The Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

Germany is very interested in Iron Dome.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Germany is very interested in Iron Dome.

I think there are very few who won't be interested once the lasers are integrated ina year or two.

[Prodromos]

I guess Jewish space lasers are real after all.

[Condottiere 40K]

A lot of people are going to start being interested in cheap anti missile and anti drone defences.

[Axalon]

More riots and chaos by the local Arabs…. Yet again in Jerusalem… 150+ people injured this time around (yesterday)…
I am so utterly fed up with the same old riots, by the same old crowd, screaming the same old damned thing.…







- A
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BTW, we have had 4 Islam/koran-riots in Sweden since thursday (14th april)...
In Linköping, Norrköping, Rinkeby (Stockholm) och Örebro... 13 policemen injured and lots of chaos, of course.

[PointOfViewGun]

Damn those Arabs for not just bending over and wait for whatever Israelis do...

[Nebaki]

Germany is very interested in Iron Dome.

For which purpose Germany should get Iron Dome? I don´t think that there is a threat against Germany of DIY-Suicide-Drones somewhere close to his Border.

[Cyclops]

For which purpose Germany should get Iron Dome? I don´t think that there is a threat against Germany of DIY-Suicide-Drones somewhere close to his Border.

What if Erdogan sends his Vizier to attack Vienna?

Seriously though Putin has been nuke hinting for months. I can completely understand anyone within several thousand kms for Russia getting sweaty palms, especially if they've flushed a couple of Putin supporters recently.

[swabian]

If Putin is close to failing, there is a chance for this to actually happen. The talk is of course of tactical nuclear weapons. There are also "mini-nukes" (basically greandes that or based on nuclear fission like the weapons used on Japan in ww2). Actual tactical nuclear bombs or missiles would have an enormous blast radius but would leave an "acceptable" amount of radiation behind. The idea is to bomb densely packed troops or fleets and than to march through the afflicted area. Yeah, you all probably know this, fine.

What kind of response is reasonable? This is meant as an open question, of course. Russia would use it where exactly? Kyiv is a city of almost 3 Million. What can be a response to this? It's not NATO country, but can this be unanswered?

[Condottiere 40K]

United Nations sanctioned peace keeping intervention and no fly zone.

Russia will automatically be ousted from it's Security seat.

[Ludicus]

Israeli forces attack Shireen Abu Akleh’s funeral



No comments.

[sumskilz]

Israeli forces attack Shireen Abu Akleh’s funeral

It’s notable that this incident was deemed worthy of bumping the thread, yet none among the constant stream of attacks against Israeli civilians was. Although, I do agree with the implied sentiment that Palestinians firing randomly into crowds or chopping up people with axes is simply too common to be considered remarkable.

Regarding the incident itself, there is a context:

Israeli police said late Friday that officers intervened in the funeral of Al Jazeera journalist Shireen Abu Akleh in Jerusalem earlier in the day after “rioters” seized her coffin at the hospital, against her family’s wishes.

Officers charged Palestinians who were holding and surrounding the casket, and beat them with batons, nearly toppling the coffin. Images of the incident sparked global shock and condemnation.

“About 300 rioters arrived at Saint Joseph hospital in Jerusalem and prevented the family members from loading the coffin onto the hearse,” police said in a statement late Friday night.

Law enforcement had planned and coordinated the funeral procession with Abu Akleh’s family ahead of time, the English-language statement said.

“The mob threatened the driver of the hearse and then proceeded to carry the coffin on an unplanned procession,” the statement said. “This went against the wishes of the Abu Akleh family and the security coordination.”

Police instructed the crowd to return the coffin to the hearse, “but the mob refused,” police said.

“Police intervened to disperse the mob and prevent them from taking the coffin, so that the funeral could proceed as planned in accordance with the wishes of the family,” the statement said…

The police’s version of events was consistent with some reports from the funeral, and earlier this week, Abu Akleh’s brother said the plan was to move the casket in a hearse from the hospital to the church. After the service, it would be carried through the streets to the cemetery, he said.

A group of Palestinians at the hospital seized Abu Akleh’s casket in an attempt to begin the impromptu march, beating the hearse that would take her to the Old City with sticks, according to The Washington Post. Abu Akleh’s brother Antoine reportedly sought to calm the crowd and have them return his sister’s body to the hearse.

“For God’s sake, let us put her in the car and finish the day,” he was quoted as saying.

The crowd seized the coffin, leading the Palestinians gathered in the hospital square to cheer, carrying her casket forward. After a brief standoff, police officers rushed the crowd, beating mourners and firing stun grenades. Abu Akleh’s casket almost toppled to the ground during the skirmish.

Israel Police later said that six people had been detained after riots “that had included stone-throwing.”

Video released by Israel Police showed at least one Palestinian hurled an object at Israeli officers before the dispersal began. The footage then showed Palestinians throwing objects at police after officers had moved to disperse the crowd…

Abu Akleh’s body was taken by van, surrounded by a police escort, to the Greek Melkite Church near Jaffa Gate.

[PointOfViewGun]

No matter how you try to twist it hitting people holding a coffin is not the appropriate response. It is not the first time Israelis try to present Palestinians as the sole instigator of violence. Often the security officers taunt or outright attack first, and once the Palestinians respond in kind we have the usual suspects pointing out how violent Palestinians are. Rinse and repeat.

[Infidel144]

It’s notable that this incident was deemed worthy of bumping the thread, yet none among the constant stream of attacks against Israeli civilians was. Although, I do agree with the implied sentiment that Palestinians firing randomly into crowds or chopping up people with axes is simply too common to be considered remarkable.

Regarding the incident itself, there is a context:

Regardless of how you try to spin it, they have a right to seize a coffin and corpse against the wishes of the family, beat on vehicles and hurl an object at those trying to prevent it.
Any response, other than abject submission, to body-snatching rioters people who would take a coffin and corpse is unwarranted, but typical for those who are among worst of creatures...

[Prodromos]

No thoughts on the 14+ Israelis killed by terrorists in the last couple of months, but Israeli police beat up a few rioters and suddenly it's front page news worldwide.

[antaeus]

No thoughts on the 14+ Israelis killed by terrorists in the last couple of months, but Israeli police beat up a few rioters and suddenly it's front page news worldwide.

But... what... about...

[Infidel144]

No thoughts on the 14+ Israelis killed by terrorists in the last couple of months, but Israeli police beat up a few rioters and suddenly it's front page news worldwide.

But what about the righteous execution of 14+ of the worst of creatures at the hands of the best of creation?...

[sumskilz]

But... what... about...

Not at all, because the point isn’t an argument about whether or not the police used excessive force. The point of noting the extreme disparity in media interest, is that it clearly demonstrates that the international outrage isn’t about concern for human well-being, but rather hostility toward Israelis/Jews, which much of the international media both feeds and capitalizes upon.

[antaeus]

Not at all, because the point isn’t an argument about whether or not the police used excessive force. The point of noting the extreme disparity in media interest, is that it clearly demonstrates that the international outrage isn’t about concern for human well-being, but rather hostility toward Israelis/Jews, which much of the international media both feeds and capitalizes upon.

An attempt to discredit a position by bringing an accusation of hypocrisy though comparing past events or reactions is exactly whataboutery. Irrespective of whether there is hypocrisy or not.

In isolation, does the current situation warrant outrage by the world's media? I would argue that odds are it does. So I don't think the outrage is out of place.

Should the world's media be outraged by other things that it sometimes ignores? Sure, why not. There's plenty of outrage that needs to go around. I would argue that the world's media likely do judge Israel's actions more harshly than they do those of people who are dominated by Israel, and that Israeli citizens don't receive a fair and even balance of reporting by much of the world's media, relative to those non-Israeli citizens who live their lives under Israeli dominance. But I would also argue that Israel, being the major governing power in the region should be scrutinised for it's actions, as any democracy that exerts coercive power should.

[sumskilz]

An attempt to discredit a position by bringing an accusation of hypocrisy though comparing past events or reactions is exactly whataboutery.

I'm fairly sure Prodromos was expressing disgust rather than trying to discredit a position, but I can only speak with certainty about my own post, which was utilizing the situation to illustrate an independent point.

In isolation, does the current situation warrant outrage by the world's media? I would argue that odds are it does. So I don't think the outrage is out of place.

Considering the ongoing situation in Israel/Palestine, especially Jerusalem, over the last few months, the incident is barely worth having an opinion about, but more importantly, it can't even really be understood in isolation.

The proximate cause of the current flare-up, is that in the view of many Muslim Palestinians, the presence of Jews defiles al-Haram al-Sharif. That is the Temple Mount, the holiest site in Judaism, on top of which the Dome of the Rock now stands. This is not something new. In fact, in 1929 Arabs killed 133 Jews and injured 339 more because they were upset that some Jews had set some chairs near it. Fast forward to Ramadan every year, but most relevantly this year, and that's when the trouble started. The issue is that many Palestinian men feel that the appropriate way to observe Ramadan is to hurl rocks and bricks down on top of the heads Jews coming to visit the Western Wall. Naturally, the Jerusalem police intervened by clearing the rioters off the top of Temple Mount, but in doing so, since many of them are Jews, they defiled al-Haram al-Sharif even further, leading to yet more Muslim Palestinian outrage. Naturally, the rioters didn't just leave the Temple Mount, but rather physical confrontations ensued, with many rioters and police officers alike being injured, some seriously. So this has gone on day after day, even after the end of Ramadan, for six weeks now.

Meanwhile, many Palestinians have taken it upon themselves to kill random Israeli civilians due to being upset about Jews defiling al-Haram al-Sharif, and this has gone on all over the country. A few students at the university I work have been killed. Of course, the Israeli authorities have tried to track down and take into custody those who have carried out or assisted the terror attacks, and this sometimes leads them into the Palestinian territories where more violence ensues. Shireen Abu Akleh was killed during one such confrontation. It's not yet known if this was by an Israeli or a Palestinian bullet, but it's extremely unlikely that either side would have shot her deliberately.

So then comes the day of her funeral, and her coffin is taken against her family's will by demonstrators who want to make a big political show out of her death. No doubt many of these demonstrators are the same rioters who have been battling the Jerusalem police at the Temple Mount on a daily basis. You can see in the video that around the coffin, there are no women, no older men, no children. It wasn't a funeral procession, at least not the one planned by her family and her Melkite community.

Maybe it would have been better for the police not to intervene, but they are always in a lose/lose situation. Someone will be irate either way, and one of the typical accusations against them is that they allegedly don't enforce the law in predominately Arab areas because they are "racist". In any case, there was apparently a standoff with the demonstrators who had seized the casket. At this point, the police were no doubt expecting violence yet again. Supposedly, they tried to get the demonstrators to hand over the casket, when they say rocks were thrown at them, only one projectile is seen being thrown at them in the video. It looks like one officer charged forward, then those close to him, then the rest. It's not clear whether this was a leader giving an order, an officer that was hit by the projectile, or just some hothead, but in any case, the police are trained to advance in a group and to try shock rioters into retreating. If they get isolated, there is a real danger of them being seriously injured or killed, so that's the way they proceeded.

Did it look like excessive force on the video? Yeah, especially because most of the demonstrators did retreat. Although some did fight and some threw projectiles. Was it possibly started by some hothead officer looking for a fight? Maybe. I'd say it probably would have been better for everyone if the officers could have managed to show more restraint, but considering the situation, the fact that many in their ranks have already been injured over the last few weeks, and that down in the thick of things none of them would have had the clear overall view that we have watching it from the camera, it makes sense that they acted as they did.

The Israeli police commissioner and public security minister have ordered an investigation. It's unlikely that any of the officers will face any sort of serious disciplinary action. It's more likely that recommendations will be drawn up that will be meant to prevent a similar situation from happening in the future. This is the correct course of action in my opinion, and I couldn't care less about the outrage around the world, for the same reason that I don't have excessive empathy for those who would kill me, my family, and many of my friends, simply because of our ethnicity.