Suggestions & Ideas

[nemesisvsbrad]

Guys, can we have a unique buildings in each regions like Extended cultures had, for example Rome had Jupiter Maximus Pantheon? If I remember correct, RSIII had this incomplete province buildings, further increasing the immersion. Also I liked building those Hostilla, Fortress etc in RS.

[Geffalrus]

Hellenistic Elite Troops Recruitment Adjustment

Short version: The current pike system in the mod (Levy - Bronze Shields - Silver Shields/Royal Agema), while great and mostly accurate, could stand some slight adjustment to bring it in line with the historical situation in 270BC where the game starts. Primarily changing what the Antigonids have access to at game's start. Unlike the Seleucid and Ptolemaic Dynasties, the Antiognid Dynasty in Macedon had only been in place for a couple years by 270BC, and it is unlikely that they would have the Royal Guard-to-Reservist system in place at this point. I shall now dive into this in more detail......

Longer Version: At the time of Alexander's death in 323 BC, the pike system used by the Macedonian Empire was oriented around the recruitment of fresh Macedonians in the homeland and marching them east for service with Alexander, as well as the marching of old veterans west for retirement in Macedon. Alexander's death upended this system as there would no longer be one Royal Army engaging in endless conquest. Instead, the various regions of the Macedonian Empire split off into Successor Kingdoms that all desperately needed their own share of Macedonian citizens/settlers to make up their own loyal phalanx. For the Seleucids and Ptolemies, this would quickly grow into the Kleruchoi aka Military Settlement system whereby Greco-Macedonian (and others) colonists were given land grants in Syria or Egypt on the condition that the men of that family provided military service for the king.

From that military settlement grew the Royal Guard system whereby the children of those settlers, when they reached adulthood, had mandatory service in the presence of the king. These young settlers formed part of the standing army of the kingdom, and received the best training available. They would the elite portion of the phalanx, traditionally deployed on the right. This sets them apart from the elite phalanx units of the Wars of the Diadochi, who were composed of old (sometimes VERY old) veterans. The benefit of this system beyond providing a well-trained standing army, was that it theoretically bound the military settlers to the person of the king through proximity, service, and patronage. After their term of service, the settlers went back to their lands, until war was called and they would be drawn back to service in the Reservist phalanx. The Reservists would have their experience from their time in the Royal Guard, no doubt refreshed by some time spent practicing when mustered, but would not be at their physical peak.

All in all, it was a pretty good system that maximized the military potential of a small pool of Greco-Macedonian colonists in foreign lands. It is also what was used by the Antigonids in Macedon proper. They may have had the homeland, but the population was much depleted by years and years of war. So the Antigonids still needed a system that maximized a limited population and bound it to the dynasty. In their case, they called their reserves the Bronze Shields just like the Seleucids did, but called their Royal Guard phalanx the Peltasts, while the best of the Peltasts would be alternatively the Agema or the Nicatores (The Conquerors). And you can see that already in game, with those names spread between various elite phalanx, elite javelin/sword, and elite spear units. The units look fantastic, and the unit stats all make sense. As such, my only suggested change is in how you access them.

As I indicated earlier, the Seleucid and Ptolemaic dynasties had already been in place for close to 40 years by the time the game starts. It makes perfect sense for them to have access to all levels of Levy, Royal Guard, and Reservist phalanx. For the Antigonids, however, they have not been in power that long; there is no system in place to organize the army in such a fashion. Two years ago, Pyrrhus of Epirus ruled Macedon, two years before that, Antigonos ruled briefly after winning the Battle of Lysimacheia, before which it had been overrun by Gauls after they killed the previous king, Ptolemy Ceraunos who had killed Seleucus to.......anyway, it's very complicated. The last reasonably stable period had been from 310-297 BC under the rule of Cassander of the Antipatrid dynasty. Macedon had been in a state of upheaval for almost 2 decades, which probably prevented any of the competing dynasties from setting up a system like the settler-to-royal-guard-to-reservist pipleline.

So when you have Antigonus Gonatas in power in 270BC, he is probably not working with an army based on the settler system used by later Antigonid kings or the current Seleucid/Ptolemaic kings. Instead, he is probably relying on two things while he puts that system into place:

1) Veteran Macedonian Phalangites under arms
2) Greek/Galatian/Thracian/Illyrian/etc mercenaries

Mercenaries would have been extremely common at this point in time. The constant upheaval in Macedon provided the perfect employment zone for wandering mercenaries as there was always an army interested in their services. The veteran phalangites come from the fact that Antigonus had recently enrolled a portion of the army of Pyrrhus of Epirus after his death in Argos. Pyrrhus, for his part, had been using some number of transient Macedonian veterans in his army. When preparing for his expedition against Rome, Pyrrhus had received all sorts of gifts from the neighboring Diadochi to help him, because a Pyrrhus in Italy is WAY BETTER than a Pyrrhus on your border. And these gifts included a few thousand Macedonian phalangites. Additionally, after Pyrrhus returned from Italy and invaded Macedon, he had defeated Antigonus in battle and press-ganged a portion of the Antigonid phalanx into his army (common practice of the Diadochi). As such, in 270BC, Antigonus has received an eclectic mixture of experienced Macedonian phalangites collected together from all sorts of wars in the region. In a way, these phalangites would be a relic from the chaotic wars of the Diadochi, soon to be left behind as the three major successor kingdoms of Macedon, Syria, and Egypt solidified their hold over their territories.

So, my more detailed suggestion is that the Antigonid start situation be changed to this:

1) Remove the Agema phalanx unit and all levy phalanx units.
2) Instead of the Agema, the Antigonids start off with a few Mercenary Phalanx units with some chevrons or whatever. They can't build more, but they're decently tough.
3) Instead of the levy phalanx units, the various cities are instead garrisoned by some combination of Thracian or Galatian mercenaries, or Thureophoroi.
4) Replace the Barracks in Pella with a lower one that does not yet allow for the training of Bronze Shields, Agema pikes, elite infantry, etc.

I would argue that this would move the Antigonid campaign a bit to be more like the situation you find yourself in with the Europa Barbarorum 2 mod (one of the more interesting campaign starts). Is this urgent or absolutely necessary? No. I think it would hopefully be a minor change that would make the start situation more historically accurate. But not exactly make or break.

Cheers,
Geffalrus

[Maurits]

Hellenistic Elite Troops Recruitment Adjustment

Short version: The current pike system in the mod (Levy - Bronze Shields - Silver Shields/Royal Agema), while great and mostly accurate, could stand some slight adjustment to bring it in line with the historical situation in 270BC where the game starts. Primarily changing what the Antigonids have access to at game's start. Unlike the Seleucid and Ptolemaic Dynasties, the Antiognid Dynasty in Macedon had only been in place for a couple years by 270BC, and it is unlikely that they would have the Royal Guard-to-Reservist system in place at this point. I shall now dive into this in more detail......

Longer Version: At the time of Alexander's death in 323 BC, the pike system used by the Macedonian Empire was oriented around the recruitment of fresh Macedonians in the homeland and marching them east for service with Alexander, as well as the marching of old veterans west for retirement in Macedon. Alexander's death upended this system as there would no longer be one Royal Army engaging in endless conquest. Instead, the various regions of the Macedonian Empire split off into Successor Kingdoms that all desperately needed their own share of Macedonian citizens/settlers to make up their own loyal phalanx. For the Seleucids and Ptolemies, this would quickly grow into the Kleruchoi aka Military Settlement system whereby Greco-Macedonian (and others) colonists were given land grants in Syria or Egypt on the condition that the men of that family provided military service for the king.

From that military settlement grew the Royal Guard system whereby the children of those settlers, when they reached adulthood, had mandatory service in the presence of the king. These young settlers formed part of the standing army of the kingdom, and received the best training available. They would the elite portion of the phalanx, traditionally deployed on the right. This sets them apart from the elite phalanx units of the Wars of the Diadochi, who were composed of old (sometimes VERY old) veterans. The benefit of this system beyond providing a well-trained standing army, was that it theoretically bound the military settlers to the person of the king through proximity, service, and patronage. After their term of service, the settlers went back to their lands, until war was called and they would be drawn back to service in the Reservist phalanx. The Reservists would have their experience from their time in the Royal Guard, no doubt refreshed by some time spent practicing when mustered, but would not be at their physical peak.

All in all, it was a pretty good system that maximized the military potential of a small pool of Greco-Macedonian colonists in foreign lands. It is also what was used by the Antigonids in Macedon proper. They may have had the homeland, but the population was much depleted by years and years of war. So the Antigonids still needed a system that maximized a limited population and bound it to the dynasty. In their case, they called their reserves the Bronze Shields just like the Seleucids did, but called their Royal Guard phalanx the Peltasts, while the best of the Peltasts would be alternatively the Agema or the Nicatores (The Conquerors). And you can see that already in game, with those names spread between various elite phalanx, elite javelin/sword, and elite spear units. The units look fantastic, and the unit stats all make sense. As such, my only suggested change is in how you access them.

As I indicated earlier, the Seleucid and Ptolemaic dynasties had already been in place for close to 40 years by the time the game starts. It makes perfect sense for them to have access to all levels of Levy, Royal Guard, and Reservist phalanx. For the Antigonids, however, they have not been in power that long; there is no system in place to organize the army in such a fashion. Two years ago, Pyrrhus of Epirus ruled Macedon, two years before that, Antigonos ruled briefly after winning the Battle of Lysimacheia, before which it had been overrun by Gauls after they killed the previous king, Ptolemy Ceraunos who had killed Seleucus to.......anyway, it's very complicated. The last reasonably stable period had been from 310-297 BC under the rule of Cassander of the Antipatrid dynasty. Macedon had been in a state of upheaval for almost 2 decades, which probably prevented any of the competing dynasties from setting up a system like the settler-to-royal-guard-to-reservist pipleline.

So when you have Antigonus Gonatas in power in 270BC, he is probably not working with an army based on the settler system used by later Antigonid kings or the current Seleucid/Ptolemaic kings. Instead, he is probably relying on two things while he puts that system into place:

1) Veteran Macedonian Phalangites under arms
2) Greek/Galatian/Thracian/Illyrian/etc mercenaries

Mercenaries would have been extremely common at this point in time. The constant upheaval in Macedon provided the perfect employment zone for wandering mercenaries as there was always an army interested in their services. The veteran phalangites come from the fact that Antigonus had recently enrolled a portion of the army of Pyrrhus of Epirus after his death in Argos. Pyrrhus, for his part, had been using some number of transient Macedonian veterans in his army. When preparing for his expedition against Rome, Pyrrhus had received all sorts of gifts from the neighboring Diadochi to help him, because a Pyrrhus in Italy is WAY BETTER than a Pyrrhus on your border. And these gifts included a few thousand Macedonian phalangites. Additionally, after Pyrrhus returned from Italy and invaded Macedon, he had defeated Antigonus in battle and press-ganged a portion of the Antigonid phalanx into his army (common practice of the Diadochi). As such, in 270BC, Antigonus has received an eclectic mixture of experienced Macedonian phalangites collected together from all sorts of wars in the region. In a way, these phalangites would be a relic from the chaotic wars of the Diadochi, soon to be left behind as the three major successor kingdoms of Macedon, Syria, and Egypt solidified their hold over their territories.

So, my more detailed suggestion is that the Antigonid start situation be changed to this:

1) Remove the Agema phalanx unit and all levy phalanx units.
2) Instead of the Agema, the Antigonids start off with a few Mercenary Phalanx units with some chevrons or whatever. They can't build more, but they're decently tough.
3) Instead of the levy phalanx units, the various cities are instead garrisoned by some combination of Thracian or Galatian mercenaries, or Thureophoroi.
4) Replace the Barracks in Pella with a lower one that does not yet allow for the training of Bronze Shields, Agema pikes, elite infantry, etc.

I would argue that this would move the Antigonid campaign a bit to be more like the situation you find yourself in with the Europa Barbarorum 2 mod (one of the more interesting campaign starts). Is this urgent or absolutely necessary? No. I think it would hopefully be a minor change that would make the start situation more historically accurate. But not exactly make or break.

Cheers,
Geffalrus

Thanks for this extensive suggestion, we will take it into consideration. Be assured that this is still a very early point of development, and we plan to do much more to increase a historically accurate, challenging and fun gameplay as far as possible in future!

[Mikhail Stepanoff]

Bactria, Bactria, oh my lovely Bactria!

[Kanov]

Hi,

How are you handling the Roman Legions in this version?

I don't know if it is possible but what about making the first cohort a recruitable GENERAL unit and then through scripting magic (I'm such a neophyte in scripting so pardon my ignorance), make those recruited 1st cohort general units able to gain ancillaries related to the Legion, like:

-The first one of the retinues would be of course the actual name of the legion, spawn at the time of creation and unique to the faction. Or if it is possible, the actual name of the general created could be the name of the legion (instead of Maximus Meridius, the name on the character details would read Legio X Equestris)
-Then based on performance the Recruited General Unit (RGU) 1st cohort could gain Legion specific traits like (I don't know if monitors or conditions for all these suggestions exist so I apologise if they are far fetched): if they don't rout there's a % chance for the unit to gain the trait Constans, or if they conquer a revolted city from yours they can gain the epithet "Pia Fidelis" (dutiful and loyal) and gain +1 morale or something, or if they win an heroic victory they can add "Victrix" (Victorious) to their name etc. So your legions have truly a sense of personalization and they are not fixed, tied to the normal historical names. Lots of these epithets were awarded for duty in Combat and were not part of their original name. Maybe if they rout they are stripped out of an Ephitet or add an invented one like "Infamia" (disgraced) giving a -1 morale or something you know, you can get really creative.
-If you can, then you could tie the creation of the unit and its ancillaries to like buildings or regions, I envision (if it is possible) to recruit a legion in a city and get different names based on % chances of the building present in the city + the actual city + maybe the cognomen of the faction leader?, so you could end up with a name like "Legio I Capricornius" (supossing the game rolled a dice internally and there is a building there that gives you access to the epithet Capricornius because of a building) in your first recruited unit and then the next could be "Legio II Antonina" (maybe because the Faction leader at that moment was called Servius Antonius Morulatus or something)
-Of course these RGU 1st cohorts would not, or rather SHOULD not be able to gain normal Character traits, vices or retinues, only those pertaining to Legions (maybe even make them immortal using the alex property so they do not die of old age? just a wild idea)
-Or maybe just keep using the ancillary or the AOR system you guys have used. I liked that idea very much and was such a great treat when first applied.

Thanks for doing this mod.

[Dansk viking]

Hey there,

Just tried out the new version, and it's looking really good! I have a few suggestions though:


- I don't think you should use the shieldwall ability; that is, it shouldn't be set as the standard formation for hoplites or similar units (you can still keep it as an option for players). Why? Because the AI can't use it properly, and in general it oftentimes puts the unit at a significant disadvantage due the fact that it gets surrounded as a result of the ability's forward push and narrower front: It basically outflanks itself.


- Instead of using the shieldwall ability, you can try to modify the unit stats as explained here (my tweaks for the Hegemonia City States mod) for a better representation of hoplite warfare.

The key is in setting these values in the EDU:

soldier          hoplites, 60, 0, 1.3, 0.3
formation        0.8, 0.8, 2, 2, 8,square, shield_wall

The 0.3 is soldier spacing when engaged in offensive melee. The 0.8, 0.8 is soldier spacing when at rest or in defend mode.

There's usually only three numbers in the soldier row, but you can add another number which changes the spacing when engaged offensively. E.g. if you've set the solder spacing in the "formation" row to be tight, they will usually still blob out when actively engaging. This extra number in the "soldier" row will remedy that. Be careful though, setting it too low will make your soldiers morph together.


- In general it seems to me that units have way too good morale and/or too high defence stats, so engagements last for too long, even when one side is completely outflanked and -matched. I know that this is a subject where opinions differ of course.

[Alavaria]

- Instead of using the shieldwall ability, you can try to modify the unit stats as explained here (my tweaks for the Hegemonia City States mod) for a better representation of hoplite warfare.

Thanks for this great information & suggestion, we're looking at this now

[Kranos]

Can you guys port/use models from Medieval II, Rome II and Atilla mods? If so pls consider significantly revamping a bit a very common unit used by so many faction: The Thorakitai. They are like the upgraded version of thureophoroi right and should get a bit more attention that would benefit many factions roster


I would like for them to use other thracian style helmets variations like the so called Ascalon variation. The russian guys from Natus ob Imperium mod (with whom you had some disagreement back in the day about models usage) have released their unfinished version of their hellenistic timeframe mod for Medieval II kingdoms. One of the thing that stood to me where their hellenistic helmets like the Ascalon, the best depiction of it IMO. I haven't seen these on other total war mod or Mount and Blade mod and I think their are original made from scratch:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Maybe you guys can get the permission to use some of these models:
Natus ob Imperium mod for Medieval II: Total War: Kingdoms - Mod DB
Natus_ob_Imperium 04.12.16.7z — Яндекс.Диск (yandex.ru)


Aside from Ascalon variation. The guys from age of Empires like strategy game 0 AD Wildfire games team have also made some very nice depiction of hellenistic helmets. which are ofc optimized for the game so not many details:


Mount and Blade Rome at War team as well. Helmets done by rgcotl:



Different phalangites units for Seleucid and Ptolemaic, could also use some new hellenistic helmets from the awesome mods of Rome II and Atilla. Clothing and equipment as well. I will come later with the precise units I'm talking about.

Overall I was never so excited from the Rome II anouncement.

[Kranos]

And a suggestion on the Seleucid faction symbol. I see you guys kept the Roma Surrectum II stylized anchor. Never been a fan of that. Don't know if its a reinterpretation of the historical seleucid symbols but I suggest-in case you want something more stylized- these kind of interpretations:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As of it's colour pls finally venture off from the vanilla grey-ish range of colours. if anyhting seleucids were the coulourful armies of the time. Pls choose something more royal

[apple]

I doubt we will change them. But feel free to do so yourself and upload it as a submod.

[Ballacraine]

A bit of an old chestnut this one, but still potentially an issue for many.

Would it be possible to put a tick box in the Game Settings to set the default movement speed to walk?

[Ballacraine]

I asked this earlier, but with the most recent update to the vanilla game, I would like to ask the question again.
Is there some way to upgrade an experienced Hastati unit to a Principe unit?
TBH I find it is a bit immersion breaking to have a highly experienced Hastati unit.

As a corollary to that, if it is possible to in turn upgrade a Principe unit to Triarii.

Surely it is counter intuitive to have an inexperienced Triarii unit?

[bob01]

From what I saw on Discord it looks like the plan is to make a whole host of small, independent, Greek factions based on single cities. Is this really "historical?"

The game begins in 270 BCE. The Achaean League formed in 280 BCE to resist Macedonian aggression and the Aetolian League was already in existence. Wouldn't these two "leagues" be a more historical representation of the situation during the 3d century BCE?

I can envision Macedonia quickly overrunning these individual Greek cities and turning themselves into a real powerhouse as a result.

[apple]

You can do that in RR. In battle hold the spacebar. Many options will show up like changing default to walk for example.

[apple]

Possible to do with scripts but that's about it. And we don't plan to do so atm due to manpower.

[Ballacraine]

Ah, an interesting little nugget there.

Thanks a lot.

[hazza52]

While the wall of historical text is interesting when I right click on a building I am usually looking for gameplay information. Such as building and maintenance costs, unit types trained, income generated, culture benefits etc. Maybe lead with that kind of information and then follow up the historical expansion.

[Quintus Metellus]

Hello everyone!
I recently installed this lovely mod for the remastered version.
I noticed that it is only in English and since it is a complex game, I think that if it could be translated into different languages, this mod could give the maximum!
I don't not know if it is feasible but if you want I could help in the translation at least as regards my language (Italian).
Thanks for your attention.

[apple]

Hi, we as a team have no time for translations plus we keep changing things in a very rapid fashion but anyone can create a submod with translations if they so want to.

[Quentin101]

Hello everyone
The building mechanic of the mod: When Worlds Collide or WWC Diadochi from leoni and the building icon from the EB mod on the map are insane !!!
Do you think to use it ? and other thing from other mod ?