The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[Gromovnik]

I'm not surprised that the world's most horrible settler regime is supporting its young pupil.

[Gromovnik]

You know, Israel might not be completely honest here.

[Cope]

You know, Israel might not be completely honest here.

Neither might those blindly contradicting them. Feel free to cite a credible source denying their claims regarding the number of rockets fired.

[Hobbes]

No.

that's what you're saying lol.

[Cope]

that's what you're saying lol.

No, it isn't.

[Mithradates]

wanted to show his vigor for another disproportionate show of force: the bombing of refugee camps and the headquarters of Associated Press and Al Jazeera.

What would be the "proportionate show of force"? To fire 3000 random rockets back to Gaza in return for those rockets they fired at Israel?
Do you see that happening? The Israeli answer is not disproportionate.

The difference in casualties is because the IDF is doing its job to defend Israeli civilians while Hamas, which is a terrorist organisation by the way, is using their own people as human shields.

[alhoon]

Neither might those blindly contradicting them. Feel free to cite a credible source denying their claims regarding the number of rockets fired.

OK. The Associated Press had a building in bombed under allegations that Terrorists were using it. The Associated Press went "WTF?!"

That's an example of Israel not being honest.

[Cope]

OK. The Associated Press had a building in bombed under allegations that Terrorists were using it. The Associated Press went "WTF?!"

That's an example of Israel not being honest.

There has been no confirmation that the allegations were either untrue or unfounded. The AP denied knowledge of Hamas' supposed presence there, but that doesn't prove that Israel was being dishonest.

[PointOfViewGun]

On the front of Gaza, what we're seeing is the Dahiya doctrine in play right now where civilian infrastructure is targeted with disproportionate force. It's a simple case of state terrorism. It keeps Gazans terrorized and radicalized. In desperation, rockets fly out and Israel gets its excuse to keep on building settlements in West Bank.

[Gaius Baltar]

...rockets fly out.............It's a simple case of state terrorism. It keeps Gazan's terrorized and radicalized. This is a more representative statement of the reality of the situation.

Hamas is even shelling the relief gates when food and medical supplies are attempting to enter the Gaza strip. They are literally holding the civilian population hostage while they fire indiscriminately at civilians, even killing some of their own in the process.

As I have said before, this will only end when the Gaza strip is demilitarized and a functional civilian government put into place that spends money on economic infrastructure rather than tunnels, missiles and propaganda.

[alhoon]

There has been no confirmation that the allegations were either untrue or unfounded.

Allow me to stop you there. You cannot prove that something doesn't exist. Thus, in a trial the prosecution tries to prove the accused is guilty and the defenders try to defend him or her. Not the other way around.

It has also been no confirmation that there is not a massive ISIS weapons arsenal below the hospital built by Saudi Arabia. Should Israel bomb it too without concrete evidence that what I said (out of my mind) is true?

[Cope]

Allow me to stop you there. You cannot prove that something doesn't exist. Thus, in a trial the prosecution tries to prove the accused is guilty and the defenders try to defend him or her. Not the other way around.

It has also been no confirmation that there is not a massive ISIS weapons arsenal below the hospital built by Saudi Arabia. Should Israel bomb it too without concrete evidence that what I said (out of my mind) is true?

Israel claims to have intelligence justifying the strike. That this information - which has been shared with the Americans - has yet to be released publicly doesn't mean that Israel is being dishonest. If, after an investigation, it is determined that there was no reasonable basis for the strike then there would be cause to label Israel as dishonest.

[Sir Adrian]

The idea that the IDF bombing schools, hospitals and media centers is in any way justified is absolutely vomit inducing. Yes, Hamas are terrorists, but acting like a terrorist in order to "defend" yourself does not make you a good guy, it makes you just another terrorist.

[sumskilz]

Allow me to stop you there. You cannot prove that something doesn't exist. Thus, in a trial the prosecution tries to prove the accused is guilty and the defenders try to defend him or her. Not the other way around.

It has also been no confirmation that there is not a massive ISIS weapons arsenal below the hospital built by Saudi Arabia. Should Israel bomb it too without concrete evidence that what I said (out of my mind) is true?

Considering the high PR cost, which was entirely foreseeable, they would have had to have been reasonably confident that the building contained a high value target (or targets), otherwise they would have been complete fools to destroy it.

This was how it was described to an Israeli audience:

Brigadier-General Hidai Zilberman, chief Israeli military spokesman, told Israel's Army Radio on Tuesday that Hamas military intelligence offices were in the building, as well as assets of Islamic Jihad.

"These are people tasked with collecting information about IDF combat troops and the southern (Israeli) communities, in order to carry out all the attacks," Zilberman said of those allegedly based in the building. "These are the people who directed the terrorist attacks on the communities of the Gaza periphery."

Blinken says U.S. received more information on Gaza high-rise bombing

And by Ron Dermer speaking to CNN:

“The evidence has already been provided, as I understand it, to US intelligence officials. And that was a site where you had Hamas intelligence in that building, and they were engaged in activity that actually would have, as far as I understand, would have undermined our ability to actually target effectively and also undermined our ability to intercept incoming rockets.”

[Cope]

The idea that the IDF bombing schools, hospitals and media centers is in any way justified is absolutely vomit inducing. Yes, Hamas are terrorists, but acting like a terrorist in order to "defend" yourself does not make you a good guy, it makes you just another terrorist.

Issuing a warning to avoid civilian causalities (which the IDF did prior to the high-rise bombing) is the opposite of acting like a terrorist.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

On the front of Gaza, what we're seeing is the Dahiya doctrine in play right now where civilian infrastructure is targeted with disproportionate force.

Because all of their military infrastructure is hidden within the civilian infrastructure.
What force would you consider proportionate? Should Israel also fire 3,000 unguided missiles into Gaza?

It's a simple case of state terrorism. It keeps Gazans terrorized and radicalized. In desperation, rockets fly out and Israel gets its excuse to keep on building settlements in West Bank.

Speaking of terror: will you condemn Hamas as a terrorist organisation?

[Sir Adrian]

Terrorists also issue warnings before bombing public places.

[alhoon]

Terrorists also issue warnings before bombing public places.

Terrorists do that? Then they are arsonists and criminals, but not terrorists IMO.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

You know, Israel might not be completely honest here.

https://www.ynet.co.il/digital/techn...cle/SyN00yebFO
Watch the video at the top of the article, shows all missile launches up until the 18th of may. My city alone has been shot with 190 rockets so far.

[antaeus]

Because all of their military infrastructure is hidden within the civilian infrastructure.
What force would you consider proportionate? Should Israel also fire 3,000 unguided missiles into Gaza?

Speaking of terror: will you condemn Hamas as a terrorist organisation?

There is a certain helplessness in the Palestinian situation. It's a chicken and egg behavioural race to the bottom that has been going on for more than a hundred years now, and judging the situation based on the immediate violence is to dismiss the source of grievance - and thus be unable to solve it.

Certainly, Israel can't sit back and allow themselves to be rocketed with impunity. The only pro-active response they can give is always going to be disproportionate. Israel is a heavily militarised fully developed state, Gaza is an impoverished over populated slum ghetto.

Hamas is both a democratically elected government and a terrorist organisation - making a forced-choice answer about their status difficult. They are the only available representative of the people of Gaza. They believe they are acting in defence of their people, and the people largely support them. So to a degree, sitting back and labelling them as terrorist is pointless - negotiation with them is the only long term option for Israel that doesn't lead to extended shockingly expensive military occupation of an impoverished territory.

The people of Gaza have serious restrictions on what they can do to improve their situation. Israel blocks their ability to improve infrastructure and uses this as leverage - I don't think the rocket attacks are productive response to grievance (or ethical), but with the UN toothless I also don't see many other ways for Hamas to confront Israel.

Certainly when an organisation is both civilian and military in nature, and over-powered by their hegemon to to the point of futility, there are few military options for them but to use empathy and a sense of humanity as a weapon. I can't justify it, but I can understand it.