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Thread: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

  1. #261
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    I'm fairly sure Prodromos was expressing disgust rather than trying to discredit a position, but I can only speak with certainty about my own post, which was utilizing the situation to illustrate an independent point.
    Prodromos' motives when seeking to discredit through hypocrisy are irrelevant. Prodromos hasn't felt strongly enough about prior incidents over the last couple of months to mention them in the thread. Prodromos only brought them up in response to someone else expressing disgust at another issue, clearly to throw shade.

    Like I said, the accusation of hypocrisy might be justified, but that doesn't itself justify attempting to downplay one issue for another.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Considering the ongoing situation in Israel/Palestine, especially Jerusalem, over the last few months, the incident is barely worth having an opinion about, but more importantly, it can't even really be understood in isolation.

    The proximate cause of the current flare-up, is that in the view of many Muslim Palestinians, the presence of Jews defiles al-Haram al-Sharif. That is the Temple Mount, the holiest site in Judaism, on top of which the Dome of the Rock now stands. This is not something new. In fact, in 1929 Arabs killed 133 Jews and injured 339 more because they were upset that some Jews had set some chairs near it. Fast forward to Ramadan every year, but most relevantly this year, and that's when the trouble started. The issue is that many Palestinian men feel that the appropriate way to observe Ramadan is to hurl rocks and bricks down on top of the heads Jews coming to visit the Western Wall. Naturally, the Jerusalem police intervened by clearing the rioters off the top of Temple Mount, but in doing so, since many of them are Jews, they defiled al-Haram al-Sharif even further, leading to yet more Muslim Palestinian outrage. Naturally, the rioters didn't just leave the Temple Mount, but rather physical confrontations ensued, with many rioters and police officers alike being injured, some seriously. So this has gone on day after day, even after the end of Ramadan, for six weeks now.
    Why arbitrarily limit the expanded conversation to the last few months? I'm sure Israel was getting bad press over their treatment of people under their duty of care before this arbitrary date.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Meanwhile, many Palestinians have taken it upon themselves to kill random Israeli civilians due to being upset about Jews defiling al-Haram al-Sharif, and this has gone on all over the country. A few students at the university I work have been killed. Of course, the Israeli authorities have tried to track down and take into custody those who have carried out or assisted the terror attacks, and this sometimes leads them into the Palestinian territories where more violence ensues. Shireen Abu Akleh was killed during one such confrontation. It's not yet known if this was by an Israeli or a Palestinian bullet, but it's extremely unlikely that either side would have shot her deliberately.

    So then comes the day of her funeral, and her coffin is taken against her family's will by demonstrators who want to make a big political show out of her death. No doubt many of these demonstrators are the same rioters who have been battling the Jerusalem police at the Temple Mount on a daily basis. You can see in the video that around the coffin, there are no women, no older men, no children. It wasn't a funeral procession, at least not the one planned by her family and her Melkite community.

    Maybe it would have been better for the police not to intervene, but they are always in a lose/lose situation. Someone will be irate either way, and one of the typical accusations against them is that they allegedly don't enforce the law in predominately Arab areas because they are "racist". In any case, there was apparently a standoff with the demonstrators who had seized the casket. At this point, the police were no doubt expecting violence yet again. Supposedly, they tried to get the demonstrators to hand over the casket, when they say rocks were thrown at them, only one projectile is seen being thrown at them in the video. It looks like one officer charged forward, then those close to him, then the rest. It's not clear whether this was a leader giving an order, an officer that was hit by the projectile, or just some hothead, but in any case, the police are trained to advance in a group and to try shock rioters into retreating. If they get isolated, there is a real danger of them being seriously injured or killed, so that's the way they proceeded.

    Did it look like excessive force on the video? Yeah, especially because most of the demonstrators did retreat. Although some did fight and some threw projectiles. Was it possibly started by some hothead officer looking for a fight? Maybe. I'd say it probably would have been better for everyone if the officers could have managed to show more restraint, but considering the situation, the fact that many in their ranks have already been injured over the last few weeks, and that down in the thick of things none of them would have had the clear overall view that we have watching it from the camera, it makes sense that they acted as they did.

    The Israeli police commissioner and public security minister have ordered an investigation. It's unlikely that any of the officers will face any sort of serious disciplinary action. It's more likely that recommendations will be drawn up that will be meant to prevent a similar situation from happening in the future. This is the correct course of action in my opinion, and I couldn't care less about the outrage around the world, for the same reason that I don't have excessive empathy for those who would kill me, my family, and many of my friends, simply because of our ethnicity.
    "Those oppressed people deserved to be bashed while they carried their stupid coffin, they were probably going to be violent at some point anyway, how dare they resort to violence when seeking agency"

    I am highly dubious that you're able to look at this issue with your usually even hand.
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  2. #262
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    "Those oppressed people deserved to be bashed while they carried their stupid coffin, they were probably going to be violent at some point anyway, how dare they resort to violence when seeking agency"

    I am highly dubious that you're able to look at this issue with your usually even hand.
    If we believe the reports, it was not their coffin. Stealing a corpse for a political protest isn't agency, corpse stealers are literal ghouls and should be shot.

    Settlers and terrorists bait the police and one another to create riots like this. The cops don't sit down and decide one morning "Ok shoot the Christian Palestinian reporter, and attack the funeral party afterwards, then home for the Bar Mitzvah at 4". Only an idiot would believe that.

    There are simple solutions like "kill all of one side, then there will be peace" or there are messy ugly political solutions where not one side or the other all die. The messy ugly solutions need patience and less murder, I'll go with messy and ugly.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  3. #263
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    There are simple solutions like "kill all of one side, then there will be peace" or there are messy ugly political solutions where not one side or the other all die. The messy ugly solutions need patience and less murder, I'll go with messy and ugly.
    Certainly! . The problem with the messy solution, is it requires a critical mass of opinion on both sides to stop saying silly self-defeating things like "I don't have excessive empathy for those who would kill me, my family, and many of my friends", often while some amongst those others they refer to will still try to kill them, their family, and their friends. Easy for me to say. Hard for Sumskilz to do.

    I don't know if I would be that brave. The most difficult thing I have to do today is to decide whether I have lunch at the Lebanese place just around the corner, or do I go buy a loaf of bread at Coles and make my own. I think I'm going for the latter TBF. I make a good sandwich.
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  4. #264

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    Why arbitrarily limit the expanded conversation to the last few months?
    Because that's when the recent flare-up of highly interconnected events began. Prior to that there was a bit of a lull.

    If it were up to me to begin a conversation about the conflict with someone who hasn't witnessed it for years first hand, this is where I'd start: An Insider’s Guide to the Most Important Story on Earth (the title is semi-ironic)
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  5. #265
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Because that's when the recent flare-up of highly interconnected events began. Prior to that there was a bit of a lull.

    If it were up to me to begin a conversation about the conflict with someone who hasn't witnessed it for years first hand, this is where I'd start: An Insider’s Guide to the Most Important Story on Earth (the title is semi-ironic)
    Yeah... nah. Aaaanother one of those "this is all you need to know about the Israel/Palestine issue... " articles. I'll give it a light skim or a pass.

    I bet if you ask the perpetrators of the recent 'highly interconnected' events, on both sides... what their motivations for being involved in these 'highly interconnected' events was... I reckon you'd get an earful of justifications for violence that entirely blames others for their situation all the way back. What I know is, statements like those you made in your last post, only contribute to a solution when those you're talking with either leave or die. I.e. capitulate. That isn't going to happen.

    otherwise, it seems to me that those of you who have witnessed this first hand for years have done an atrocious job of untangling things.
    Last edited by antaeus; May 16, 2022 at 02:15 AM.
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  6. #266

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    Aaaanother one of those "this is all you need to know about the Israel/Palestine issue... " articles.
    An incorrect assumption. It is an article written by a former Associated Press correspondent about the way Western media covers the conflict. Whether or not you accept his conclusions, it would explain to you the reasons why opinions about this coverage among the vast majority of Israeli Jews ranges from indifference to disdain.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    I bet if you ask the perpetrators of the recent 'highly interconnected' events, on both sides... what their motivations for being involved in these 'highly interconnected' events was... I reckon you'd get an earful of justifications for violence that entirely blames others for their situation all the way back.
    With the arguable exception of the casket incident, recent Israeli actions have been security responses to specific violent incidences. That is what they would tell you. It is not necessary to ask the Palestinian side. They have been forthcoming, and the reason they give is precisely what I referred to as the “proximate cause of the current flare-up”.

    For example:

    The attack came at the end of Israel’s Independence Day, and followed a wave of terror attacks in Israel and the West Bank in recent weeks, and repeated threats by Palestinian terror groups over the Temple Mount in Jerusalem

    The Hamas terror group called the attack “a heroic operation” in response to Jewish Israelis visiting the Temple Mount holy site earlier Thursday. Hundreds visited the flashpoint hilltop, which is Judaism’s holiest site and Islam’s third-holiest, in the first time since Passover. The site was closed to Jewish visitors for the end of Ramadan.

    Earlier Thursday, Palestinians clashed with police on the Temple Mount after the site was reopened for Jews after the two-week closure. Hamas had threatened to retaliate if Jewish visitors were allowed to “storm” the holy site.

    Our people will continue their struggle and their defense of the Al-Aqsa Mosque with every means. Their blows will strike the Zionists and the settlers wherever they are,” said Hamas spokesperson Abd al-Latif al-Qanou.

    In a speech last Saturday, Hamas’s Gaza chief Yahya Sinwar threatened violent consequences should Israelis continue visiting the site. He also urged Palestinians to strike Israelis with whatever they had — including axes. “Let everyone who has a rifle, ready it. And if you don’t have a rifle, ready your cleaver or an ax, or a knife,” Sinwar said.

    “This is the practical implementation of what the resistance warned: Al-Aqsa is a red line,” Hamas official Hazem Qasim said Thursday.

    Islamic Jihad also praised the Elad attack as a “heroic operation.”

    For settler gangs to defile Al-Aqsa — this crosses red lines,” senior terror group member Mohammad Hmeid said.

    The attack came as tensions have risen sharply between Israel and the Palestinians in recent weeks, against the backdrop of repeated terror attacks in Israel and the West Bank that left 16 others dead.

    Thursday’s attack brought the number of people killed in terror attacks in Israel and the West Bank since March 22 this year, to 19.
    When the perpetrators of this particular attack were apprehended, they cited the exact same reason.

    But surely you know the difference between “proximate” and “ultimate”, so I can only assume that you aren’t reading my posts very carefully. Likewise, you “translated” my opinion in support of Israeli efforts to investigate ways to prevent a similar situation to the casket incident from happening again as: “Those oppressed people deserved to be bashed while they carried their stupid coffin, they were probably going to be violent at some point anyway, how dare they resort to violence when seeking agency”, which is quite an interpolation.

    Every Jew in Israel, except for those on the extreme right, recognizes that the Palestinians have legitimate grievances, but this reality is simply not actionable as long as the minimum compromise acceptable to the majority of Palestinians amounts to making it extremely easy for Palestinian militants to kill Jews en masse. And since there is no Palestinian leadership with the capability or the legitimacy to prevent this, the inevitable Israeli response would bring the situation back to square one, with considerably more dead on both sides.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  7. #267
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    But surely you know the difference between “proximate” and “ultimate”, so I can only assume that you aren’t reading my posts very carefully.
    Or, I didn't see anything new that I really need to engage with. The perspective hasn't changed, just the window dressing.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Every Jew in Israel, except for those on the extreme right, recognizes that the Palestinians have legitimate grievances, but this reality is simply not actionable as long as the minimum compromise acceptable to the majority of Palestinians amounts to making it extremely easy for Palestinian militants to kill Jews en masse. And since there is no Palestinian leadership with the capability or the legitimacy to prevent this, the inevitable Israeli response would bring the situation back to square one, with considerably more dead on both sides.
    At first I was going to add another quip about ignoring everything before the but (metaphorically speaking)

    Like you I come from a country that was built on the bones and ashes of those who my ancestors took land from, so I do have some vague understanding of long term grievance and inter-generational grief, the causes and effects of inter-generational poverty, the dangers of allowing the loudest, angriest voices to dominate dialogue, and how a culture experiencing loss can self-defeatingly define itself as oppositional at all costs. But at this point, I see a seemingly reasonable request by genteel middle class folks (generalising for effect), sitting there in their 4 bedroom suburban villa on land that was taken a few generations back from others at gun point saying "if only they would just stop being angry at us and behave themselves, then we could listen better to their inter-generational grief" as similar to Russian requests for Ukrainians to stop fighting so they can have peace, or patronising.

    I know I am misrepresenting your words, and not even bothering to do much more than skim your posts... I don't have an alternate solution to your perspective, because the different peoples of the region that have culturally evolved over the past century or so as damaged by others are unlikely to be able to solve things. There have been watershed moments past 40 years, but they were hijacked. Palestinian territories are broken beyond internal repair without significant help which they are incapable of receiving, and Israel the country itself has to an extent, self-defined as a place that will not tolerate threats or offer concessions lightly.

    I would like you to speculate as to how, based on the current situation, you would solve the ongoing Palestinian problem, taking into account what you know of Israeli society and politics, and what you know is achievable within Palestinian society and governance... I would offer that thanks to the degradation of trust over the last half century, the abusive interference of outside powers, the periodic swings in the political leanings of the Israeli Government, and the ongoing and compounding affects of inter-generational grief, that there is no solution and Israel is stuck managing the giant outdoor prison it has created, doing its best to keep a lid on things while being harshly judged by the world every time a police officer raises a batton, but ignored when attacked. I.e. Get used to it.
    Last edited by antaeus; May 16, 2022 at 07:17 AM.

  8. #268
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Relax, people.Palestine will win the next Eurovision song contest.
    ---
    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    how..you would solve the ongoing Palestinian problem
    According to sumskilz, as he pointed out (a few years ago) there are no Palestinians, problem solved.

    --
    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    It’s notable that this incident was deemed worthy of bumping the thread, yet none among the constant stream of attacks against Israeli civilians was
    I had no idea that a coffin of a journalist murdered in cold blood by Israeli soldiers was a danger to Israeli lives.
    ---

    The legacy of the most prominent Palestianian-American (and Christian) journalist



    Around minute 10
    “What a strange (revealing) thing for an israeli military spokesman to say as preemptive defense of killing a Palestinian journalist:
    Kochav described Abu Aqleh as “but even if soldiers shot at...( the Al Jazeera American-Palestinian journalist) filming and working for a media outlet amidst armed Palestinians: “They are armed with cameras, if you’will permit me to say so
    Last edited by Ludicus; May 16, 2022 at 09:52 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  9. #269

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Around minute 10
    Alternatively, you could go to the original source, and read it with the part they skipped:

    “But even if soldiers shot at — or, God forbid, hurt — someone who was not involved, this happened in battle, during a firefight, where this Palestinian is with the shooters. So this thing can happen,” Israeli military spokesperson Ran Kochav told Army Radio.

    Kochav described Abu Akleh as “filming and working for a media outlet amidst armed Palestinians. They’re armed with cameras, if you’ll permit me to say so.”
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  10. #270
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Alternatively, you could go to the original source, and read it with the part they skipped:
    You didn't watch the video.No, they didn't skipped that part.It's there,minute 10. But its completely irrelevant: I skipped the irrelevant part.The relevant part is Kochav's description of the Journalists : "They’re armed with cameras, if you’ll permit me to say so.”
    ---
    Its also relevant the fact in your opinion, there are no Palestinians.Arabs only, that's all. You haven't denied that. Something along these lines,

    The mixed legacy of Golda Meir, Israel's first female PM - Al ...
    “There were no such thing as Palestinians,” she was quoted as saying in the Sunday Times and Washington Post in June 1969.
    “When was there an independent Palestinian people with a Palestinian state? … It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist,” Meir said.
    ----
    Author, Kathleen Christison, CIA political analyst from 1964 to 1979,
    Myths about Palestinians - jstor

    If some Israelis were embarrassed by Meir’s statement, it was not because they viewed it as false, but simply because it too baldly asserted a sentiment that most Israelis deep down wish were true. Many Israelis, of course, have no such compunctions-for example right wing settlers on the West Bank who see Jewish settlement as s God-given right.

    A settler spokesman, Schifra Blass, told a group of American visitors in October 1985 that Palestinians have no right whatsoever and that if they exist at all, they should go to Jordan. But the majority prefers to justify its beliefs with a kind of mythology that attempts to deny the legitimacy of Palestinian nationalism. Some of the arguments for this mythology are subtle, using genuine though selective, historical data to support their thesis. They note, fore example, that “Palestine” historically has never been an independent country.

    Other arguments are crude and heavy handed, such as the Novelist Leon Uris’s depiction of the Palestinians as “people who don’t have the dignity to get up and and better their own living conditions but are satisfied to live off the scrapings of charity and whose main trust is the perpetuation of hatred
    I can quote you on this,
    The UN even created a special status that's only for Palestinians, so they can be hereditary pawns people with no realistic hope”.
    Leon Uris couldn’t have said it “better”.The truth is, since 1948, Palestinians are treated as a demographic threat.They continue to be denied the right to return to their former places of residence.

    --

    Palestine as 'a state of mind': second-generation Polish and British Palestinians’ search for home and belonging...

    This article reflects on the ways in which children of Palestinian exiles born in Poland and the UK relate to their ancestral homeland and how they make sense of their Palestinian inheritance in the present. It argues that while the second generation of Palestinian diasporic subjects maintain links with their parents’ homeland these connections are not limited to the inter-generational transmission of cultural identity. The article explores how Palestine ‘becomes’ important for second-generation Palestinians. It argues that it is the re-occurring waves of violence inflicted on Palestinians that activate and shape their engagement with Palestine. Rather than a sense of attachment based exclusively on a personal connection with ancestral ‘roots’, the article argues that the second generation also develop a sense of long-distance post-nationalism that transforms their connection with Palestine into a more universal endeavour for justice and against the dispossession.
    This did not happen two thousand years ago.
    Last edited by Ludicus; May 16, 2022 at 05:33 PM.
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  11. #271

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    You didn't watch the video.No, they didn't skipped that part.It's there,minute 10. But its completely irrelevant: I skipped the irrelevant part.
    They didn't read it, but I do recognize that for you and Al Jazeera, any context that doesn't fit a predetermined narrative is considered irrelevant. Although, the part that you think does fit your narrative is based on a lack of familiarity with the Israeli idiom employed, but I think context alone should be sufficient for a reasonable person to understand the intended meaning. Likewise, the allegation that his statement was meant as a justification to the international community for targeting journalists, besides being absurd, is undermined by the fact that the interview was broadcast in Hebrew to an Israeli audience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Its also relevant the fact in your opinion, there are no Palestinians.Arabs only, that's all. You haven't denied that.
    I had considered acknowledging the poor quality of your trolling, but I was being amicable.

    In the future, if you're going to quote me, you should follow the ToS and include a link to the original context. More importantly, to me anyway, don't alter my quote so that it looks like I have a poor grasp of English, as you've done this time.

    A few years back, I was having a conversation about Arabic dialects with an Arab girl who works in the archaeology library at Tel Aviv University. She said, "We speak the Shami dialect, because that's our real nation actually." To which I quipped, "Oh, so the truth comes out." She quickly responded, "No! Shut up! I will stab you!" I'm pretty sure she was joking, she was smiling anyway, and she hasn't stabbed me yet. Shami (šāmi), for those that don't know, is the Arabic term for the Levant or Greater Syria.

    The Palestinian identity was a product of the conflict. The term first appeared in Arabic in 1898 in a translation from Russian. For at least the first half of the Twentieth Century, it had primarily geographic connotations, and was used more by the Zionists and the British Administration of the Mandate rather than by Arabs. I believe the term as we know it today (more or less) was first defined in the 1968 revision of the Palestinian National Charter. Although, it had already started to take shape in the original 1964 version:

    Article 1. Palestine is an Arab homeland bound by strong national ties to the rest of the Arab Countries and which together form the large Arab homeland.

    Article 2. Palestine with its boundaries at the time of the British Mandate is a regional indivisible unit.

    Article 3. The Palestinian Arab people has the legitimate right to its homeland and is an inseparable part of the Arab Nation. It shares the sufferings and aspirations of the Arab Nation and its struggle for freedom, sovereignty, progress and unity.

    Article 4. The people of Palestine determines its destiny when it completes the liberation of its homeland in accordance with its own wishes and free will and choice.

    Article 5. The Palestinian personality is a permanent and genuine characteristic that does not disappear. It is transferred from fathers to sons.

    Article 6. The Palestinians are those Arab citizens who were living normally in Palestine up to 1947, whether they remained or were expelled. Every child who was born to a Palestinian parent after this date whether in Palestine or outside is a Palestinian.
    Notice that in the original 1964 version, they don't yet claim nationhood as they do in the 1968 version. The latter revision was no doubt connected to the outcome of the 1967 war. I'm sure you can find various BS sources that claim otherwise, it's all very political, but it doesn't really matter one way or the other to Palestinian claims based on the fact that (with the exception of a few individuals) they all have pre-1948 ancestry from the region.

    One perhaps pedantic note: Palestine as a geographic term was used in Arabic for a awhile immediately after the conquest of Roman Palestine, but disappeared from the lexicon for over a millennium until the aforementioned 1898 translation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  12. #272
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    The thread has a variable focus, we're back in the 19th century again. We do reinvent the past to reflect present realities, my country does it and so do lots of others, including Israel and the country that wants to be Palestine.

    The definition of a Palestinian offered above seems to be male only to to require the destruction of Israel, and denies any non-arab indigeneity in Palestine or the "greater Arab Homeland": this is a nationalist ideal that has seen Kurds and Yazidis oppressed and slaughtered as badly as the Palestinians have been. I can't acknowledge that as a legitimate statement of identity.

    Arab Palestinians want an Arab homeland for Arab Palestinians, I support that. Making a claim to the former province of Palestine en bloc requires other communities to be displaced. They are too weak to do it, and I am not helping them burn Tel Aviv. Presently there are two wannabe Palestines, one seemingly run by Iran, and neither seems to represent their own people effectively or justly. I'm not support coffin stealers or jihadist agents.

    There should be a state for Arabs in Palestine, but right now there's nothing like a state for them. The Arabs in Israel are far better off.

    I am against the settlers who want to guilt Israel and the west into their nefarious schemes. I feel like they should be left to their own devices but they have guilted Tel Aviv into supporting them by taking their children into the settlements and shonky political deals. Democracy is grubby, it only looks acceptable when you see it beside whatever tf is happening politically in Gaza, is it a terror cell holding a population hostage?

    Personally I have a strong instinctive dislike of journalists, so bear that in mind I am biased. We're jumping straight to "she was murdered". Is it possible the journalist was shot because she was with an armed group engaged in a firefight? Can we find the bullet after her corpse was stolen to see if it was a rifle round, or was it from n automatic weapon?

    People celebrating her death seem like scum to me, just because she was a Palestinian does not make her a terrorist any more than the soldiers attempting to keep the peace are the same as the deliberately provocative settlers because some of them are Jews.

    Simple black and white thinking here makes the anger easier to access but its a long way from reality.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  13. #273

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Regarding the bullet that killed Shireen Abu Akleh:

    The Palestinian Authority said on Thursday it had refused Israel’s request to conduct a joint investigation into the death of Al Jazeera journalist Shireen Abu Akleh.

    “Israel requested a joint investigation and the handing over of the bullet that assassinated the journalist Shireen, and we refused that, and we affirmed that our investigation would be completed independently, and we will inform her family, America, Qatar and all official authorities of the results of the investigation,” Palestinian Authority Civil Affairs head Hussein al-Sheikh said on Twitter.

    The official added the claim that “all indications, evidence and witnesses confirm her assassination by Israeli special units.”

    “Those who have nothing to hide do not refuse to cooperate,” Israel’s Army Radio quoted unnamed Israeli officials saying in response.

    Added Israel’s Communications Minister Yoaz Hendel: “Anyone who claims the IDF killed the journalist is not doing so on the basis of an investigation or facts, but propaganda. We have said that we will investigate, and that’s what we’re doing — directly and honestly.”

    Abu Akleh, 51, was shot in the head during clashes between Israeli troops and Palestinian gunmen while covering an Israeli army operation in the West Bank city of Jenin on Wednesday. The Palestinians blamed Israel for her death, while Israeli officials said Palestinian gunmen may have fired the fatal shot.

    Channels 12 and 13 reported on Wednesday that both sides were in contact to conduct a ballistic analysis of the bullet in order to determine whether she was killed by Israeli or Palestinian gunfire.

    Channel 12 reported that the bullet in question is a 5.56×45mm NATO round, which is used by both Israeli troops and Palestinian terrorists for weapons, including M16 and M4 assault rifles.

    Several Israeli officials called on the Palestinians on Wednesday to conduct a joint investigation, with several Hebrew news sites reporting that the US had been mediating between Jerusalem and Ramallah.

    An initial autopsy of Abu Akleh’s body by Palestinian coroners found that it was “not possible” to tell whether she was killed by Israeli or Palestinian gunfire.

    “The bullet that entered her body is in our possession and has been taken to the lab for further analysis,” said the head coroner, Dr. Ryan al-Ali of the Pathological Institute at a-Najah University in Nablus.

    Al-Ali emphasized that the findings were only preliminary and that it could not be definitively determined from how far away the bullet was shot, but that it was not from close range.
    It's extremely unlikely that either side would have shot her deliberately. Abu Akleh was a local, but Israel grants visas to foreign Al Jazeera journalists to operate in Israel and Area C of the West Bank under their control despite the hostile coverage. If Israel wanted to suppress negative media coverage via authoritarian means, certainly there would be ways that are much less psychopathic and much less suicidal in the court of world opinion. The most credible and well-informed negative coverage of Israeli government policy comes from Israeli citizens anyway, who are then selectively parroted by international media outlets. Abu Akleh was an Arabic language journalist whose coverage was probably less radically anti-Israel than most Arab language coverage.

    Christian Palestinian opinion on the conflict is quite divided, with some being pro-Israel, some being anti-Israel, with most probably being in between. If they are pro-Israel and live in the Palestinian territories, there is no way to know it unless you know them personally. I have a Melkite Christian Palestinian friend from the West Bank, whose entire family are (in a way) pro-Israel, not out of any love for Israel, but because they want Israel to annex the West Bank because they believe it would lead to more stability, an improved economy, and reduced corruption. They own a business that profits from Western tourism which wanes when the security situation flares up, and they say that the PA is generally indifferent to the property crimes that are regularly committed against them by Muslim Palestinians.

    Nuanced coverage about Arab-Jewish coexistence that you'll rarely if ever see in mainstream international media:

    A week after his party’s return from a coalition timeout, Ra’am chief Mansour Abbas said Tuesday that his vision is to transform Arab participation in politics from a useful means to prop up governments into a worthy end in and of itself.

    “We want to make this relationship a goal in itself, not an instrument,” Abbas said during a symposium at Reichman University.

    “It’s beyond the day-to-day,” he said, adding: “If we succeed in this model… then we can deal with the more complex and hard issue, the Palestinian-Israeli relationship.”

    Following a three-week “freeze” of Ra’am coalition membership in the wake of unrest on Jerusalem’s Temple Mount/Al-Aqsa complex, Ra’am returned to give the flagging coalition “another chance.” The coalition lost its majority in April, and Ra’am’s return restored the alliance to a 60-60 seat parity with the opposition. Its return was timed to help protect the government from the threat of a preliminary bill to force elections.

    Ra’am’s leap into the government last year was the first time an Islamist party joined an Israeli coalition. In doing so, Ra’am departed from long-held Arab political strategy.

    While the Joint List faction — of which Ra’am used to be an allied party — still refuses to actively participate in Israeli politics until equality and Palestinian national aspirations are credibly addressed, Ra’am inverted that equation.

    “They want change but they don’t want to understand that change is the result of a process of partnership. How will the change be made without a partnership?” Abbas said of the Joint List’s strategy.

    With the ambition of forging a new path for Arab political integration, Ra’am intentionally set aside Palestinian national concerns in order to focus on civil wins. Its detractors say that tangible achievements have yet to be seen, in part because the sizable funds Ra’am obtained for crime-fighting and economic issues in the Arab sector have been jammed in bureaucratic wheels. Additionally, Ra’am has only achieved limited recognition of illegal villages and building in the Negev, a key concern for its voters.

    In addition to criticism from within Arab society, and even a split within its own ranks, Ra’am has been a favorite punching bag for right-wing opposition members. Some of its most vociferous attackers are from opposition leader Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud, a party that only last year also courted Abbas.

    In addition to Likud refrains that Ra’am is a party of “terror supporters,” Netanyahu has also drawn on the Islamic Movement’s ideological ties to the Muslim Brotherhood.

    Ra’am, as the political party of the southern branch of the Islamic Movement, has come under fire for the party’s advisory reliance on the movement’s Shura Council. It has also come under criticism for the inspiration the Islamic Movement has drawn from the Muslim Brotherhood, a transnational Islamic organization that counts the Hamas terror group among its ideological children.

    During a Knesset debate on an economic measure on Monday evening, Likud MK Yoav Galant stood at the podium, next to Abbas who was temporarily presiding over the discussion, and said: “We will outlaw the Islamic Movement as we have excluded the northern faction that is hostile to the State of Israel. This is what needs to be done.”

    “We’re not the Muslim Brotherhood,” the Ra’am leader said at Reichman, while noting that he is associated with parts of its ideology.

    “If you take any ideological faction, Islam, liberal, communist — any party that is associated with this faction will have similar aspects with others across the world,” he said. “However, it doesn’t mean that you’re the same.”

    While Abbas verbally distanced himself from equivalence with the Muslim Brotherhood, he did nod to Ra’am’s deep Islamic roots.

    “If you have this title of an Islamic Movement party, of course, Islam dictates many aspects,” he said.

    Abbas cited the Islamic Movement’s late founder, Sheikh Abdullah Nimar Darwish, who according to Abbas created the movement with acknowledgment of the complexity of living in a multi-identity society like Israel.

    “Darwish said it would be a local movement that not only tries to but actually balances between several identities, not only the civil identity of the citizens but also national identity.” He added that Darwish “understood that he had to pave a way in which various religious identities could live together.”

    Although detaching from an Islamic identity might help his party have a broader base across Israel’s multi-faith Arab sector, Abbas — himself a religious Muslim — dismissed the idea that Ra’am would separate from the Islamic Movement.

    “People have said that it would be wonderful if Ra’am weren’t affiliated with the southern Islamic Movement,” he said, but: “If so, we’d lose 70% of our meaning.”

    “The fact that a party established from a religious movement with all of the context is very important…We know that the religious establishment can contain new ideas and we’re already proving that,” he said.

    But, with Ra’am’s commitment to its religious character, Abbas said his party would have to make an effort if it were to connect with other segments of Arab society.

    “Ra’am is a party within Arab society, and not even touching on Christians and Druze,” he said. “If we want to fix the gap between Ra’am and larger Arab society, we have to adapt ourselves as a party,” Abbas said.

    Abbas repeated that, barely 11-months into Ra’am’s groundbreaking political shift, it’s important to maintain a long-term perspective, as there are and will continue to be stumbling blocks along the way. “Progress isn’t in one direction, it can also go backwards,” he said.

    In particular, the Ra’am leader pointed to last May’s outbreak of Arab-Jewish violence across mixed cities, in parallel to Israel’s military operation against Hamas in the Gaza Strip.

    “We formed the coalition two to three weeks after the events stopped,” he said, adding that negotiations were successful because Ra’am maintained its position of taking an active role in Israeli politics.
    Last edited by sumskilz; May 18, 2022 at 02:15 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  14. #274
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    So much effort to hide the reality of what has happened and continues to happen. The usual, mastering the art of justification.
    The crude reality of the facts,
    From the American press, Our Friend Shireen Abu Akleh

    It was like any other day for Shireen Abu Akleh, Al Jazeera’s veteran correspondent in the occupied West Bank, and our friend and colleague. Early in the morning of May 11, she sent an e-mail to her coworkers letting them know she was going to report in the field. “[Israeli] occupation forces storm Jenin and besiege a house in the Jabriyat neighborhood,” she wrote. “On the way there—I will bring you news as soon as the picture becomes clearer.” But she never had a chance.

    According to eyewitnesses, her colleagues at the scene, and the Palestinian health ministry, Shireen was shot and killed by Israeli forces not long after she arrived. Her producer was also shot and wounded. They were wearing helmets and blue flak jackets with the word “Press” clearly emblazoned across the front and back and were nowhere near any gunfire or armed Palestinians. Shireen was 51, and, though she was Palestinian, she was also a US citizen.

    News of Shireen’s death reverberated around the world, with calls for justice and accountability circulating alongside the video of her colleagues trying to attend to her while shots rang out around them.
    Palestinians, who had watched her tell their stories from their living rooms for more than two decades, responded with an outpouring of grief. Thousands of Palestinians lined the streets of occupied East Jerusalem to follow her funeral procession until it reached Mount Zion Cemetery, where Shireen was buried next to her parents. It was one of the largest funerals in recent memory, as Palestinians found themselves united in mourning, resilience, and gratitude for Shireen.

    But even on this day, Israeli police compounded matters by beating mourners and pallbearers, tearing Palestinian flags away from them and her casket, nearly causing it to fall to the ground. The police violence elicited rare criticism of Israel from US Secretary of State Antony Blinken, who said he was “deeply troubled” by it.

    Shireen was devoted to covering not just armed conflicts but also the daily indignities and injustices of Israel’s half-century-old occupation of the Palestinian territories. She documented the invasions of Palestinian cities and towns, arrests, home demolitions, and shootings at military checkpoints. She bore witness to Israel’s military rule, which the United Nations as well as all major human rights organizations, including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, have called apartheid, systematically privileging Jewish Israelis and discriminating against Palestinians.

    After Shireen’s killing, the Israeli military suggested she was shot by Palestinians... But journalists and human rights organizations quickly debunked that story, proving Israel’s claims were false.
    Later, by way of justifying the possibility that Israel did kill Shireen, a military spokesperson made the revealing and alarming assertion that she and her colleagues were “armed with cameras.”

    Shireen is also just one of several US citizens who have been killed in recent years by Israeli soldiers, who have faced no serious consequences for their actions. Before her death, the most recent was Omar Assad, a 78-year Palestinian-American who was pulled from his car at a checkpoint in his West Bank village late at night in January, bound, gagged, left in the cold in obvious distress, and later found dead.

    With two Americans killed by Israeli soldiers in the span of four months, it forces the question: What will it take for the US government to hold Israel to even a modicum of accountability?
    It will never happen. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, as the bible says.The answer is here: London Review of Books
    Edit: in line with the modus operanti explained in the previous link in great detail,the launch of New York Solidarity Network is a strategy of Israel strongly focused on maintaining American public support, How a New Pro-Israel Group Aims to Sway NY Elections - New York Times
    May 12, 2022
    (...) Like Aipac, the New York network is set up as a membership organization whose leaders will encourage donors to give to candidates they regard as being pro-Israel.
    Appearing to be among the first Israel-focused organizations in the nation to seek to influence elections at the local level...
    ...Its rise also points to the growing role that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict plays in state and local elections in the United States.

    I’m not aware of any similar organization on the state level — untethered from a national one — that has launched an effort to affect legislative elections by supporting (or not) candidates based on a litmus test of their pro-Israeli credentials,” Aaron David Miller, a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, wrote in an email.

    The group charges $1,000 for an individual membership and asks members to pledge at least $5,000 to a slate of “candidates, causes and projects aligned with our mission”





    ...
    Last edited by Ludicus; May 18, 2022 at 09:53 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  15. #275

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    From the American press, Our Friend Shireen Abu Akleh
    Laila Al-Arian's reporting there is about as balanced as the last article she wrote for The Nation, in which she claims that her father's conviction for his activities in support of Palestinian Islamic Jihad (which he pled guilty to) was the result of a racist FBI conspiracy against him. I realize that pro-Palestinian activists like Laila Al-Arian and Dalia Hatuqa are accepted and admired as journalists in "progressive" circles, but they're essentially The Electronic Intifada with a veneer of respectability. As in, arguably useful for understanding Palestinian perspectives on the conflict (if you accept that they believe their own propaganda), but functionally equivalent to citing journalists affiliated with the settler movement.

    The reason I tend to cite the Times of Israel as an English language source about the conflict, is that they're centrist and moderately leftist American-Israeli, British-Israeli, and Arab-Israeli journalists, so they're reasonably critical in their coverage of Israeli government policies, but likewise situated in Israel, with a real understanding of both the languages and the cultural nuances of local Arab and Jewish society, while having the capacity to communicate well in English.

    That said, I appreciate that you managed to fit in a citation to Mearsheimer, as I'm sure followers of the Ukraine thread are feeling like they really aren't getting enough of him as it is. Now that I see that in addition to being an "it’s all America’s fault" guy, he’s also a "the Jews are behind it" guy, I understand why you’re such a fan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  16. #276
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Is their footage of the journalist being shot? I don't want to see it but it would inform debate about sniping/crossfire etc.

    Are we still going with "funeral procession" and not "corpse thieves"? The family stated they arranged a route for the hearse with the police, the crowd seized the coffin and pelted the police with stuff. If this is the case then the charade was violent theatre with a corpse as a prop, and the men stealing the corpse deserve a good beating.

    Were her family hurt in the procession? Were her family holding the coffin? Or was it corps stealers who nearly tipped her body on the ground after inciting a police attack?

    I'd be furious if her brother was lying about this to make the protestors look bad, but I think the beaten mob were corpse stealers looking for a photo op. Absolutely disgusting.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  17. #277
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    There's stealing, and there's borrowing.

    Do we know if they intended to bury the body in the same place as the family, or were they planning on burying it in their own cemetery of stolen bodies?

    It's an important distinction.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  18. #278

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Is their footage of the journalist being shot? I don't want to see it but it would inform debate about sniping/crossfire etc.
    There is a video from right afterwards. It doesn't establish whether or not Palestinian gunmen were near her, but it does establish her position. This is where she was when she was hit, facing down the street toward where a firefight was taking place between IDF forces and Palestinian militants:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Here is a map showing what her line of sight would have been relative to independently confirmed positions of IDF soldiers and Palestinian militants (although there were probably more):

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The Israeli investigation has proposed two possible scenarios. Either she was hit by Palestinian gunman who they say were firing wildly, perhaps by a bullet that flew past the IDF position, since to fire at the soldiers they would have been shooting in her direction, or by an IDF solider who they say returned fire through a slot in an armored vehicle in what would have likewise been in Abu Akleh's direction. The Israeli investigators are holding that soldier's gun, and requesting that the PA allow them to analyze the bullet to see if it indeed came from the soldier's weapon, but thus far the PA have refused this. These images are taken from an independent investigation which favors the latter scenario, but notes that there is no solid evidence that militants were near Abu Akleh's position. I think it's both likely that militants would have tried to encircle the IDF soldiers on their home turf like that and that any Palestinian with a weapon might have fired at them, but the soldier who says he returned fire in what is now known to have been Abu Akleh's direction could have been mistaken. The independently confirmed IDF positions were 190 to 250 meters to her south.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Are we still going with "funeral procession" and not "corpse thieves"? The family stated they arranged a route for the hearse with the police, the crowd seized the coffin and pelted the police with stuff. If this is the case then the charade was violent theatre with a corpse as a prop, and the men stealing the corpse deserve a good beating.

    Were her family hurt in the procession? Were her family holding the coffin? Or was it corps stealers who nearly tipped her body on the ground after inciting a police attack?

    I'd be furious if her brother was lying about this to make the protestors look bad, but I think the beaten mob were corpse stealers looking for a photo op. Absolutely disgusting.
    Abu Akleh's brother's recounting of the event as told immediately after the incident was corroborated by an EU diplomat who was on the scene, who tried to mediate between the family and the demonstrators. In the days after the incident, Abu Akleh's brother has reframed his story without explicitly denying the initial details. He has objected to the description of the demonstrators who took the coffin as a "mob", rather he said something to the effect of "they weren't a mob, everyone was there to pay respects to Shireen". This could be because he was personally annoyed that the police were using his testimony to justify their actions, or because it was causing problems for him and he was being intimidated, or a combination of all of the aforementioned.

    In any case, referring to the demonstrators carrying the coffin as pallbearers for a Melkite funeral is certainly a mischaracterization. They were chanting "the people of Muhammad do not kneel" and "let the olive branch fall and raise the rifle".
    Last edited by sumskilz; May 20, 2022 at 12:42 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  19. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    There's stealing, and there's borrowing.

    Do we know if they intended to bury the body in the same place as the family, or were they planning on burying it in their own cemetery of stolen bodies?

    It's an important distinction.
    I agree there's a distinction. Borrowing is when you ask, stealing is when you steal. I don't need to ask some infantile question about the destination of a stolen corpse to know stealing is wrong, and stealing a corpse is disgusting. If you want to get into the question of why it was stolen, it looks like they were using it as a shield against the police. Please, no more defence of corpse theft.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    There is a video from right afterwards. It doesn't establish whether or not Palestinian gunmen were near her, but it does establish her position. This is where she was when she was hit, facing down the street toward where a firefight was taking place between IDF forces and Palestinian militants:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Here is a map showing what her line of sight would have been relative to independently confirmed positions of IDF soldiers and Palestinian militants (although there were probably more):

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The Israeli investigation has proposed two possible scenarios. Either she was hit by Palestinian gunman who they say were firing wildly, perhaps by a bullet that flew past the IDF position, since to fire at the soldiers they would have been shooting in her direction, or by an IDF solider who they say returned fire through a slot in an armored vehicle in what would have likewise been in Abu Akleh's direction. The Israeli investigators are holding that soldier's gun, and requesting that the PA allow them to analyze the bullet to see if it indeed came from the soldier's weapon, but thus far the PA have refused this. These images are taken from an independent investigation which favors the latter scenario, but notes that there is no solid evidence that militants were near Abu Akleh's position. I think it's both likely that militants would have tried to encircle the IDF soldiers on their home turf like that and that any Palestinian with a weapon might have fired at them, but the soldier who says he returned fire in what is now known to have been Abu Akleh's direction could have been mistaken. The independently confirmed IDF positions were 190 to 250 meters to her south.

    Abu Akleh's brother's recounting of the event as told immediately after the incident was corroborated by an EU diplomat who was on the scene, who tried to mediate between the family and the demonstrators. In the days after the incident, Abu Akleh's brother has reframed his story without explicitly denying the initial details. He has objected to the description of the demonstrators who took the coffin as a "mob", rather he said something to the effect of "they weren't a mob, everyone was there to pay respects to Shireen". This could be because he was personally annoyed that the police were using his testimony to justify their actions, or because it was causing problems for him and he was being intimidated, or a combination of all of the the aforementioned.
    It sounds to me like he's upset at being used as a pawn, and probably feeling loyalty to his community. I can understand the genuine mourners trying to express grief in their community standards but they still disobeyed what he asked them to do. he sounds like a generous person. the rock throwers hiding behind the corpse can go to hell.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  20. #280
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    It's amazing what the apologists for Israeli actions do to cover up the reality.

    --
    Israel will not investigate the the killling of Al Jazeera Journalist Abu Akleh




    Biden's trip to Israel

    When Al-Jazeera reporter Shireen Abu Akleh was gunned down in Jenin, the usual war of narratives began. Even though all eyewitness accounts unambiguously report that it was Israeli soldiers who killed Abu Akleh, and Israel’s theories trying to either blame Palestinians or blur the realities were debunked by several sources, the U.S. continues to support an investigation led by Israel and insists that the situation remains unclear.

    Israel’s behavior garnered even more scorn on Monday when Palestinian Christian leaders showed a video of Israeli police storming the hospital where Shireen Abu Akleh’s body had been, even throwing a man on crutches to the ground.

    (...) Biden — facing midterm elections where pro-Israel groups like AIPAC and the Democratic Majority for Israel are mobilizing unprecedented amounts of money against anyone who has even the mildest criticism of Israel...what can Biden realistically ask for?

    First and foremost, the administration must make it clear that it supports a fully independent investigation into Abu Akleh’s killing.
    Even Israeli Minister of Diaspora Affairs, Nachman Shai of the Labor Party, said that, “with all due respect to us, let’s say that Israel’s credibility is not very high in such events.”
    Of course, if history is any guide, Israel will not cooperate with such an inquiry and will condemn its findings if they deviate in the slightest from whatever narrative Israel prefers.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

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