The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[enoch]

Stay safe. No government is honest. Israel would cross any line to protect itself. Never doubt it.

[Gromovnik]

Neither might those blindly contradicting them. Feel free to cite a credible source denying their claims regarding the number of rockets fired.

You know, those who made claims should be the ones to prove them. I'm simply sceptical of an apartheid regime's propaganda.

[Cope]

You know, those who made claims should be the ones to prove them. I'm simply sceptical of an apartheid regime's propaganda.

It was not scepticism but a plain statement of denial. See Dan's post (#273) for supporting evidence.

[sumskilz]

You know, those who made claims should be the ones to prove them. I'm simply sceptical of an apartheid regime's propaganda.

Israel and the Palestinian territories are media saturated. No one reasonable seriously doubts that the numbers of rockets counted by Israeli officials are at least roughly correct. They aren't hard to see or hear or feel. Tel Aviv has received several barrages of 100+ rockets. I can't say I was able to count every single explosion from my bomb shelter in north Tel Aviv, but I'm reasonably certain those numbers are about right.

Based on the range from Gaza, most would have been the A-120:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And the R-160:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

From the New York Times, March 13th 2021:

The number of rockets fired each day in the most recent spate of hostilities is unprecedented. And while the majority of the rockets appear to be aimed at population centers across southern and central Israel, longer-range rockets were launched at Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. This is a sign, experts say, that Hamas has not only managed to replenish its arsenal but has improved its capabilities.

Some Israeli commanders have expressed surprise at both the intensity and range of the Gaza rockets.

An analysis by Michael Armstrong, an associate professor of operations research at Brock University in Canada, found a significant increase in the rate of fire. Using numbers from the Israel Defense Forces, Mr. Armstrong, who studies these weapons, cited 470 rockets fired from Gaza during the first 24 hours of the most recent escalation compared to a peak of 192 rockets per day in 2014 and 312 in 2012.

Hamas, he says, also launched more long-range attacks with 130 rockets fired at Tel Aviv late Tuesday, representing close to 17 percent of all fired until that point. In 2014 that rate was at eight percent and in 2012 at less than one percent.

“We still don’t know if Hamas has more long-range rockets, or if they are choosing to use their best stuff first,” Mr. Armstrong said.

Israel has successfully thwarted many of the rockets fired so far with its Iron Dome antimissile defense system, destroying them before they land. But an increasing number of the rockets have slammed into Israeli territory, some with deadly effect. Experts say the militants now know that the intensity of the barrages — and the multiple directions from which they launch — have exposed vulnerabilities in the Israeli defense.

“It seems they’re looking to overload or saturate Israel’s interceptive system, which can only handle a certain number of attacks at once.” Mr. Armstrong said.

The Gaza militants have openly attributed their success to help supplied by Iran, which Israel regards as its most potent foreign adversary. Iranian officials, too, are not shy about their relationship with Hamas.

Speaking to a large gathering in May 2019, the leader of Hamas in Gaza, Yahya Sinwar, could not have been more explicit in acknowledging Iran’s critical role in assisting Hamas.

“If it wasn’t for Iran’s support,” he said, “we would not have had these capabilities.”

Along with providing smuggled weapons and equipment, Iran has been focused on training to help Hamas upgrade local production, extend the range of rockets and improve their accuracy, according to both Palestinian and Israeli officials and experts.

“It is a huge improvement going from firing one or two rockets at a time to launching 130 rockets in five minutes,” said Rami Abu Zubaydah, a Gaza-based military expert, referring to the frequency of fire seen in the past few days.

“Most weapons are now manufactured in Gaza, using technical expertise from Iran,” he said.

Regarding media saturation in Israel/Palestine, an article from 2014:

Staffing is the best measure of the importance of a story to a particular news organization. When I was a correspondent at the AP, the agency had more than 40 staffers covering Israel and the Palestinian territories. That was significantly more news staff than the AP had in China, Russia, or India, or in all of the 50 countries of sub-Saharan Africa combined. It was higher than the total number of news-gathering employees in all the countries where the uprisings of the “Arab Spring” eventually erupted.

To offer a sense of scale: Before the outbreak of the civil war in Syria, the permanent AP presence in that country consisted of a single regime-approved stringer. The AP’s editors believed, that is, that Syria’s importance was less than one-40th that of Israel. I don’t mean to pick on the AP—the agency is wholly average, which makes it useful as an example. The big players in the news business practice groupthink, and these staffing arrangements were reflected across the herd. Staffing levels in Israel have decreased somewhat since the Arab uprisings began, but remain high. And when Israel flares up, as it did this summer, reporters are often moved from deadlier conflicts. Israel still trumps nearly everything else.

[Cope]

Israel and the Palestinian territories are media saturated. No one reasonable seriously doubts that the numbers of rockets counted by Israeli officials are at least roughly correct. They aren't hard to see or hear or feel. Tel Aviv has received several barrages of 100+ rockets. I can't say I was able to count every single explosion from my bomb shelter in north Tel Aviv, but I'm reasonably certain those numbers are about right.

This also being a reason to suppose that the strike against the high-rise in Gaza wasn't an attempt to destroy press infrastructure, as is being claimed by some.

[Gromovnik]

So, let me guess: Hamas was using journalists as a human shield?

[Cope]

So, let me guess: Hamas was using journalists as a human shield?

It is unlikely that Hamas chose to operate out that building by chance. Finding the accusation of civilian shielding banal doesn't make it any less true.

[Gromovnik]

But the thing is, that's not even remotely true.

[Cope]

There isn't any particular value in these sort of reactionary denials. It's true that we cannot confirm Israel's claims whilst the intel allegedly justifying the the strike (which has been shared with the US) remains classified. At the same time, it would be bizarre and self-defeating for Israel to have fabricated the allegations for the reasons outlined in this post.

[PointOfViewGun]

It was quite obvious that Israel wants to make sure Gaza is a war zone. The destruction of the high-rise buildings was part of that strategy. The one with the press agencies was not the only high-rise Israel destroyed. If you watch the call with the destroyed tower's owner you see that the real concern is not to destroy the Hamas involvement. The owner begs for more time so that journalists can get their equipment but while the Israeli authorities see no problem with wasting time bickering on the phone they don't let the journalists go in to get their equipment. The point of destroying all these structures is not to kill Hamas militants. Israel is quite capable of conducting point strikes without much of civilian casualty. The point is not to destroy missiles as well. We are quick to forget that Hamas is living under Israeli blockade. Those rockets shouldn't have been there in the first place. Israel destroyed hundreds of buildings in the recent years and we are supposed to believe that each of these were Hamas HQs.

We are also supposed to see Israel as an angel because they tap the building with a mortar before they bomb it to hell. Yes, we're supposed to be happy with Israel because they bomb a place with a small bomb, potentially harming or killing few people, so that when they bomb people's livelihoods to hell more people are not around. Confining people to a small area such as Gaza and bombing their lives like this is no charity work. It's still terrorizing the people of Gaza. They have nothing but to live with that. They can't even leave. Meanwhile, Israeli builds more and more Jewish only residential areas in West Bank and East Jerusalem. Oh no, don't look there. Look at how Hamas is firing rockets. Why would Israel want to get rid of Hamas?

[nhytgbvfeco2]

It was quite obvious that Israel wants to make sure Gaza is a war zone. The destruction of the high-rise buildings was part of that strategy. The one with the press agencies was not the only high-rise Israel destroyed. If you watch the call with the destroyed tower's owner you see that the real concern is not to destroy the Hamas involvement. The owner begs for more time so that journalists can get their equipment but while the Israeli authorities see no problem with wasting time bickering on the phone they don't let the journalists go in to get their equipment. The point of destroying all these structures is not to kill Hamas militants. Israel is quite capable of conducting point strikes without much of civilian casualty. The point is not to destroy missiles as well. We are quick to forget that Hamas is living under Israeli blockade. Those rockets shouldn't have been there in the first place. Israel destroyed hundreds of buildings in the recent years and we are supposed to believe that each of these were Hamas HQs.

We are also supposed to see Israel as an angel because they tap the building with a mortar before they bomb it to hell. Yes, we're supposed to be happy with Israel because they bomb a place with a small bomb, potentially harming or killing few people, so that when they bomb people's livelihoods to hell more people are not around. Confining people to a small area such as Gaza and bombing their lives like this is no charity work. It's still terrorizing the people of Gaza. They have nothing but to live with that. They can't even leave. Meanwhile, Israeli builds more and more Jewish only residential areas in West Bank and East Jerusalem. Oh no, don't look there. Look at how Hamas is firing rockets. Why would Israel want to get rid of Hamas?

I'll be happy to reply to the rest of your post, but first: Will you denounce Hamas as a terrorist organisation? Yes or no?

[Ludicus]

The root causes of the current conflict are well known. First, the eviction of Palestinian families in the Muslim quarter of SheikJerrah, in East Jerusalem, in favour of Israeli nationalists, under the pretext of ownership prior to the foundation of the State of Israel - which immediately had two readings: for Israelis it was a legal question of property rights; for Palestinians a political question of the Judaism of Jerusalem. Secondly, the restrictions imposed by the Israeli police on the traditional Muslim gatherings at the gates of Damascus during the Ramadan period.And finally, the control of access to the Aqsa Mosque, the third holy place for Muslims, considered humiliating by Palestinians and which brings to mind the Israeli occupation of East Jerusalem and the thousands of Palestinian refugees.
So what are we seeing now? Clashes and vandalism in the mixed cities. Rockets by Hamas on Israel. Israeli missiles on the Gaza Strip. Civilian casualties. Disproportionately more on the Palestinian Palestinian side than Israeli. Suffering, death and resentment on both sides.
Who gains from this war? the radicals on both sides-who legitimize each other. In both narratives, what is at stake is one's own identity and the negation of the identity of the other.Only the recognition of the identity of the other and the acceptance of its legitimate existence can pave the way to peace and a two-state solution.
--------------
Even leaving aside the political interpretations of both sides, this interactive infographic is enlightening . Palestine Shrinking / Expanding Israel — Visualizing Palestine

[Prodromos]

https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2021...ve-restaurant/

Witnesses said a mob of pro-Palestinians attacked a group of Jewish men who were dining at the restaurant. Cell phone video showed a group of men get out of the car and start to attack them while yelling racial slurs.

One of the diners, who is not Jewish, told CBSLA a caravan waving pro-Palestinian flags approached and then began throwing bottles at him and the group he was dining with. The man said he is a photographer and the group was meeting at the restaurant to plan a wedding.

The man said he was physically attacked when he tried to defend the group. He said the men used anti-Jewish profanity. He said he was pepper sprayed during the attack and had to go to the hospital. …

Meanwhile, police are also investigating a security video recorded Monday night which appears to show an Orthodox Jewish man being chased by a caravan of people waving Palestinian flags near Rosewood and La Brea avenues. The man escaped and was not hurt.

It's just criticism of Israel, bro

[PointOfViewGun]

Gaza Lives Erased: Israel Is Wiping Out Entire Palestinian Families on Purpose

Fifteen Palestinian nuclear and extended families lost at least three, and in general more, of their members, in the Israeli shelling of the Gaza Strip during the week from May 10 through to Monday afternoon. Parents and children, babies, grandparents, siblings and nephews and nieces died together when Israel bombed their homes, which collapsed over them. Insofar as is known, no advance warning was given so that they could evacuate the targeted houses.

On Saturday, a representative of the Palestinian Health Ministry brought listed the names of 12 families who were killed, each one at its home, each one in a single bombing. Since then, in one air raid before dawn on Sunday, which lasted 70 minutes and was directed at three houses on Al Wehda Street in the Rimal neighborhood of Gaza, three families numbering 38 people in total were killed. Some of the bodies were found on Sunday morning. Palestinian rescue forces only managed to find the rest of the bodies and pull them out from the rubble only on Sunday evening.

Wiping out entire families in Israeli bombings was one of the characteristics of the war in 2014. In the roughly 50 days of the war then, UN figures say that 142 Palestinian families were erased (742 people in total). The numerous incidents then and today attest that these were not mistakes: and that the bombing of a house while all its residents are in it follows a decision from higher up, backed by the examination and approval of military jurists.

Israel and its supporters can only hide behind "Hamas was using that building as their HQ" for so long...

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Gaza Lives Erased: Israel Is Wiping Out Entire Palestinian Families on Purpose


Israel and its supporters can only hide behind "Hamas was using that building as their HQ" for so long...

Hey bro, can you condemn Hamas as a terrorist organisation real quick?

Yeah, Israel is killing families on purpose. That's why after nearly 2 weeks of bombing one of the worlds most densely populated areas of the world it only killed 217 people in an area with a population of over 2 million, for an average of 16.7 people a day. This makes perfect sense.

Am I to understand from your lack of condemnation of Hamas so far that you support indiscriminately firing unguided rockets at cities containing millions of civilians? Firing anti-tank missiles at civilians? Shooting rockets from schools and densely packed neighbourhoods?

[chilon]

Hey bro, can you condemn Hamas as a terrorist organisation real quick?

Yeah, Israel is killing families on purpose. That's why after nearly 2 weeks of bombing one of the worlds most densely populated areas of the world it only killed 217 people in an area with a population of over 2 million, for an average of 16.7 people a day. This makes perfect sense.

Am I to understand from your lack of condemnation of Hamas so far that you support indiscriminately firing unguided rockets at cities containing millions of civilians? Firing anti-tank missiles at civilians? Shooting rockets from schools and densely packed neighbourhoods?

Hey bro, can you condemn Israel killing civilians as well?

Both sides should be condemned for wanton disregard of civilian lives. Both sides are at fault here and its why the international community needs to step in and help negotiate a peace that both sides are guilty of violating.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Hey bro, can you condemn Israel killing civilians as well?

Sure: I condemn any intentional killing of civilians by Israel.

[Ludicus]

Israel not ruling out 'conquering' Gaza strip, says Netanyahu

Although this is a serious development, it comes as no surprise (1). It is not a question of how, but a question of when,

Tensions Among Democrats NY Times

Leaders of the country’s biggest pro-Israel lobby, American Israel Public Affairs Committee, or AIPAC, say they are confident of their support from the White House and Capitol Hill, pointing to continued congressional backing of several billion dollars in aid to Israel annually.

(1) A year and a half ago, Nethanyahu said Israel Has 'Full Right' to Annex Strategic Jordan

...if it chose to

[Cope]

Israel not ruling out 'conquering' Gaza strip, says Netanyahu

Although this is a serious development, it comes as no surprise (1). It is not a question of how, but a question of when,

Tensions Among Democrats NY Times


(1) A year and a half ago, Nethanyahu said Israel Has 'Full Right' to Annex Strategic Jordan

Not sure how Israel can conquer territory it supposedly already occupies. Netanyahu was referring to the possibility that Hamas could be conquered as opposed to deterred/contained.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Israel not ruling out 'conquering' Gaza strip, says Netanyahu

If you can think of a better way to get rid of Hamas let me know. Of course Netanyahu won't do it, however.