Starting Diplomacy Bug

[es157]

Hello.

Is it possible that I'm really dumb for not getting this after years of modding, or is the starting diplomatic relations in descr_strat really buggy and fails to work in seemingly random patterns? Someone please clearify it to me. If I want to make a faction hate me, I must give them -1 of relations with my faction, right? And if I want them to love me, I must give them 1 of relations, right? And 0 is the neutral, right?

In my game, I want england and france to hate each other. So I wrote the following in my descr_strat:

faction_standings france, -1.0 england
faction_standings england, -1.0 france

Yet in-game, it says they have "reasonable" relations with each other at the first turn. I assume "reasonable" relations means neutral (the value corresponding to 0 in the -1 to 1 scale). But why is this happening? This is not the only stance of the bug happening to me, by the way. And it seems to only happen in some specific instances, but not in others. For example, I also want france and the mongols to hate each other, so I have:

faction_standings france, -1.0 mongols
faction_standings mongols, -1.0 france

And in this case, it works. Both factions start with "Abysmal" relations. Why? It doesn't make any sense in my head.

Thanks in advance for any help.

[Callistonian]

The max and min faction standings are defined in descr_faction_standing.txt. In vanilla, the range is -1 to 1. The triggers in this file, or scripts in campaign_script, or other types of scripts can all change faction standings.

[es157]

The max and min faction standings are defined in descr_faction_standing.txt. In vanilla, the range is -1 to 1. The triggers in this file, or scripts in campaign_script, or other types of scripts can all change faction standings.

I've checked the file. The max and min are 1 and -1 for me too, but the problem I'm having is unrelated, apparently. The issue is that a few of the relations I try to establish in descr_strat simply don't stick when the campaign starts. I set two factions to hate each other, but they start as neutral. This only happens to a few of them, and I haven't been able to find the cause.

Maybe this sounds absurd to you. I don't know how common this issue is with other players, but I know I have always had it whenever I tried to mod this part of the game, both in MTW2 and RTW. Both games are the same in this aspect.

I could even show my file entries here if it can be of any help, though I suppose it's too big and repetitive to read through.

Here:

faction_standings england, 1.0 venice
faction_standings england, 0.3 milan, sicily, hungary
faction_standings england, -0.2 portugal
faction_standings england, -0.6 moors, hre, papal_states
faction_standings england, -0.9 normans, byzantium
faction_standings england, -1.0 denmark, france, slave, mongols


faction_standings hungary, 0.6 sicily
faction_standings hungary, 0.3 milan, england, venice
faction_standings hungary, -0.1 moors, portugal
faction_standings hungary, -0.3 normans, byzantium
faction_standings hungary, -0.6 hre, papal_states
faction_standings hungary, -1.0 denmark, france, slave, mongols


faction_standings sicily, 0.6 hungary
faction_standings sicily, 0.3 milan, england, venice
faction_standings sicily, -0.1 moors, portugal
faction_standings sicily, -0.3 normans, byzantium, papal_states
faction_standings sicily, -0.6 hre
faction_standings sicily, -1.0 denmark, france, slave, mongols


faction_standings france, 0.2 denmark, byzantium, normans
faction_standings france, -0.1 portugal
faction_standings france, -0.7 milan
faction_standings france, -0.9 hre
faction_standings france, -1.0 england, venice, hungary, sicily, slave, mongols


faction_standings venice, 1.0 england
faction_standings venice, 0.3 milan, sicily, hungary
faction_standings venice, -0.2 portugal
faction_standings venice, -0.6 moors, hre, papal_states
faction_standings venice, -0.9 normans, byzantium
faction_standings venice, -1.0 denmark, france, slave, mongols


faction_standings milan, 0.3 venice, england, hungary, sicily
faction_standings milan, -0.1 portugal
faction_standings milan, -0.2 normans, byzantium
faction_standings milan, -0.7 france, moors
faction_standings milan, -1.0 denmark, hre, slave, mongols


faction_standings hre, -0.1 portugal, moors
faction_standings hre, -0.4 normans, byzantium
faction_standings hre, -0.6 england, venice, hungary, sicily
faction_standings hre, -0.9 denmark, france
faction_standings hre, -1.0 milan, slave, mongols


faction_standings denmark, 0.6 papal_states
faction_standings denmark, 0.2 france
faction_standings denmark, -0.3 portugal, moors
faction_standings denmark, -0.7 normans, byzantium
faction_standings denmark, -1.0 england, venice, milan, hungary, sicily, slave, mongols


faction_standings portugal, 0.2 confederation
faction_standings portugal, -0.1 france, milan, hungary, sicily, normans, hre
faction_standings portugal, -0.2 england, venice, byzantium
faction_standings portugal, -0.3 denmark
faction_standings portugal, -1.0 slave, mongols


faction_standings moors, 0.8 byzantium, normans
faction_standings moors, 0.2 confederation
faction_standings moors, -0.1 hungary, sicily, hre
faction_standings moors, -0.3 denmark
faction_standings moors, -0.6 england, venice
faction_standings moors, -0.7 milan
faction_standings moors, -1.0 slave, mongols


faction_standings normans, 0.8 moors
faction_standings normans, 0.2 byzantium, france
faction_standings normans, -0.2 milan
faction_standings normans, -0.3 hungary, sicily
faction_standings normans, -0.4 hre
faction_standings normans, -0.7 denmark
faction_standings normans, -0.9 england, venice
faction_standings normans, -1.0 slave, mongols


faction_standings byzantium, 0.8 moors
faction_standings byzantium, 0.2 france, confederation
faction_standings byzantium, 0.1 timurids
faction_standings byzantium, -0.1 daughters
faction_standings byzantium, -0.2 milan, portugal, norvos, qohor
faction_standings byzantium, -0.3 turks, hungary, sicily
faction_standings byzantium, -0.4 hre
faction_standings byzantium, -0.7 denmark
faction_standings byzantium, -0.9 egypt, england, venice
faction_standings byzantium, -1.0 slave, mongols


faction_standings egypt, 0.6 turks
faction_standings egypt, 0.2 qohor, norvos, daughters
faction_standings egypt, 0.1 timurids
faction_standings egypt, -0.9 byzantium
faction_standings egypt, -1.0 slave, mongols


faction_standings turks, 0.6 egypt
faction_standings turks, 0.1 qohor, norvos, daughters
faction_standings turks, -0.1 timurids
faction_standings turks, -0.3 byzantium
faction_standings turks, -1.0 slave, mongols


faction_standings daughters, 0.1 qohor, norvos, turks
faction_standings daughters, -0.1 confederation, byzantium
faction_standings daughters, -1.0 slave


faction_standings confederation, 0.2 byzantium, portugal, moors
faction_standings confederation, -0.1 daughters
faction_standings confederation, -1.0 slave, mongols


faction_standings norvos, 0.3 qohor
faction_standings norvos, 0.1 daughters, turks
faction_standings norvos, -0.2 byzantium
faction_standings norvos, -0.6 timurids
faction_standings norvos, -1.0 slave, mongols


faction_standings qohor, 0.3 norvos
faction_standings qohor, 0.1 daughters, turks
faction_standings qohor, -0.2 byzantium
faction_standings qohor, -0.7 timurids
faction_standings qohor, -1.0 slave, mongols


faction_standings timurids, 0.1 egypt, timurids
faction_standings timurids, -0.1 turks
faction_standings timurids, -0.6 norvos
faction_standings timurids, -0.7 qohor
faction_standings timurids, -1.0 slave, mongols


faction_standings papal_states, 0.6 denmark
faction_standings papal_states, -0.3 sicily
faction_standings papal_states, -0.6 england, venice, hungary
faction_standings papal_states, -1.0 slave, mongols


faction_standings mongols, -1.0 papal_states, hungary, sicily, france, hre, england, portugal, venice, denmark, normans, byzantium, milan, moors, egypt, turks, daughters, confederation, norvos, qohor, confederation, timurids

On the surface, I don't see any typos. So what could be causing a few of those entries to not work and return with a different value in the campaign?

[Callistonian]

Have you checked all of your triggers to make sure none of them are changing the standings at the start of the campaign? Don't just check faction triggers - there may also be triggers that cause different religions or cultures to have certain standings with one another.

[es157]

Have you checked all of your triggers to make sure none of them are changing the standings at the start of the campaign? Don't just check faction triggers - there may also be triggers that cause different religions or cultures to have certain standings with one another.

Could those triggers change the relations at the first turn, i.e. at game start before anything happened?

[Callistonian]

Certainly. They might not even send messages about it. It shouldn't be too hard to tell if triggers are causing the issue or not.

[es157]

Certainly. They might not even send messages about it. It shouldn't be too hard to tell if triggers are causing the issue or not.

I'll do a test by deleting all triggers and seeing if it affects the starting relations.

But since we are at it, could there be a command line to be used via script to settle relations the way I want them to be? This would be helpful too.

[Gigantus]

Use a blank descr_faction_standins.txt file to test if any triggers in there could be the reason for the different starting stances.
Then check if different religions\cultures may have an impact. Like: different culture or religion = neutral. Both different = abysmal.