” said the minister responsible for the police.

    “Violence mixed with hatred should be condemned outright,” he said, calling on all Israelis to return home. “We have no other country. We must live here together.”

    “No one has the authority to take the law into their own hands,” he concluded.

    Arab leaders also condemned the violence, also noting violent attacks by Arabs on Jews.

    Joint List chair Ayman Odeh and Ra’am chief Masour Abbas both condemned the violence on Arabic-language radio, while asking Arabs not to leave their homes so as not to be attacked by Jewish mobs.

    The two Arab Israeli political leaders also stressed the need for Arab youth not to respond with violence against people or property.

    Odeh also attacked Ohana, who he accused of giving support to Jewish rioters in “taking the law into their own hands” after he spoke in support of Jews suspected of shooting Arab rioters earlier this week, and said “civilians carrying weapons are helpful to authorities in immediately neutralizing threats or dangers.”

    “The madness must be stopped,” Odeh said.

    Abbas also called for an end to the violence.

    “I call on all politicians, leaders, mayors and clerics — Arabs and Jews — to put all disputes aside and take responsibility for our society as a whole and do everything in their power to stop the current wave of violence and madness across the country,” he says.

    “Please take responsibility for people’s lives. This is a moment when the humanity within each and every one of us needs to be revealed and transcend beyond any difference, conflict or controversy of any kind.”

    At TV studios, anchors and pundits were despondent, with many describing the night’s events as unlike anything they’d ever experienced, and as signifying a breakdown of social cohesion that could take years to mend.

    Only around midnight did police state that they had managed to bring most hotspots under control, with at least some 400 people arrested, among them several who were suspected in the Bat Yam attack. Police said 36 cops were hurt during events.
    And if anyone is interested in commentary on the 2016 Pew survey mentioned:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    For his part, Israel Prize laureate Sammy Smooha, a professor of sociology at the University of Haifa, has criticized the wording of the transfer query in the Pew survey.

    “Although it’s clear that support for expulsion and transfer should be condemned, the wording of the question is vague,” he told Haaretz, adding, “the way the question is presented, the statement ‘to expel Arabs from Israel’ is noncommittal and even easy to agree with.”

    Smooha explained that the question as phrased did not specify the identity of candidates for expulsion, so that it’s possible that respondents thought it referred to the transfer of West Bank residents who reside in Israel proper but are not Israeli citizens per se. Moreover, the sociologist said it does not state whether the expulsion would affect all Arab citizens in Israel, or only those who support the country’s enemies or are deemed to be subversive. “In other words, this question can be understood in various ways,” he said.

    He also believes that the poll “reflects alienation and disgust with the Arabs more than it attests to agreement to grant legitimacy to the government to expel them, [because] the statement presented in the survey is unrealistic and unfeasible.”

    Since 2003, Smooha himself has been researching the relations between the country’s Jewish and Arab citizens.

    “It’s absolutely clear to me that about a quarter of the Jews oppose coexistence with the Arab citizens, but the vast majority of Jews accepts coexistence,” he noted. “Among the Arab public, too, between a quarter and a third oppose coexistence. On both sides there is a population that rules out coexistence, but they won’t set the rules. That will be done by the mainstream, which is prepared to make concessions to the other side.”

    Added Smooha: “The Jews have complex positions. While they wouldn’t object if Arabs left the country, they don’t want the government to initiate such a move. The Jews have come to understand that the Arabs are here to stay and that they have to get along, and they don’t want to upset everything or sabotage coexistence.”

    The Haifa sociologist has asked Jewish subjects a question similar to that posed by Pew, but with different wording: “Do you agree or disagree that the Arab citizens should leave the country and receive appropriate compensation?” The responses received in the latest survey, conducted last year, differ from those of the present Pew poll: Only 32 percent said they would agree with the statement.

    Smooha: “Throughout the years we are seeing a decline in the proportion of Jews who agree that Arabs should leave the country in return for [monetary] compensation. In 2003 the percentage was 39 percent. In other words, there is no majority in favor, and there is also a decline.”

    The new Pew poll also indicated a decline in the proportion of both Israeli Jews and Arabs who believe there is a chance for peace between Israel and a future Palestinian state: Only 43 percent of Jewish respondents and 50 percent of the Arabs questioned said they believed there was such a chance, as of 2015. In a 2013 survey by the U.S. organization, 46 percent of Jews and 74 percent of Arabs believed in peace between the two entities.

    The latest poll also examined feelings of discrimination among Muslim citizens of Israel. About one-third (37 percent) said they believed they had suffered discrimination because of their religion; 17 percent had been questioned by members of Israel’s security establishment; 15 percent had been prevented from traveling; and 15 percent were threatened or physically assaulted because of their religion in the past year, while 13 percent reported that their property had been damaged for that same reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  16. #156
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post

    Though it is perfectly correct that Israel is often held to a higher standard than any other nation/armed group in the Middle East.
    But still a significantly lower standard than any other western democracies are held too.

  17. #157

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Not to burst a bubble but:

    Israeli soldiers use a Palestinian man, ‘Abd a-Rahim Gheith, as human shield during clashes in Jericho

    Human Shields
    Since the beginning of the occupation in 1967, Israeli security forces have repeatedly used Palestinians in the West Bank and in the Gaza Strip as human shields, ordering them to perform military tasks that risked their lives. As part of this policy, soldiers have ordered Palestinian civilians to remove suspicious objects from roads, to tell people to come out of their homes so the military can arrest them, to stand in front of soldiers while the latter shoot from behind them, and more. The Palestinian civilians were chosen at random for these tasks, and could not refuse the demand placed on them by armed soldiers.

    For Israel, the Supreme Court had to ban the practice 3 years after human rights group had to bring it forward:

    Israeli high court bans military use of Palestinians as human shields
    The Israeli high court yesterday ruled that the army's long-standing practice of using Palestinian civilians as human shields in combat is illegal under international law. It said the military's claim to have amended the procedure to allow civilians to "volunteer" to work with the army was still unacceptable because it was unlikely anyone would freely do so.
    Of course, IDF tried to appeal it:

    IDF to appeal human shield ban
    Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz is prepared to make a personal appearance in court to defend the practice, ministry officials added.
    Yet, Israel found a nice excuse in this human shields issue. Pretty much any civilian structure in Gaza is deemed Hamas HQ where civilians are used as human shields. Basically, with such standards, it's impossible for Hamas to not be blamed for using human shields in a tight corner of the world such as Gaza.

    By the same standards, any rocket towards Tel Aviv is good game because Israeli defense ministry HQ is located in te middle of Tel Aviv.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; May 30, 2021 at 02:41 PM.
    The Armenian Issue

  18. #158
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Not to burst a bubble but:
    But it is. This accusation (Israeli Soldiers using Palestinians as meat shields) is at least a decade old and it has been shown to be utter nonsense over and over again. I actually remember it coming up every now and then and it's always being dismissed. That's not to say that the Israelis can do what they want, they have to abide by the (unspoken) rules (means no big escalations). But as long as they do, they can conquer. Slowly and steadily. The Israelis are harsh enough with the occupied people and it's no fault to have compassion with everyone (in general). If they ever really overdo it - and they can - then they have a huge problem, also among their own population. Netanyahu knows this and that's why he is the best choice for this fight.

    So, back to IDF meat-shield-strategy accusations, ugh... But this is simply nonsense. Only Hamas uses human shields and only Hamas has to do that in order to stay in the game. Hamas has to stir up as much hate against the Jews as possible and at the same time deliver "results" in order to stay in the game, because they are both, a mafia-like organization as well as terrorist paramilitaries, who would manipulate the population by any means available. they would even provoke Israeli attacks in order to legitimize themselves. The Israelis will just strike professionally with numbed indifference towards the Arabic hatred that is as relentless as it is impotent.
    Last edited by swabian; May 30, 2021 at 03:20 PM.

  19. #159

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Not to burst a bubble but:
    Since I am only interested in understanding the nature of the conflict and not here to push an agenda, I consider bursting any bubble that I may have a favor. So thank you for the links.

    The things you posted are good to know, but they do not really change the perception that IDF using Jewish children to deter Hamas sounds ridiculous to a degree that Hamas using Arab children does not.

    What is your understanding of the matter? Does Hamas deliberately use hospitals, schools, and the like for firing rockets to either prevent retaliation or to reap the PR advantage of making IDF look like child killers?

    The point about Gaza being a small and densely populated area is a good one. It is difficult for either party to adhere to the high standards of warfare that would be easier in a more traditional battlefield scenario. Civilians are probably guaranteed to end up in the line of fire. Then again, soldiers operating in a densely populated area where any civilians (or people without a uniform or military formation) may turn out to be fighters is extremely stressful to soldiers, and I understand that they need some form of guarantee if searching for enemy fighters or munitions.

  20. #160
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    It doesn’t work as a deterrent, the Israelis don’t care, it does work as painting Israel as child killers, which they are.

    What always confuses me is why people choose a side here. Tell me I have to choose between the 3rd Reich and the Taliban and my take is wipe them both from the earth.
    My advice: if you feel morally & intellectually exhausted, simply stay away and think some more. It did help me, for example. There is no point in throwing in your "2 cent" on a basis like this. I'm sorry, bud: those comparisons are nonsensical and yeah... kinda childish.

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