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Thread: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

  1. #1
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    Default The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    @Cope What are your thoughts on the near universally internationally condemned settlers?

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    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    @Cope What are your thoughts on the near universally internationally condemned settlers?
    I think there are differing degrees of unlawfulness. Illegal settlements act as a provocation, but they're not in the same league of criminality as launching thousands of rockets indiscriminately over a period of a few days.

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    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    "Thousands of rockets" over a period of "few days"... To quote your Leader: "WRONG!"
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    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Why is the the Israeli-Palestinian conflict so intractable? what is the US policy on the conflict? according to the Financial Times,"Palestinian conflict resurrects Netanyahu's political fortunes"
    Palestinian conflict resurrects Netanyahu's political fortunes
    Nearly dethroned a week ago, the five-time prime minister is back on top, riding a rightwing wave of anger
    --------------------------
    In fact, when Netanyahu is about to lose power, and when another government with Arab support for the first time is about to become a reality,it seems to me that this radical right wing man- suspected of corruption and failing to form government- wanted to show his vigor for another disproportionate show of force: the bombing of refugee camps and the headquarters of Associated Press and Al Jazeera. It’s not a coincidence. And, btw,the Arabs in Israel are not-and never have been-citizens with full rights. In an unequal society, in the end,hatred wins.
    I can’t say I’m surprised, Israel's Arab minority feel a sense of kinship with Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza.
    Rupert Colville, spokesman for the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, said this adamantly: "The occupying power" cannot "confiscate private property in occupied territory" and the transfer of civilians is not only illegal but can be considered a "war crime" Here, Press briefing notes on Occupied Palestinian Territory - OHCHR 7 May 2021
    --------------
    Joe Biden feels political ground shift as Israel-Gaza conflict- The Guardian...
    Analysis: US president may find himself increasingly isolated in his resolute defence of Israel.
    Biden has even been prepared to face isolation at the UN security council, at the potential cost of his own credibility on multilateralism and human rights. But analysts say that as the death toll rises with no sign of a ceasefire, the domestic and international pressures on the president could become impossible to ignore.
    American Jews have grown increasingly sceptical of Netanyahu and his policies...The liberal Jewish American lobby, J Street, has growing influence in the Democratic party and has urged Biden to do more to stop the bloodshed and the Israeli policies that have helped drive the conflict.
    A prominent progressive Jewish writer, Peter Beinart, wrote a commentary in the New York Times last week arguing for the right of Palestinian refugees to return as the only long-term solution to the cycle of violence. “The East Jerusalem evictions are so combustible because they continue a pattern of expulsion that is as old as Israel itself,” Beinart wrote.
    Biden faces an angry rift in his own party over Israeli ... - CNN

    Edit-I wonder why this topic has not been addressed here until now? It deserves its own thread.
    Last edited by Ludicus; May 17, 2021 at 05:48 AM.
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  5. #5
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    this radical right wing man
    Netanyahu is hardly right-wing, much less "radical". The man who was about to form a coalition without him and with an Arab party is much more right-wing than Netanyahu, who is at most centre-right, though in reality goes in the direction the wind blows. The crowd has been a bit more right wing, so he has been going a bit more right-wing. He is an opportunist, not an ideologue. The man voted to disengage from Gaza back in the day.
    wanted to show his vigor for another disproportionate show of force: the bombing of refugee camps and the headquarters of Associated Press and Al Jazeera. It’s not a coincidence.
    Yes, Netanyahu forced Hamas to fire 7 rockets at Jerusalem.
    Did he cause the conflict? No. Did he, for once, decide to respond properly instead of jumping at the first opportunity for a ceasefire in hopes for political gain? Yes. It's sad that he only does the right thing when his political future is on the line, but it is what it is.
    And, btw,the Arabs in Israel are not-and never have been-citizens with full rights.
    Yes they are.

  6. #6

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    I wonder why this topic has not been addressed here until now? It deserves its own thread.
    I'm sure somebody meant to get to it right after they had made a thread for Tigray War in which tens of thousands have died this year, or for Afghanistan where over 10,000 have died this year, or for the Yemeni Civil War in which more than 7,000 have died this year, or for the Mexican Drug War in which over 3,000 have died this year, or for any of the others from the long list significantly more deadly current conflicts that none of us know much about.

    Which is not to suggest that I don't appreciate the opportunity to discuss the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, as we've devoted so little to discussing it in the past.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


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    Gaius Baltar's Avatar Roma in aeternum
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    The OP mentioned warcrimes and I would suggest intentionally targeting civilians with rocket attacks would fit into that category. As would staging and firing them from within a civilian population. Coordinating with individuals engaged in these acts would also be a warcrime, like placing your office in a building with weapons and using your employees as a type of human shield for the activities.

    The list goes on but that's a good starting point.

    This cycle of violence will only end when Gaza is demilitarized. That means removing Hamas and replacing them with a responsible civilian government who would be more interested in building up the economy rather than tunnels, rockets and suicide vests.



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    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    That conflict threatens to drag to war the entire middle east and eastern mediteranean.
    Turkey's president proposed to President Putin a mutual "peace keeping force" to stand between the Israely and Hamas forces.
    When Erdogan recieved a denial he proposed a EOZ agreement between Turkey and Palestine like the one Turkey made with Lybia

    but the answer from Israel came rapidly and very clear.
    Nottice the phrase
    This would put #Israel and Turkey on a #military collision course.
    What started as a huge mistake by the Israely PM to ilegaly throw out Palestinians from their houses in Jeroysalem now starts to become a spark for a huge conflict.
    If Palestine goverment agree with the Turksih proposal do not be surprised if the akkuyu nuclear plant will bgecome dust like Israel made for such facillities many times in Iraq and Iran and Syria.
    That will make things more complicated. Hamas uses the "rights" of the Palestinian people simply to enforce its political status and drag Arabs in a war with Israel.
    All we know is that Hamas fanatics and Israely fanatics create victims insied innocent and undefended population.

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    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    That conflict threatens to drag to war the entire middle east and eastern mediteranean.
    Turkey's president proposed to President Putin a mutual "peace keeping force" to stand between the Israely and Hamas forces.
    When Erdogan recieved a denial he proposed a EOZ agreement between Turkey and Palestine like the one Turkey made with Lybia
    This is just another pathetic attempt by the Turkish government to justify their, frankly hilarious, maritime claims in the eastern med. They made a similar offer to Israel a while back:

    Note however how in this map there's no Gaza. They tried to butter up to Israel and failed so they added Gaza to the map and are continuing in their quest to try to find someone who will help justify their BS claims.
    What started as a huge mistake by the Israely PM to ilegaly throw out Palestinians from their houses in Jeroysalem now starts to become a spark for a huge conflict.
    This wasn't a decision by Netanyahu, who in fact has nothing to do with this at all. There was an agreement with the residents that sated that if they cease paying rent they will be evicted, they ceased paying rent, courts ruled to evict.

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    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromovnik View Post
    "Thousands of rockets" over a period of "few days"... To quote your Leader: "WRONG!"
    The fighting began after weeks of rising Israeli-Palestinian tension in occupied East Jerusalem that culminated in clashes at a holy site revered by both Muslims and Jews. Hamas, which controls Gaza, began firing rockets after warning Israel to withdraw from the site, triggering retaliatory air strikes.

    Israel says more than 3,000 rockets have been fired into the country over the past week.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-57138996
    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    Let’s say the kids are being held hostage by a terror group but you bomb them anyway?
    This hypothetical doesn't really have enough detail for me to answer. Determining how much force is proportional is difficult enough even when all the facts of a case are known.

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    Odenat's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Israel massacred 200 palestinians in a week, 59 of them were children. Now, imagine if it was Turkey who did the same thing; what would happen? All of EU would put embargo, USA would be preparing to send a peace force. What is EU doing right now: Nothing!

    And what did the great humanitarian US president Biden (who recognized the so called Armenian genocide)? Well, he vetoed a UN decision asking for peace! Biden did not even publicly call for a ceasefire! Yet, when it is about Turkey-Iran-China-Russia, Western officials act like they care about human rights. At least Turkey tries to do something. You must be asking what the other Muslim countries are doing... Egypt-Saudi Arabia-UAE gladly watch Muslims being killed. In a few weeks, when Israeli government decides they killed enough palestinians, they will inform Egypt that they are stopping and Egyptians will say "We brokered a peace agreement". Of course everything will repeat in 5 years just like it does for the last 20 years.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-say-officials

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    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Odenat View Post
    Israel massacred 200 palestinians in a week, 59 of them were children. Now, imagine if it was Turkey who did the same thing; what would happen? All of EU would put embargo, USA would be preparing to send a peace force. What is EU doing right now: Nothing!

    And what did the great humanitarian US president Biden (who recognized the so called Armenian genocide)? Well, he vetoed a UN decision asking for peace! Biden did not even publicly call for a ceasefire! Yet, when it is about Turkey-Iran-China-Russia, Western officials act like they care about human rights. At least Turkey tries to do something. You must be asking what the other Muslim countries are doing... Egypt-Saudi Arabia-UAE gladly watch Muslims being killed. In a few weeks, when Israeli government decides they killed enough palestinians, they will inform Egypt that they are stopping and Egyptians will say "We brokered a peace agreement". Of course everything will repeat in 5 years just like it does for the last 20 years.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-say-officials
    I agree 100% with you. But...double standards in politics should not surprice you and your nation. Your goverment tries to convince the Arabic World that Turkey will protect the integrity of Mosque Al Aqsa only few weeks when yoru goverment did not respect two (2) Christian Churches DESPITE Prophet Muhamad's Achtiname that FORBITS MUSLIMS to convert Churches or Monasteries in Mosques and MORE that Muslims have the OBLIGATION to protect Christian Priests and Monks. So how your goverment will gain solvency when its is the primary example of the 2 standards policy? How can a quilty can blaim another as quilty as well? See how actions turn against our people or against our religion if we do not think with wisdom and put blind nationalism above all? If your goverment does not recognise the Armanian Genocide why do you expect Israel's goverment to recognice a genocide against Palestinians?

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    irontaino's Avatar What's up danger?
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Netanyahu is hardly right-wing, much less "radical". The man who was about to form a coalition without him and with an Arab party is much more right-wing than Netanyahu, who is at most centre-right, though in reality goes in the direction the wind blows. The crowd has been a bit more right wing, so he has been going a bit more right-wing. He is an opportunist, not an ideologue. The man voted to disengage from Gaza back in the day.
    Whether or not he's right-wing or radical, I'll defer to you or any other Israelis on this forum. One thing is for certain; he doesn't care for Palestinians. Remember that one time his frothing hatred for them caused him to engage in Holocaust revisionism? Or that time he made a last minute appeal to racism in that election where, to paraphrase, he warned that Arabs were voting in droves? This current flare up seems to be him trying to rattle the right-wing, anti-Palestinian, and hawkish types so he can hold on to power.
    Last edited by irontaino; May 17, 2021 at 02:48 PM.
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    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Odenat View Post
    Israel massacred 200 palestinians in a week, 59 of them were children. Now, imagine if it was Turkey who did the same thing; what would happen? All of EU would put embargo, USA would be preparing to send a peace force. What is EU doing right now: Nothing!
    Remember how Turkey killed over 500 people fighters and 146 civilians in Syria in 1 week during the invasion of northern Syria? No? Oh.
    That's not the number of people killed by Israel, btw. That's the number of people killed in Gaza, and includes militants and multiple high ranking commanders. Hundreds of Hamas/Islamic Jihad rockets have fallen in Gaza (over 350 as of yesterday), killing many civilians (including 6 children on the very first day by one PIJ rocket).

  15. #15

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    This wasn't a decision by Netanyahu, who in fact has nothing to do with this at all. There was an agreement with the residents that sated that if they cease paying rent they will be evicted, they ceased paying rent, courts ruled to evict.
    How long has the agreement been in force?

  16. #16

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    How long has the agreement been in force?
    This document which skilz sent me summarizes it concisely.

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    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    How long has the agreement been in force?
    Since 1982.

  18. #18

    Default Re: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Since 1982.
    And, I take it, not generally problematic since then?

    edit:
    Thanks Cope

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    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    This hypothetical doesn't really have enough detail for me to answer. Determining how much force is proportional is difficult enough even when all the facts of a case are known.
    ^determining whether or not killing children is proportional depends on whose children

  20. #20

    Default Re: Want to rant about rightwings and conservatives? This is your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    ^determining whether or not killing children is proportional depends on whose children
    No.

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